Want to learn 3.5e (never played before)

[HeartfulSmiler]

Hello.

I have never played DND 3.5e before, but I've been playing (and DMing) 5e for quite a while now, long enough that I have a good understanding of basically everything in the game. One of the most enjoyable parts of the game for me has been character creation and optimization, so when I heard 3.5e had a lot more options for character creation, I was intrigued. I still am, but the numerous sources of feats and prestige classes that seem to be required for proper optimization make me... nervous, I guess?

I do eventually want to learn all of it, though, so what do you guys think would be the best way for me to start learning about all the rules and content?

[pabelfly]

Easiest way to learn the rules is through playing and experience, so I suggest finding a group that plays 3.5. You'll have a group of people familiar with the rules and can help you as you learn.

As for optimizing a character concept, come up with a character idea or a class you're interested in, and we can come up with a few basic build ideas to get you started.

[Troacctid]

Same as any other edition of D&D: read books, then play games, then read more books, then play more games, then read more books! The main difference is that there are a lot more books and a lot more rules. There's also lots of resources created by the community here on GiantITP and over on MinMax that can be very educational (some of them are linked in my signature).

[NerdHut]

Finding a group/game is going to be your best bet. 3.5e is slow to learn, and nearly impossible without hands-on experience as you learn. Hell, I'm six years in and still learning new things. If you can join people who already know the system, that's obviously going to help, but even playing with other new people will get you some experience outside of pure theory.

And concerning optimization, that's going to depend on the group you're with. There are groups that barely touch non-core materials, and there are groups that stack variants and manipulate combinations until they could fight Gruumsh himself by level 10. Just steer clear of any groups that aren't willing to help you learn (some players don't want to do that and it's fine, it just won't be conducive to actually learning).

[redking]

You can try the CRPG Neverwinter Nights 2. That uses a 3.5e ruleset and you can use it to learn 3.5e.

[Gruftzwerg]

The Basics should be your first step.

The Player Handbook (PHB) should be your next step. You don't need to read everything, but you should know the basic combat and stacking rules in 3.5 and have a gereal idea of classes and maybe even spells.

Then you do the same thing with the Dungeon Master Guide (DMG) and the Monster Manual (MM).

_________

Now you know a bunch of rules, but you don't know how they interact in certain situations. Sadly the most important rule in 3.5, the Primary Source Rule (PSR) is hidden in the ERRATA files/pages of 3.5.

The PSR is the rule that glues everything together and explains how the rule hierarchy is build and therefore which rule may suppress the other.

When you find a disagreement between two... rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

The fact that this rule was in mind while designing 3.5 but was later released in the ERRATA (after a few years people learning the game the wrong way) caused a lot of misunderstanding of the rules in the community in the early years. We still struggle here on the forum on a few topics how the PSR is applied..

What the rule does is simple at first glance. It tells you how book and topic precedence work and how to find out how the 2 interacting rules stand to each other (which one is the Primary Source and which one the Secondary). Note that one ability/effect can be Primary in one scenario, while being secondary in another scenario. For that it is important to have a feeling for the hierarchy created by the PSR.

On second glance the PRS has the following statement hidden behind its text's logic: "Specific beats/trumps General"
This means, that things that create a more "specific niche" for a special situation may trump the general/base rules (but they don't become general rules!!!).
To give a really simple example of this, lets take the "Charge"-action. The PHB's combat section sets the rules for general "charging". But if you get to the rules for 3d movement (flying), the charge rule get expanded and flying creatures can also make a dive attack as charge. This beats the normal charge rule for the specific niche of flying, but doesn't change the normal charge rules for nonflying.
Or the spell "Invisibility ", which redefines what an "Attack" is for its own niche. But it doesn't change what an "Attack" is in general for any other purposes.

____________________

Once you get a feeling for the PSR, you can now start to read any 3.5 rule book that interests you. The basic rules will carry you easily for the most part and if problems occur, the PSR should help you out. And if everything else fails, we are still here for any questions you might have ;)


______________

edit: finally, there is no single way to play 3.5 correct. It a messy system that lacks the word "balance" in its vocabulary.. The title for the most powerful = omnipotent build is hold by a level 1 kobold called PUN-PUN (who is omnipotent and stronger than anything else, even GODS... just google it if you are bored/interested).

This is why 3.5 has many RAW (Rules As Written) vs RAI (Rules As Intended) debates that can easily reach over 50 pages on this board/forum (I'm looking at our glorious "Are Dragonwrought Kobolds True Dragons?" debates here..^^). And neither RAW or RAI is perfect. And imho while some claim that they play one way or the other, they don't realize that everybody is playing a mix of it.

As simple example lets take "Healing by Drowning":

Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1. See also: Swim skill description.

When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns.

It is possible to drown in substances other than water, such as sand, quicksand, fine dust, and silos full of grain.

By RAW, you can abuse this. You take you dying teammate (-1 till -9 HP) and stick his head into a bucket of water. His HP gets set to 0 HP and you immediately pull him out again and try to slap some consciousness into him/her.
Most people see this as unintended RAW exploit and therefore say that it's not RAI. But other people claim that it might be even intentional if we look at fictional action movies where these kind of things happen. And it only works if you didn't take a fatal blow ( -10 or less HP), which almost never happens on later levels due to how HP and dmg scaling works in 3.5 ....
It all boils down how you and table enjoys it the most. So don't force yourself to play 3.5 correct, cause there is no correct way to play it ;)

__________
I hope you will enjoy your 3.5 experience. If you have further questions, we can always help you out here.

[Kurald Galain]

I do eventually want to learn all of it, though, so what do you guys think would be the best way for me to start learning about all the rules and content?

The easiest way to learn? Hop over to warhorn.net, search for any 3e or Pathfinder games that are online, in a convenient timeslot, and at low level. Note that PF has a very active organized play community, and 3E doesn't.

Then join a session online, easy as pie. Here's 65 sessions available for joining.

[H_H_F_F]

Another voice for finding a group. Get some hands on experience before getting into theory. However, I'd like to emphasize the need for a group with an experienced and rules-savy DM.

That's not as important if you're just there to have fun, but if you want to really learn the rules and get into optimization, you can't play with someone who doesn't know that armor bonuses to AC don't stack while dodge bonuses do, or that an immidiate action spends the next turn's swift action.

I'm a 3.5 player through and through, and I'm of the opinion that 5E is a strictly superior system for most players. It's far simpler, more streamlined, and has a higher optimization floor and lower ceiling for basically every chassis. Most people aren't interested in sitting around reading rules. We want to come to the table and have our sword and sorcery party defeat monsters together by slashing into them and yelling one liners. We want to be able to do that effctively without an amount of investment equivalent to 3 or 4 university courses. 5E does this better. So why do I still prefer 3.5?

3.5's strength is in its diversity. You can find multiple ways to build any concept you'd like, and games with different power levels play and feel drastically different - which is a good thing, as long as the table knows what they're doing.

3.5 allowes you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance. It allowes you to develop different concepts, play with many subsystems, and engage with combat and the environment in radically different ways every time you build a new character.

3.5 is also predictable, in the best way possible. While there are definetly confusing rules that can lead to arguement, the answer for most questions isn't "ask your DM". You know what you can and can't do, and that allowes you to build competent characters that specialize in areas of play that you just can't specialize in with 5E.

The price of this diversity and predictability is, of course, complexity. Grappling in 5E looks like this: viable target; contested athletics (defender can use acrobatics) check; if succesful, grappled condition. Grappling in 3.5 allowes you to do much more and opens up completely new attack options and such, but 95% of the players I've met haven't gotten the hang of it yet. It's a dense page and a half of rules in the phb, which still needs clarifications and interpretations.

This is why actual play is the best place to start. You could go insane trying to read the combat rules alone, and you could misunderstand and get confused very easily. Stuff makes far more sense once you apply it, and optimization is far more approachable when you have experience in what actually matters.

Good luck!

[Beni-Kujaku]

3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

This. Absolutely this. Optimizing isn't for outshining the rest of the group. Optimizing is for playing a fun character and still be on par with the group. Can I sig this?

[H_H_F_F]

This. Absolutely this. Optimizing isn't for outshining the rest of the group. Optimizing is for playing a fun character and still be on par with the group. Can I sig this?

Sure you can! I'm really flattered you asked to.

[HeartfulSmiler]

Thanks, guys! All these replies look very helpful!

Do you guys think with enough experience, I'll eventually be able to submit to those fancy contests you guys have here?
(Probably overambitious, but I wanna be able to do that eventually...)

[H_H_F_F]

Eventually? Sure! I've started out here with very little splat book familiarity, and it didn't stop me from learning and submitting entries and judgements. The crucial part is just being an experienced player, so you know the rules of the game, and you have a feeling for what's good in real play versus what just seems good on paper.

I'd say within a few months of joining a group and getting a handle on the rules of the game, you could probably start book-diving and expanding your knowledge. Than you could look at past competitions for ingredients you've familiarized yourself with, and familiarize yourself with stuff featured in the entries for these competitions. If you find that you're having fun, you'll be participating yourself in no time.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Thanks, guys! All these replies look very helpful!

Do you guys think with enough experience, I'll eventually be able to submit to those fancy contests you guys have here?
(Probably overambitious, but I wanna be able to do that eventually...)

Well, of course. These contests are most of all a way to show off some wild ideas about a class. I am not saying that you will win golds immediately, of course. There are people in these threads that can quote any page of Kalamar Kingdoms from the top of their head and who know the optimal solution to any problem they can encounter in building a character. Nor am I saying that you will immediately have ideas about how to use this or that special ingredient. But you don't need extensive knowledge of everything to have an idea. And once you have an idea, then GitP has all the help for you. Let's take an example. Say, there is one contest for which the secret ingredient is Radiant servant of Pelor, which is a class that focuses on healing and on destroying undead by using some uses of the turn undead ability. You look at it and say "that's interesting. I would like a character that focuses primarily on this "destroy undead" thing", so you look at the Turn Undead rules (google "turn undead d&d 3.5") and see that it's dependant on your class level. So you search what are the ways to improve your number of turn undead and your effective turning level. So you note that you'd like the Extra Turning feat, which you know from the Player's Handbook to increase your number of turns per day. But you don't know how to increase your effective level. So you google "increase effective turn level gitp", the first few links give you at least some ideas that the best way is generally to gain levels in a class that gives you turn undead, like the Radiant Servant. So you look up "classes advancing turn undead gitp". You somehow find this page, which gives you some new ideas about where you'd like to go.). Then you find that there is not that much that your character can do when they're not against undead, so you search what you could do with turn undead against things that are not undead, and you find the existence of divine feats, which use some turn attempts to gain various beneficial effects. So you try to put as many Divine feats in your build as possible. And before you know it, you have like 35 levels you'd like to take and 15 feats. So you try to remove everything that is not necessary until you can cram it all in 20 levels and the 7 feats you're allowed (levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18). And poof, you have a functioning character. Obviously it is pretty simple and not that original, and there is a high chance you read one of the parts wrong, which renders the build unusable, but you learned a lot about some aspects of the game by creating it, and your next one will be better. The process of optimization for a GitP competition is this kind of back and forth between looking for something in books or on the internet, then going back to your character to see how it would integrate. Of course, the more experimented you are, the faster the research part is, and the more original the ideas you can come up with and make work become, but you'll become better for each character you create.

In a real table, it is a bit different. Your DM will know a lot more than you, at least in the beginning. Don't hesitate to ask him and create your first characters together. It will be easier for you, especially if you have to take into account the strengths and weaknesses of other members of the party. Start by creating a low level character, then increasing its level one at a time. You don't have to plan for the entire build all at once. Only when you're at least pretty familiar with the rules, what strength and weaknesses each class has, and what the main ways to bypass those weaknesses are, will you be able to successfully plan out a character in advance and make it work in a real game. There's nothing more frustrating than planning a character, then noticing mid-campaign that you aren't allowed to use their main thing, and ending up with a patchwork of abilities that don't work together.

[gijoemike]

I will eighth the find a group suggestion.


But when you start, I would very much suggest you greatly limit the books/content and start at a very low level. Also don't play a caster the first time.

The true pull of 3.5 is the shear amount of options. It is VERY easy to overwhelm your senses and suffer from analysis paralysis. I lover having options and I don't play in games that greatly limit books/sources. But for a new player, you NEED to limit it. Sources are web, magizane articles, setting source books, 3rd party sources, official books. And there are dozens of each.

There are a few people on these boards that have compared properly playing a wizard to the amount of work to obtain a associates degree from a college. The full casters, esp wizards, need extreme rules knowledge to be played well. I don't think I can do it anymore. There was a time I might have been able to pull off a 1/2 decent wizard. No more.

Pay close attention to the ways skills interact with each other and how difficulties work in the 3.X editions. Pay attention to how critical hits and damage reduction works. Pay attention to caster levels and how they get calculated. And have fun playing.

[SpicyBoi_Nezu]

Find a book that sounds interesting, I use https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/3d2ptm/complete_list_of_dnd_35_source_books/ as a list of all of them, and when you find something that looks interesting, read through it and look at what it has to offer, look through the feats and prestige classes, I recommend "Complete Warrior" "Sword and Fist" "Tome of Battle" because they add a large amount of feats and prestige classes that fit with more specialized melee fighting, which is the easiest to build, since with how much you have at your disposal, you can't really build them wrong.

"Complete Arcane" "Complete Mage" "Complete Divine" "Spell Compendium" are great options for finding new spells fore the core classes.

"Magic Item Compendium" "Arms and Equipment Guide" "Monster Manual I-V" are great sources for Monsters and Equipment (Magical and Non-Magical)

And there are a bunch of setting specific books "Frostburn" "Ghostwalk" "Sandstorm" "Stormwrack" which are useful if you base a campaign off of them

Use the books supplemental, take one of two things from it (After okay-ing it with the DM), you don't need to get too in-depth.

[HeartfulSmiler]

Good job SpicyBoi_Nezu, you answered the question I was gonna ask before I could ask it

[Gruftzwerg]

Thanks, guys! All these replies look very helpful!

Do you guys think with enough experience, I'll eventually be able to submit to those fancy contests you guys have here?
(Probably overambitious, but I wanna be able to do that eventually...)

Sure. And you don't even need a maximized build for that. "Power" is only one of the 4 categories where you can earn points. The ingredients used are also important and how well you hit the theme of the round.

But if you want to get into 3.5 optimization (for pure power) thou, I would recommend to read many optimized builds (once you have a good foundation of the base rules).
The first step here is to understand the d&d/3.5 language used in the forums/inet (which you should already have a good foundation with your 5e knowledge, but some things are a lil different in 3.5).
Then you proceed to the mechanics/exploits the build presents and try to understand how they work rule-wise.
Over time you should be getting a feeling to see possible exploits and opportunities when you read rule texts. With this ability you will soon see possible weaknesses or combos when you read things with "RAW" in your mind.
A good starting point would be to read about Pun-Pun and how the omnipotent build even got squeezed into a lvl 1 Kobold (there is also a nice youtube video about Pun Pun). Understanding the build is a good exercise imho. My BoBaFeat and Orochimaru (from Naruto) builds also showchase insane rule interactions taken to the next lvl. Create infinite loops for infinite power.
Imho in 3.5 you can create almost anything (as my Orochimaru build proves imho). Mechs, overpowered casters, superheroes (superman, hulk, son-goku (DBZ), ... anything you can imagine.

[pabelfly]

Thanks, guys! All these replies look very helpful!

Do you guys think with enough experience, I'll eventually be able to submit to those fancy contests you guys have here?
(Probably overambitious, but I wanna be able to do that eventually...)

It's not a bad goal to have. You can always try your hand at judging. Don't let your lack of familiarity with the rules stop you, you'd have to look everything up anyway to make sure it's legal. I found judging also helped me when I wanted to enter a build contest myself.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by HeartfulSmiler
Do you guys think with enough experience, I'll eventually be able to submit to those fancy contests you guys have here?

Just remember what Harry Potter said: every great wizard in history started out as a student.

Same goes for every single person posting here. Everyone here started where you are now. No reason you can't do it too.

Originally Posted by gijoemike
Also don't play a caster the first time.

I’m going to respectfully disagree with this. My very first 3.5 character was a druid, and I took to it like a duck to water. I still had a learning curve, but it wasn’t anywhere as formidable and overwhelming as some people might suggest.

So find an active game, find a concept you like, and just dive in.

[Troacctid]

It's not a bad goal to have. You can always try your hand at judging. Don't let your lack of familiarity with the rules stop you, you'd have to look everything up anyway to make sure it's legal. I found judging also helped me when I wanted to enter a build contest myself.

I wouldn't recommend judging until you know the system a lot better. It's a good way to have lots of contestants yelling at you.

If you want to participate, you're better off entering a build. Researching for it, putting it together, and reading the scoring will be an educational experience. Try making the "obvious" build; many of the regular competitors talk themselves out of the basics, but those builds can still score surprisingly well, and since you're a newbie, it's not like you'll be able to tell which ideas are original or not.

Same goes for every single person posting here. Everyone here started where you are now. No reason you can't do it too.

That's not true! I started with 4e, not 5e, so I already had experience crafting complicated character builds, and I became an instant optimization prodigy after only a couple sessions of 3.5e!

But we can't all be as amazing as me.

[HeartfulSmiler]

From where would I even get information on classes/feats/prestige classes that aren't in the SRD anyway?

[Troacctid]

From where would I even get information on classes/feats/prestige classes that aren't in the SRD anyway?

This is a useful resource: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=513.0

You can also find PDFs of all the books at DriveThruRPG.

[Elves]

They're pretty damn similar games. 5e is for the most part just a simplified 3e. So it's just a matter of learning the differences where they pop up. Definitely learn the basics before doing charoppy stuff.

Find a PDF of the Rules Compendium and read pages 7-9 for an action cheat sheet. Actions are where some of the big differences lie. For example, you can't move in between taking other actions, can't take extra attacks in the same turn as you move, and if you use a reaction ("immediate action" in 3e), you can't use a bonus action ("swift action" in 3e) on your next turn [but opportunity attacks are free and don't cost a reaction].

[Tzardok]

And this archive has all of the issues of the Dragon Magazine available. 3.0 starts properly with #274, 3.5 with #310, and 3.5's last issue is #359.

[Beni-Kujaku]

And this archive has all of the issues of the Dragon Magazine available. 3.0 starts properly with #274, 3.5 with #310, and 3.5's last issue is #359.

OH! Nice! Thanks for the link!

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd suggest the Temple of Elemental Evil CRPG over Neverwinter Nights 2. I think it has a better implementation... provided you add all the amazing fanmade mods.