[PF] Occult Adventures Playtest is out!

[Milo v3]

And will make Paizo regret the conductive enchantment.

My guess is that they'll just say that doesn't work since it has unlimited uses, either way wouldn't most kineticist wouldn't benefit since most don't get a touch attack blast.

[Psyren]

The only class that doesn't have a mental emotional flavour to it's abilities is the Kineticist, but that's forgiven because the concept is still cool.

It doesn't have a psychic flavor either so my guess is that they're aware of its black sheep status.

My guess is that they'll just say that doesn't work since it has unlimited uses, either way wouldn't most kineticist wouldn't benefit since most don't get a touch attack blast.

Unlimited-use SLAs are explicitly allowed with Conductive.

[Erik Vale]

My guess is that they'll just say that doesn't work since it has unlimited uses, either way wouldn't most kineticist wouldn't benefit since most don't get a touch attack blast.

As above, but no, Conductive isn't about that.

It's about Irratives.
And not just that, Irratives at range. Stick it on a bow. Maybe even grab the splintering arrows to affect multiple 5ft bursts, with them always hitting as long as the enemy doesn't have evasion.
Edit: Or raining, that way you hit as a splash weapon. Then stack on chaining for your blast.

[Psyren]

Given that conductive says "at-will abilities can be used every round" - it's easy to interpret that as 1/round with the bonus damage rather than 1/iterative. That's useful without being broken.

[master4sword]

Given that conductive says "at-will abilities can be used every round" - it's easy to interpret that as 1/round with the bonus damage rather than 1/iterative. That's useful without being broken.

A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, who takes the effects of the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, he may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal greatsword damage and damage from one use of her lay on hands. This weapon property can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).

Pretty explicitly 1/round, so no conducted iteratives.

[Erik Vale]

I'd consider that a rather non existent interpretation, given as it never mention numbers.
Huh, never noticed that last bit...
That's frustrating.

[Psyren]

Pretty explicitly 1/round, so no conducted iteratives.

Ah, thanks for the cite. So yeah, conductive + kineticist is fine.

[Extra Anchovies]

You know, the more I look at the Kineticist, the more it just looks like a worse version of the 3.5 Warlock.

Iterative blast attacks (non-reach) come online at level 1 for Warlock (Eldritch Claws), and at level 5 for Kineticist (Kinetic Blade + Form Infusion Specialization so you aren't taking 20 damage/round). With reach, it's still level 1 for Warlock (Eldritch Glaive), but it's level 8 for Kineticist (Kinetic Whip + Form Infusion Specialization, taken twice). Granted, iteratives only come online at level 8 anyways, but it's still worth noting that a Warlock need only invest a feat or one invocation known to get iteratives with reach, while a Kineticist has to invest two talents plus two Infusion Specializations.

Flight comes online for both at level 6, but the Warlock need only spend one invocation known while a Kineticist has to spend two of their talents (air cushion + wings of air, self telekinesis/flame jet + their greater versions).

Ranged sniping has a range of 60 feet for a Warlock with zero invocations invested, but only Aerokineticists can get 60 ft. range, and must invest a talent to do so. 120-foot range is online for the Warlock as early as level 1 for the cost of one invocation, while a Kineticist has to wait until level 5 (and spend one talent plus one Infusion Specialization) to get that range without taking burn. Chain Lightning is perhaps where the Kineticist has its only victory; it's significantly better than Eldritch Chain, but that isn't saying much. However, Chain Lightning only comes online at level 11 unless the Kineticist doesn't like having hit points; level 11 is also when Warlocks can ignore SR while still making touch attacks, something the Kineticist can never do. Warlocks also never have to contend with damage reduction, ever. If a Kineticist wants to ignore SR, they have to make non-touch melee attacks (with their average BAB) that are very subject to DR.

So we can see from the above examples that to get the same abilities as a Warlock, a Kineticist has to invest a lot more of their talents known than a Warlock does of their invocations known, and many of those abilities come online later. And at the end of the day? The warlock still gets more invocations than the Kineticist receives talents. Plus, Hellfire Warlock more than offsets the one-die damage discrepancy, and if Legacy Champion is on the table then the Warlock outpaces even the Composite Blasts, while taking only one-fourth the damage (2*level vs 1 point of Constitution). And while burn cannot be healed, ability damage from Hellfire can.

Long story short, I'd rather play an unmodified 3.5 Warlock in a Pathfinder game than I would a Kineticist, even without access to Hellfire Warlock. This class needs some major upgrades to be attractive, considering how poorly it compares to a mid/high-T4 or mid/low T3 class.

[T.G. Oskar]

You know, the more I look at the Kineticist, the more it just looks like a worse version of the 3.5 Warlock.

Iterative blast attacks (non-reach) come online at level 1 for Warlock (Eldritch Claws), and at level 5 for Kineticist (Kinetic Blade + Form Infusion Specialization so you aren't taking 20 damage/round). With reach, it's still level 1 for Warlock (Eldritch Glaive), but it's level 8 for Kineticist (Kinetic Whip + Form Infusion Specialization, taken twice). Granted, iteratives only come online at level 8 anyways, but it's still worth noting that a Warlock need only invest a feat or one invocation known to get iteratives with reach, while a Kineticist has to invest two talents plus two Infusion Specializations.

Minor nitpick: Eldritch Claws is a Dragon magazine feat. It's not official, unlike Eldritch Glaive. Thus, Eldritch Claws may not appear in all tables; only those that allow that specific feat.

That said: Hideous Blow is another way to get melee-ranged extra damage, but only on one blow and you need to wield a weapon.

So we can see from the above examples that to get the same abilities as a Warlock, a Kineticist has to invest a lot more of their talents known than a Warlock does of their invocations known, and many of those abilities come online later. And at the end of the day? The warlock still gets more invocations than the Kineticist receives talents. Plus, Hellfire Warlock more than offsets the one-die damage discrepancy, and if Legacy Champion is on the table then the Warlock outpaces even the Composite Blasts, while taking only one-fourth the damage (2*level vs 1 point of Constitution). And while burn cannot be healed, ability damage from Hellfire can.

Long story short, I'd rather play an unmodified 3.5 Warlock in a Pathfinder game than I would a Kineticist, even without access to Hellfire Warlock. This class needs some major upgrades to be attractive, considering how poorly it compares to a mid/high-T4 or mid/low T3 class.

You're comparing the full wealth of optimization of a 3.5 Warlock to the playtest of the Kineticist; this is just as unfair as comparing the wealth of 3.5 content or PF content to 5e when the DMG hasn't even been released. Depending on how much support does Occult Adventures' classes get, you may see new tricks for them, or perhaps Archetypes that support them.

The bit that the Kineticist has on its favor, if it can be said as such, is that the abilities you get are intentionally limited. The Warlock has a good set of invocations, but they get only a few; it's your decision if you want to have more Eldritch Blasts/Shape Invocations or the SLA Invocations, since you can't have both. With the limited amount, you need a lot of thought to play a Warlock well. Also: most of the Invocations you chose were essentially all-day powers hidden beneath the trappings of SLAs; Fell Flight is the best known example of it, as it grants you flight for 24 hours...meaning that, unless dispelled, you needed to use it only once. The difference between that and granting actual permanent flight as a (Su) ability was so small it was almost meaningless.

From what I've seen from the Kineticist, it definitely has more of a vibe of "element-themed superhero" rather than a Bender. The way Kinetic Blasts and powers manifest echo the power set you'd expect from an Elemental Manipulator. While I haven't seen the playtest document at all, it's not hard to figure that, for example, an Aerokineticist could have powers related to, say, Wind Wall or Feather Fall or Fly or Gust of Wind, since all of those spells relate to manipulation of Air. An Air Manipulator could control wind in that way, innately rather than scientifically. You could remove the "psychic magic" feel and rename it into...I dunno, "Quantum" and the flavor would fit better. It's expected that the Kineticist will feel like such; you're progressing on your power set, rather than progressing your innate magical powers as a Warlock would.

[Psyren]

Guys, FYI, the playtest ends tomorrow. Here's hoping the release version of the Psychic gets a meatier list - at least, I'll put that in the survey if there's an option.

Also, we have a couple of iconic art previews:

Spoiler: Iconic Psychic Sketch

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Spoiler: Iconic Occultist Sketch

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[Gemini476]

Oh wow, the final question in the survey for the Kineticist sure is a doozy.

9. Of the two, would you rather see the kineticist gain more utility and out-of-combat options or higher damage output? (1 means you'd rather see the kineticist expand toward utility and out-of-combat options, 5 means you'd rather see it sacrifice utility for greater damage output)

Why on earth is that even a thing. Why would you even make that dichotomy?

[Extra Anchovies]

@Gemini: Definitely in agreement regarding that monster of a question. It's the Sophie's Choice of the Occult Adventures playtest.

Also, we have a couple of iconic art previews:

Spoiler: Iconic Psychic Sketch

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Spoiler: Iconic Occultist Sketch

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Oh, wow. The iconic Psychic looks awesome. I'm pumped to see what the colored version looks like. And the iconic Occultist looks pretty much exactly how I expected him to - almost overloaded with random trinkets and other objects, and carrying a skull

[Elricaltovilla]

I could not in good conscience hit the submit button on the Kineticist survey. There was no way to actually and accurately express my concerns with the class, which are numerous. More than that, its also the only class in the book I have any real interest in, so I'll probably be passing on Occult Adventures when it comes out.

[Ssalarn]

I could not in good conscience hit the submit button on the Kineticist survey. There was no way to actually and accurately express my concerns with the class, which are numerous. More than that, its also the only class in the book I have any real interest in, so I'll probably be passing on Occult Adventures when it comes out.

Having actually talked a bit with some of the guys at Paizo and hearing first hand their assessments of the playtest information, I think it'll actually work out pretty well. I suspect what we'll see with the Kineticist is a small boost in damage and hopefully some optional but necessary mechanics, like Composite Blasts, moved directly into the class chassis. Mark had mentioned in the playtest thread that they were pretty much an anticipated part of the class' ability to deal damage, so it really should be built into the class if it's that integral to the progression. I also suspect the utility is going to get a big boost up, as Mark has said several times that he intentionally left a lot of room there. I know in the thread he's also said that the Kineticist is probably going to be bumped to 4 + Int skills instead of the current 2.
I don't expect to see him change Burn at all (and really, the mechanical framework there is actually very solid and doesn't really need to be changed), though if he was going to change it, I'd really prefer to see him raise the amount of Burn you can take in a given round, rather than changing the basic way the system works. Given the various ways you can negate or balance out Burn, I'd like it more if the current per round limit were a per attack limit.

[Psyren]

Oh, wow. The iconic Psychic looks awesome. I'm pumped to see what the colored version looks like. And the iconic Occultist looks pretty much exactly how I expected him to - almost overloaded with random trinkets and other objects, and carrying a skull

As was the case in 3.5 Golarion, psychics come from Vudra, which is basically Golarion's sendup of India/Bangladesh. So I expect her to be very pretty indeed once the color comes through.

There's a rumor she might be Sajan's (iconic monk) long-lost sister joining their ranks, but the creative folks are tight-lipped.

I'm looking forward to the iconic Kineticisit myself.

[Extra Anchovies]

Having actually talked a bit with some of the guys at Paizo and hearing first hand their assessments of the playtest information, I think it'll actually work out pretty well. I suspect what we'll see with the Kineticist is a small boost in damage and hopefully some optional but necessary mechanics, like Composite Blasts, moved directly into the class chassis. Mark had mentioned in the playtest thread that they were pretty much an anticipated part of the class' ability to deal damage, so it really should be built into the class if it's that integral to the progression. I also suspect the utility is going to get a big boost up, as Mark has said several times that he intentionally left a lot of room there. I know in the thread he's also said that the Kineticist is probably going to be bumped to 4 + Int skills instead of the current 2.
I don't expect to see him change Burn at all (and really, the mechanical framework there is actually very solid and doesn't really need to be changed), though if he was going to change it, I'd really prefer to see him raise the amount of Burn you can take in a given round, rather than changing the basic way the system works. Given the various ways you can negate or balance out Burn, I'd like it more if the current per round limit were a per attack limit.

Good to hear from someone who knows what's going on! The composite blasts had always sort of not made much sense to me, not thematically but mechanically. They really only come online at level 15, when Composite Specialization reduces their burn cost to 1 so you can take the move action to reduce burn to zero. Without them the only real way to get some damage done is Kinetic Blade/Whip.

Regarding Burn, I've gotten a lot less critical of that lately. I guess it's due to my throwing together a zero-burn aerokineticist build that actually seems like it would hold up fairly well in combat (the only out-of-combat utility it provides is flight, though, which is an issue; I'm looking forward to 4+Int skills).

3.5 Golarion

There was a 3.5 version of Golarion? Huh. Learn something new every day, I guess.

[Psyren]

There was a 3.5 version of Golarion?

Yep (note the publication date.)

This was in fact what led to Pathfinder's creation in general - they had all these stories and splats and adventure paths planned for their Golarion setting and they couldn't translate any of them to 4e. Worse, back then the GSL had that restriction about making you choose whether to publish only for 4e or only for 3.5. So they chose the latter and the rest is history.