[PF/DSP] Dreamscarred Press announces ToB-inspired product

[Chained Birds]

Non-casters can craft in pathfinder once they hit level 5. It takes 2 feats (1 if Aegis as they get one for free), but Mundanes can make wondrous items and/or weapons and armor.

Master Craftsman.

So, technically, it takes a mundane an extra feat in order to do the crafting stuff. I guess a Fighter could do it seeing as they usually have a bunch of extra feats leftover after they choose a certain feat tree or something.

[upho]

Non-casters can craft in pathfinder once they hit level 5. It takes 2 feats (1 if Aegis as they get one for free), but Mundanes can make wondrous items and/or weapons and armor.

Yes, perhaps I should've clarified I was thinking about non-casters having an access to crafting comparable with what casters have, not a near-certain trap like Master Craftsman. I'd say that feat is a bad deal for virtually any PC in a party that contains a caster. And it's flat out stupid if the party has more than one caster.

But when there's no caster in the party (and perhaps in a few other corner cases), it might be good or even paramount depending on campaign/setting/playstyle.

[Psyren]

If non-casters can make magic items, they can't dodge taking responsibility for the party's crafting needs as easily, and the casters will likely be able to put more resources into increasing their personal power.

This is... pretty horrendous logic. "Mundanes getting options is bad, because then overbearing players might browbeat them into taking those options. So we should instead leave them without those options entirely." If you find yourself playing with people who dictate the feats your character should take, the solution is to not play with those people, not to ditch sensible feats like Master Craftsman.

[Chained Birds]

I think Master Craftsman is a pretty decent feat. It is mostly a DM tool so you can give magic stuff too PCs without having to have a Mage be the one selling the stuff. Joe the Blacksmith is able to make a +1 sword just as well as Endikar X. Hellspeaker, Grand Magister of the Blood Isles of the Realm of Terror and Madness.

[IronFist]

I would tend to disagree based on this.

One of the things that makes spell casters so far above mundanes is getting discount gear AND not needing to constantly sink the lions share of there money into a weapon and armor just to funtion.

I would contend that allowing the Mundanes some more breathing room on there Wealth By Level by helping to cut the amount of it they have to invest in things like Magic Weapons and Armor or other things they need items for that the casters just do with magic (Flight, Certain essential immunity's, Stat boosters.) would be a very good thing.

I'm sorry, but what did you disagree with? It looks like you're making a point completely unrelated to anything I said.

[upho]

This is... pretty horrendous logic. "Mundanes getting options is bad, because then overbearing players might browbeat them into taking those options. So we should instead leave them without those options entirely." If you find yourself playing with people who dictate the feats your character should take, the solution is to not play with those people, not to ditch sensible feats like Master Craftsman.

Please note I said "IME" and "end result", meaning I was expressing something I believe subjective and dependent on both group/campaign as well as other less obvious factors. And in my groups nobody has ever dictated other players' build choices, but in every 3.x or PF campaign (except Ptolus which has Magic-Mart and plenty of treasure), the casters have taken crafting feats, prioritizing whatever items giving the party the highest net gain (often arms & armor).

And yes, I agree it would've been pretty horrendous logic if a) only you could craft your own items, b) the caster/non-caster imbalance were much better in other regards, and/or c) your party's casters are egoists who suck at teamwork. As long as none of those are true in your party/game, why should your non-caster invest resources in crafting (unless for pure RP reasons or you actually play with bullies browbeating you)?

Like I said, I certainly wouldn't mind a crafting option on par with what the casters have. But if we're going to give non-casters more good options, I'd appreciate if we'd start with the stuff that improves their flexibility and chances of having a moment in the spotlight. Then we can add more party-oriented OOC utility.

Edit: Please also note I've never suggested ditching Master Craftsman, and I certainly don't think it's bad that the feat exists. My post was in the context of prioritizing a crafting-oriented non-caster archetype (with crafting on par with casters) before other potential archetypes.

[upho]

I think Master Craftsman is a pretty decent feat. It is mostly a DM tool so you can give magic stuff too PCs without having to have a Mage be the one selling the stuff. Joe the Blacksmith is able to make a +1 sword just as well as Endikar X. Hellspeaker, Grand Magister of the Blood Isles of the Realm of Terror and Madness.

I agree, as a DM tool it's great. Good point.

[Fax Celestis]

This is... pretty horrendous logic. "Mundanes getting options is bad, because then overbearing players might browbeat them into taking those options. So we should instead leave them without those options entirely." If you find yourself playing with people who dictate the feats your character should take, the solution is to not play with those people, not to ditch sensible feats like Master Craftsman.

No, the problem with Master Craftsman is that it doesn't obviate the need for being able to cast the required spells to craft the item: it only removes the caster level requirement. So either you need UMD or a buddy to cast a spell for you.

[Chained Birds]

No, the problem with Master Craftsman is that it doesn't obviate the need for being able to cast the required spells to craft the item: it only removes the caster level requirement. So either you need UMD or a buddy to cast a spell for you.

Could you just add a +5 or something to the craft check? Or was that a 3.5 thing?

[Fax Celestis]

Could you just add a +5 or something to the craft check? Or was that a 3.5 thing?

You can, sure.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

That still doesn't mean it's "as easy" for a non-caster to create things than a caster. There's a greater up-front feat cost, it's limited functionality (arms, armor, and wondrous only), and higher (cross-class!) skill investment. Non-casters are already lagging 3 points behind casters for using a non-class skill, and now they have between 5 and 15 extra points on top of the craft check because they don't meet prereqs. Or they can invest more skill points (that they don't generally have, due to fighter types being shafted on skill points) on UMD (another non-class skill) and spend money (multiplied per diem, mind you) to get around the increased DC for bypassing prerequisites, but this still puts non-casters behind casters due to, again, more up-front cost.

If Master Craftsman said this:

Choose a Craft or Profession skill: you may substitute your ranks in that skill for your Caster Level when determining your Caster Level for crafting magic items and qualifying for item creation feats. In addition, you may use that craft skill when making checks to craft the item in place of a Spellcraft check, and you reduce the increased DC for not having access to a prerequisite for crafting an item to +2.

...it would be worthwhile for both casters and noncasters alike. As it is, though, it's a pittance: sure, you can do it, but it's so ridiculously pointless barring a particular circumstance (due to increased costs and increased character focus for lesser access) that it might as well not even exist.

[Metahuman1]

Ironfist: I was saying I disagree with it not being Path of War related, since I got the vibe that a decent chunk of the design goal of Path of War as to give Melee/Mundanes Nice Things.

Fax: I had not realized that aspect of the feat, and since I'm applying to a game were I was gonna use it, I'm glad you pointed that out to me, cause I need to check with the DM now and make sure we have an understanding of what I need to have to do crafting. Thanks.

Also, that being RAW for the feat would tend to add more validity to giving an archatype or two that can make there own gear.


Edit: On an unrelated note, I just noticed were on page 50. Maybe it's time to open a second thread?

[ErrantX]

I do believe you're right.

Here is a new thread.

-X