OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread

[Marlowe]

It depends on what you consider Andi's assigned duties.
A. Fixing the Ship
OR
B. Making sure the ship doesn't crash.

She is the CHIEF ENGINEER. Her duty is A. B is the job of a bridge officer. She is NOT this.

There's no "depends" here.

[dancrilis]

She is the CHIEF ENGINEER. Her duty is A. B is the job of a bridge officer. She is NOT this.

There's no "depends" here.

I could have elaborated B to 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure' if that makes it suit your narrative better.

[Marlowe]

"My" Narrative?

In that case, there is also no "depends", because she is shirking BOTH duties. While interfering in Bandana's performance of duty.

[Vynn]

Should be obvious, but in doubt her only duty is to do whatever the ship's captain wants of her.

[dancrilis]

"My" Narrative?

Different people can read the same thing and pick up different things from it - sometimes the text will show some of them that they were wrong but other times it will not, as such your reading of the text might differ than the authors (and many other peoples).
As such me refering to 'your narrative' is merely me fixing my earlier statement to suit what I saw as your reading of it - I did not convey my intention to you correctly by saying 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash' so I changed it to 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure'.

In that case, there is also no "depends", because she is shirking BOTH duties. While interfering in Bandana's performance of duty.

Not really 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure' includes not preventing mechanical failures from occuring, and Giants throwing rocks could have resulted in a mechanical failure - under that she would have been doing it duty in a proactive manner.

[Spellbreaker26]

Not really 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure' includes not preventing mechanical failures from occuring, and Giants throwing rocks could have resulted in a mechanical failure - under that she would have been doing it duty in a proactive manner.

In that case she should have taken over before the ship left port; after all, the only surefire way to make sure that mechanical failures don't occcur is to never let the ship fly...

In reality, mechanics are employed to make sure that the ship keeps running while it's doing what it's supposed to be doing. In this case, the ship is supposed to be ferrying a group of people to their destinations so they can save the world.

[pendell]

Bandana's alive! Yay!

Looks like the team is trying to handle this like a family rather than a crew, and not everyone is onboard with Andi's action. Regardless, the ship needs one CO at the moment rather than a committee.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Marlowe]

Different people can read the same thing and pick up different things from it - sometimes the text will show some of them that they were wrong but other times it will not, as such your reading of the text might differ than the authors (and many other peoples).
As such me refering to 'your narrative' is merely me fixing my earlier statement to suit what I saw as your reading of it - I did not convey my intention to you correctly by saying 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash' so I changed it to 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure'.

Do you agree that;
1, Andi, the chief engineer, debated with Bandana, the captain, as to the conning of the vessel, the Mechane then being under attack and in a tense situation.
2, Bandana rejected Andi's input, and reprimanded her for not attending to her duties.
3, Andi assaulted and incapacitated Bandana.

Do you debate this? Because this is the only "narrative" I need. The one the Giant wrote.

Not really 'Making sure the ship doesn't crash due to mechanical failure' includes not preventing mechanical failures from occuring, and Giants throwing rocks could have resulted in a mechanical failure - under that she would have been doing it duty in a proactive manner.

By this logic, Andi would be justified in preventing the vessel from ever taking off ever again, on the grounds that something might happen to it. Her duties are to repair the vessel and ensuring to the best of her ability that it may follow the maneuvers ordered by the officer of the bridge. Interfering with this officer in the performance of their duty is outside her duty and, since it comes while neglecting her own, grossly unprofessional.

This hardly matters. Because responding to a reprimand from a superior by assaulting them is both grossly unprofessional and an action of serious immaturity.

[Peelee]

Objectively, we can say Bandana's leadership has not been good because it led to her getting hit in the head with a wrench.

That's some dangerous logic right there.

That's an important management lesson for us all - never ignore an employee's grievances. You don't have to give in to those grievances, but you do need to address them, because otherwise you're just ignoring a problem that will only grow bigger and bring down the whole team.

Bandana did address Andi's grievances. When Andi complained about not getting paid, Bandana agreed, and they got paid.When Andi wanted to turn around and try a different route, Bandana disagreed and explained why. When Andi wanted to turn off the marked pass into a side route, Bandana disagreed and explained why.

Please, show me Bandana ignoring her employee's grievances.

[Stabbey]

What a fun episode. Hopefully, Elan can cast another Mending spell. I presume so, but there is trouble if he can't.

If I remember right, Bards cast their spells like sorcerers - they have a limit of X casts of X level spells, but can cast any spell they know as long as they have enough casts left for that spell level. And since I believe that's the first spell Elan's cast on this day, so...

[Keltest]

If I remember right, Bards cast their spells like sorcerers - they have a limit of X casts of X level spells, but can cast any spell they know as long as they have enough casts left for that spell level. And since I believe that's the first spell Elan's cast on this day, so...

You remember correctly. Unless Elan has been throwing around bard spells left and right off screen, He can probably still fix it. The question is, will it be in time?

[dancrilis]

In that case she should have taken over before the ship left port; after all, the only surefire way to make sure that mechanical failures don't occcur is to never let the ship fly...

By this logic, Andi would be justified in preventing the vessel from ever taking off ever again, on the grounds that something might happen to it.

There is a difference between allowing a ship to continue to be exposed to damage and allowing a situation where the ship may or may not be exposed to damage.
Your arguements could be argued but they are not the arguement I made.

ensuring to the best of her ability that it may follow the maneuvers ordered by the officer of the bridge.

Which she may have deemed only to be possible if the officer on the bridge was removed from command.

Interfering with this officer in the performance of their duty is outside her duty and, since it comes while neglecting her own, grossly unprofessional.

Not as you have laid it out.
If she has a duty to 'ensuring to the best of her ability that it may follow the maneuvers ordered by the officer of the bridge' and the officer on the bridge gives the order that they need to complete the pass which she believes to be impossible for the ship to survive that the solution is to alter the orders which can be done via altering the officer.

Please, show me Bandana ignoring her employee's grievances.

Here Andi has a grievance that while she was working all night to prevent the ship crashing into the water, than all day supervising intrusive strangers on the ship (with an indication that she would be also working all night to ensure a dawn journey) - Bandana was not engaged in any such even general supervision activity (for example to note saboteurs, resolving disputes between her staff and the gnomes etc).

[Marlowe]

So, dancrilis, your argument is essentially that anyone, at any time, can disobey any order they like; even up to assaulting superiors, simply because they think they have a better idea.

NO.

As for your example of "Bandana ignoring Andi's grievances", you've both totally misrepresented the conversation ("crashing into the water? WHAT?) but failed to understand the nature of command. It is NOT Bandana's job to be supervising repairs. That's what Andi is for. Andi's "grievance" is little more than impertinent snark at having to do her JOB.

[IntelectPaladin]

Oh, this won't end well. This doesn't seem like it will end well.
The Giant has come at us with surprises much worse than this before,
so I can't help but feel like the worst is yet to come.
And that we will never see it coming.
I would just love to be wrong about this,
so I'll just hold out a bit of hope until then.
Where there's life, there's hope. Then again, that statement makes an assumption...
Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a better day!

[dancrilis]

So, dancrilis, your argument is essentially that anyone, at any time, can disobey any order they like; even up to assaulting superiors, simply because they think they have a better idea.

NO.

That is for the rest of the crew to decide - and you are mischaracterising the scenario not 'simply a better idea' but a firm belief that the lives of them and all other people required it.

For example was the mutiny in Crimson Tide justified, there are different sides to this and I am not picking one but I can see them and understand where people are coming from.

As for your example of "Bandana ignoring Andi's grievances", you've both totally misrepresented the conversation ("crashing into the water? WHAT?) but failed to understand the nature of command. It is NOT Bandana's job to be supervising repairs. That's what Andi is for. Andi's "grievance" is little more than impertinent snark at having to do her JOB.

Bandana might not have been able to supervise repairs but Bandana knows that Elan's father might come after them (she assumed as much here), she also should know that Julio has enemies (Julio implies here he has more impressive villians), and she can likely assume that a powerful group of adventurers will also have other enemies.
As such her being present at the ship to watch for saboteurs etc while Andi focuses on repairs while strangers are around is not unreasonable - but she didn't do that (also it was the perfect opportunity to be 'in charge' of a situation without issue and build up the crews trust in her command).
Effectively she left Andi in charge for the day (after she had worked all night and commited to working all night again) - as such any issues of any nature became Andi's responsibility to decide (even if none came up).

("crashing into the water? WHAT?)

Bandana flat out admits that would have happened without Andi's late night work.

Had Bandana responded here to Haley's invite with "thanks but I need to be around so the crew gets used to me as Captain, and I need to plan our operations for the next few months, and I need to ensure that there are no issues with the Gnomes - outside of repairs which Andi can cover if she doesn't lose it due to sleep deprivation, and :) ... well you get the idea" my issues with her captaincy would be much reduced.

[tjcross]

Snip due to links I can' post.

Had Bandana responded #0966 here to Haley's invite with "thanks but I need to be around so the crew gets used to me as Captain, and I need to plan our operations for the next few months, and I need to ensure that there are no issues with the Gnomes - outside of repairs which Andi can cover if she doesn't lose it due to sleep deprivation, and :) ... well you get the idea" my issues with her captaincy would be much reduced.

Yes, because we all know everyone is perfect and will always do exactly what can be seen clearly with hindsight. Bandana was a competent beginning captain with a crewmember who was determined to do things herown way instead of the captains and being needlessly personal and aggerssive at every opprotunity she had to the point of ignoring her work to whine at the captain instead of keeping the ship fixed. You can try to justify this any way you want, but Andi has through your example patched up the ship in times of dire need to avoid sinking in the ocean so I think she can handle a few cracked planks and holes from boulders.

I do not understand where your blind defense of Andi is coming from, but she is the one most at fault for continually poking and prodding to get a reaction out of Bandana. Andi is nothing but a petulant bully while Bandana while not the most effective was trying to be the better person until she couldn't take Andi's bull anymore.

[KorvinStarmast]

The bridge of a ship in a crisis is no time or place for a debate. A ship in GENERAL is no place for a debate. Bandana had the right to expect that the crew would attend to their assigned duties (in Andi's case this means fixing things) and follow her orders. Andi was doing neither and Bandana was entirely right to call her out on it.

Correct.

Not that this should matter, because in what universe is it acceptable to assault a superior because they spoke to you sharply for shirking your duties?

In a universe dominated by Millenials, or a 'verse dreamed up by dancrilis.

Seriously, the apologia for negligence, picking the wrong time to air a grievance (during combat on the bridge of the ship), direct insubordination, and mutiny ... is both lame and uninformed. (Note for dancrilis: in Crimson Tide, Gene Hackman's Captain was the one violating the book, hence the grudging support for the XO from from C.O.B! Not so in Bandana's case. Andi is violating multiple duties and rules).

Mateo's frustration is well earned, since Andi (senior officer present with the Captain incapacitated for any reason) has ordered a course deviation from the charted course into shoal water. Uncharted waters ... usually a sign of trouble.

Thought:

Based on a previous post about Wis, Int, and Cha, it occurs to me that Andi's dump stat is as likely to be Wis as Cha. Her competence as a mechanic/engineer is already established, so I'll guess here Int is solid. Plenty of smart people lack sense/common sense/judgment. Her lack of judgment argues for Wis being low.

for Keltest:

You remember correctly. Unless Elan has been throwing around bard spells left and right off screen, He can probably still fix it. The question is, will it be in time?

So long as it's in the Nick of Time, Elan's following his calling as a bard and the mentorship of Julio will be confirmed.

[ManuelSacha]

"Aaaahh, Schoolmateicide!
One of my finest spells.
Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't just kill everyone you went to high school with, but also anyone you went to junior high, primary school and kindergarten with.
It's meant for those people who value friendship more than family, or that just had a bigger impact on their peers than on their offspring.
Also, I was kinda bored with Familicide. It seems everyone is using it, nowadays.
I really shouldn't have let those fiends Soul Splice me to that verbose androgynous elf.
I hope s/he didn't steal anything else from my repertoire."

[Keltest]

That is for the rest of the crew to decide - and you are mischaracterising the scenario not 'simply a better idea' but a firm belief that the lives of them and all other people required it.

For example was the mutiny in Crimson Tide justified, there are different sides to this and I am not picking one but I can see them and understand where people are coming from.

Lest you have forgotten, theyre pirates who regularly pick fights with a bloodthirsty tyrant with an entirely disproportionate sense of revenge. This cannot possibly be the first time that they've been in danger, and yet you don't see Julio walking around on deck with a helmet on all the time.

Bandana might not have been able to supervise repairs but Bandana knows that Elan's father might come after them (she assumed as much here), she also should know that Julio has enemies (Julio implies here he has more impressive villians), and she can likely assume that a powerful group of adventurers will also have other enemies.
As such her being present at the ship to watch for saboteurs etc while Andi focuses on repairs while strangers are around is not unreasonable - but she didn't do that (also it was the perfect opportunity to be 'in charge' of a situation without issue and build up the crews trust in her command).
Effectively she left Andi in charge for the day (after she had worked all night and commited to working all night again) - as such any issues of any nature became Andi's responsibility to decide (even if none came up).

What are you even trying to prove here? Andi would have had to have done exactly what she did regardless of where Bandana was, what she was doing or who she was doing it with. That's part of her JOB as chief engineer.

Bandana flat out admits that would have happened without Andi's late night work.

Had Bandana responded here to Haley's invite with "thanks but I need to be around so the crew gets used to me as Captain, and I need to plan our operations for the next few months, and I need to ensure that there are no issues with the Gnomes - outside of repairs which Andi can cover if she doesn't lose it due to sleep deprivation, and :) ... well you get the idea" my issues with her captaincy would be much reduced.

You do realize that the crew (sans Andi, who's presence was required on ship) got to go ashore as well, right? Youre suggesting that Bandana should have taken advantage of shore leave... to seclude herself and do more work? Theyre about to leave on a journey for, at the very least, days of largely uneventful travel time. That is plenty of time for her to plan what they will do after they drop the Order off, and secluding herself on the ship will not make the crew "more used to her". It will just change Andi's complaint to "you sat alone in Julio's cabin doing who knows what instead of joining your crew."

[Marlowe]

It is not "up to the rest of the crew to decide". All units and organisations; ESPECIALLY ships, have set duties, responsibilities, and heirarchies. These are so people know what they have to do in a crisis (or even in routine matters) and do not step on others toes in doing so.

I work with elderly people. My job is to keep them comfortable, fed, clean, and in possession of their health and dignity. It is not my job to distribute or administer medicine or drugs. No matter how "firm" my belief is that such might be required. If I exceed my responsibilities by doing so I will be fired and probably face criminal charges. If I do the equivalent of what Andi has done, neglect my own duties to argue with the person responsible, assault and incapacitate said specialist, and then do what my "firm belief" tells me to do, I am most certainly going in the slammer.

And this is taking place in a context where there is much more time to make debate and discuss than there is on a ship in the middle of a fight.

This covers only routine, default duties and responsibilities, still more when direct orders are involved. And Bandana gave Andi a direct order. After giving rather more acknowledgment of her objections than were required of a captain speaking to a subordinate.

Andi has utterly failed to understand the power structure under which she's lived. She's been loyal to the man rather than the position of captain.

Your other comments are totally irrelevant to the discussion. Your uninformed second-guessing of Bandana and Andi's skill as a chief engineer (the very role she chose to neglect in order to pull this stunt) do nothing to justify anything.

[Peelee]

Here Andi has a grievance that while she was working all night to prevent the ship crashing into the water, than all day supervising intrusive strangers on the ship (with an indication that she would be also working all night to ensure a dawn journey) - Bandana was not engaged in any such even general supervision activity (for example to note saboteurs, resolving disputes between her staff and the gnomes etc).

They'd contracted gnomes to fix the ship. Andi didn't need to hang around, she just wanted to. She can't complain to the captain about work she doesn't need to do yet volunteers for anyway. Well, imean she can, but it's a crap complaint.

[littlebum2002]

I work with elderly people. My job is to keep them comfortable, fed, clean, and in possession of their health and dignity. It is not my job to distribute or administer medicine or drugs. No matter how "firm" my belief is that such might be required. If I exceed my responsibilities by doing so I will be fired and probably face criminal charges. If I do the equivalent of what Andi has done, neglect my own duties to argue with the person responsible, assault and incapacitate said specialist, and then do what my "firm belief" tells me to do, I am most certainly going in the slammer.

Right, but you're forgetting the fact that this is a pirate ship. If the majority of the crew believes Andi was correct, and that Bandana deserved to be overthrown, then Andi will be fine and possibly will become captain.

I mean, I may be wrong, but I don't think the second-in-command at the elderly care facility can take over control of the facility by killing/incapacitating the person in charge, so it's not exactly a perfect comparison.

[Marlowe]

Similarly, my RN isn't actually going to hang me or make me walk the plank for violating my ethical responsibilities. She's just going to fire my ass and call the police. Chaosism cuts both ways.

[Keltest]

Right, but you're forgetting the fact that this is a pirate ship. If the majority of the crew believes Andi was correct, and that Bandana deserved to be overthrown, then Andi will be fine and possibly will become captain.

I mean, I may be wrong, but I don't think the second-in-command at the elderly care facility can take over control of the facility by killing/incapacitating the person in charge, so it's not exactly a perfect comparison.

As a general rule, pirate ships were, if anything, even more tightly run than regular ships. besides the usual problems they had, they also had the whole "everyone fears and reviles us" thing going for them. Unless your captain was genuinely incompetent and dangerous to the crew, Klingon promotions were not any more common on pirate ships than other ships.

[Spellbreaker26]

As a general rule, pirate ships were, if anything, even more tightly run than regular ships. besides the usual problems they had, they also had the whole "everyone fears and reviles us" thing going for them. Unless your captain was genuinely incompetent and dangerous to the crew, Klingon promotions were not any more common on pirate ships than other ships.

Indeed. Some pirates even had laws governing the compensation for injuries sustained during the course of their activities.

I'm starting to rethink my characterization of pirates as chaotic, come to think of it.

[dancrilis]

You can try to justify this any way you want, but Andi has through your example patched up the ship in times of dire need to avoid sinking in the ocean so I think she can handle a few cracked planks and holes from boulders.

Alternatively if the person that can keep it patched up in one time of dire need says they are doomed if they continue as they are perhaps they should be listened too.

... or a 'verse dreamed up by dancrilis.

Never said it was acceptable to hit your superiour officer (but made an allowance for it in the interest of crew safety/ exceptional circumstances, and while no one was attacked here as a demonstration of such circumstances Riker's attitude here would be normally unacceptable but fine in context, context not provided by me).

Lest you have forgotten, theyre pirates who regularly pick fights with a bloodthirsty tyrant with an entirely disproportionate sense of revenge. This cannot possibly be the first time that they've been in danger, and yet you don't see Julio walking around on deck with a helmet on all the time.

Not sure what you mean.

What are you even trying to prove here? Andi would have had to have done exactly what she did regardless of where Bandana was, what she was doing or who she was doing it with. That's part of her JOB as chief engineer.

Andi was not airing a grievance about her actions she was airing one about Bandana's actions - namely that she didn't seem to think it was far that Bandana was swanning around town all day.

Theyre about to leave on a journey for, at the very least, days of largely uneventful travel time.

... no?
The plan was get teleport orb (succeeded), get Durkon raised (failed), teleport to Xykon (delayed due to potential to get Durkon raised) - in the event that Durkon was just Durkon (which they all thought) and had they not heard about a potential meeting (and Durkon not pushing for that) they would not have travelled with the ship any further.
Now Bandana cannot be faulted for not knowing that they were going to get a teleport orb but she should have had a plan for her crew in the event that they did.

And lets be fair management do something (that is why there are jobs in management) being available for her staff when there working is something that a manager can be expected to do (first on the ship last off and all that kind of stuff).

They'd contracted gnomes to fix the ship. Andi didn't need to hang around, she just wanted to. She can't complain to the captain about work she doesn't need to do yet volunteers for anyway. Well, imean she can, but it's a crap complaint.

Here, Bandana says 'Andi's overseeing repairs so I ain't got much else to do' the implication being that if Andi was not overseeing repairs Bandana would be.

I do not understand where your blind defense of Andi is coming from, but she is the one most at fault for continually poking and prodding to get a reaction out of Bandana. Andi is nothing but a petulant bully while Bandana while not the most effective was trying to be the better person until she couldn't take Andi's bull anymore.

I started on this discussion (with the exception of the first page with a generic comment) with.

I will say in Bandana's defence (despite me thinking that she is inept as a captain) Andi should have taken a vacation from the ship in Tindertown if she was unable to follow Bandana as a captain (and if the ship couldn't function without Andi and they were all grounded so be it) - she should have known that adventurer transport would be hazardous and that Bandana might not be willing to follow reason (or at least what Andi viewed as the most reasonable course of action, if Bandana saw things differently or got caught up in the moment) ... but ah well.

Andi in my opinion should have walked away from the ship rather then serving on it if she could not see Bandana as the captain - perhaps a conversation on how things would be handled given the management change could have also solved this, and while Bandana should have talked about how she wanted things handled on her ship if she didn't offer that conversation Andi could have seen about demanding it and left if she was unsatisfied.
But as the conversation didn't happen (that we saw) and as both were serving on the ship than the lives of the crew might be the dominant factor on the ship charter (if one exists) and so protecting them from imminent death (as Andi saw it) may be within the rules.

[Marlowe]

Chaotic doesn't mean "lawless" or "every man for himself". It means focussing on small-scale tangibles like "the safety and prosperity of myself and the people I care about" rather than big, abstract things like "king and country" or "the rights of Man". At least, that's how I tend to play it.

So yes, a LAW to reimburse people for injuries is something a Chaotic might want. To protect himself. A Lawful person might want it as well, to protect the welfare of people in general.

[Keltest]

Not sure what you mean.

I mean they risk their lives all the time. This is hardly an abnormal occurrence, except that Andi felt the need to interfere with the captain instead of doing her job, and thus made things significantly more dangerous.

Andi was not airing a grievance about her actions she was airing one about Bandana's actions - namely that she didn't seem to think it was far that Bandana was swanning around town all day.

Which, as I pointed out, has little to do with anything that is or is not actually occurring and is entirely based on Andi wanting to find something about Bandana to complain about. It doesn't actually matter what she did, Andi would still have said it was wrong. You can tell by how, when Bandana actually gave into her demand once, she was still unhappy with the situation.

... no?
The plan was get teleport orb (succeeded), get Durkon raised (failed), teleport to Xykon (delayed due to potential to get Durkon raised) - in the event that Durkon was just Durkon (which they all thought) and had they not heard about a potential meeting (and Durkon not pushing for that) they would not have travelled with the ship any further.
Now Bandana cannot be faulted for not knowing that they were going to get a teleport orb but she should have had a plan for her crew in the event that they did.

The plan, as far as Bandana knew, was to try and get the order to the North where Kraagor's gate was, then drop them off and leave. The plan changed because of a number of changing circumstances (the godsmoot being the biggest one of them), but at the time she was leaving the ship, they had a journey of several days, if not longer, ahead of them.

And lets be fair management do something (that is why there are jobs in management) being available for her staff when there working is something that a manager can be expected to do (first on the ship last off and all that kind of stuff).

And should Andi have needed Bandana's help with something, she could have sent a gnome to go get her. "being available" does not mean "sitting around doing nothing but waiting for problems to arise." Managers who do that are generally bad managers.

[Peelee]

Here, Bandana says 'Andi's overseeing repairs so I ain't got much else to do' the implication being that if Andi was not overseeing repairs Bandana would be.

OK, let's say it's a legitimate complaint that Bandana waves off. This is still pretty minor, and every other complaint - which are much more important, and made in the heat of battle - were all explained as to why they wouldn't be followed. So, as far as Bandana needing to address Andi's concerns, she did get better about it, and did address her actual concerns every time after. So Andi is still a petulant child (regardless of her actual age).

[Marlowe]

"Liasing with paying customers" (the Order) is very distinctly one of Bandana's duties as Captain. She wasn't goofing off, she was doing part of her job.

And second-guessing Bandana's use of her own time does nothing to justify Andi's dereliction of duty, interference with another in the performance of their duty, and assault upon a superior.

Also, an interpretation thing; but how did Andi refer to the gnomes?

"Grubby little" are the adjectives used.

I somehow don't think someone who uses such slighting language against another ethnicity is someone we're supposed to be sympathising with. Insofar as Andi's actions don't put her so far beyond the Pale she's standing on Rockall anyway.