Discourage stat dumping

[Witty Username]

The idea of stat-dumping in 5E D&D being a bad thing that warps games more reflects peoples' Gygaxian angst at min-maxing than concern for its impact on play. Seriously, are people that paranoid about players getting one over them that they're coming up ways to punish Fighters for putting an 8 int INT instead of a 10? The difference between an 8 and a 20 is a +6 on a d20 and most players can't start with a wider spread than 17 16 15 8 8 8, settle down.

Like I said, it's Gygaxian. Control-freaky even, but I repeat myself.

Technically its 17 17 15 8 8 8 if you are a mountain dwarf and 17 16 16 8 8 8 if you are a half-elf. Carry on.

[Man_Over_Game]

I just implement group-wide saving throws for the same thing.

Roof is falling, Strength Saving Throw.

Group gets teleported/banished, Charisma Saving Throw.

Group's mind is being read, Intelligence Saving Throw.


Those are all simple enough to implement them fairly regularly. To reward those with higher stats, it's better to have multiple checks than it is to have fewer high ones (so 2 DC 10 checks are better than 1 DC 20).

[Pex]

How about players play the characters they want to play, not what you want them to play and punishing them for not?

[Jakinbandw]

I personally enjoy playing character that dump Strength and Constitution while having High mental scores.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Threads merged above. One thread per topic, please. A thread say "do X" and one saying "don't do X" should probably just be a single discussion.

[NatureKing]

How about players play the characters they want to play, not what you want them to play and punishing them for not?

Because the DM has spent a long time fleshing out his relatively boring copy paste world and making it 'totally unique' so you must abide by that if you want to play in 'his' game. And that means abilities always targeting weak spots or bypassing your strengths in random encounters.

[olskool]

Anyone who didn't receive a formal education should be in the 8-10 int range. It doesn't mean they are stupid. You shouldn't have to roleplay that you are stupid either. Giving your character a low int score is the best way to represent their lack of formal education. Something common among many adventurers.

Has anyone even considered what wisdom means in this? The words are synonyms.

Intelligence is a measure of cognitive function in so much as how quickly or how well a person solves a test or performs a task. It can be a result of natural talent/genetics or a product of training. A low INT but well-trained subject performing a specific task that they have "experience with" can often appear to be "better" or "more intelligent" performing a task than someone with "natural talent" but no training. A person with a lower INT will be harder to train to do a task in the first place so they will almost always appear to be performing more poorly than a high INT person with an equal level of training.

Wisdom is a measure of one's "experience" in the world and determines how easily a person can "adapt" to a situation based on their past experiences. Wisdom would represent "a past situation that was similar to the one that the person is undergoing right now." Because the person has "experienced" the situation before, they may have "insight" into how to resolve the current situation with a better outcome. They appear to be WISE because of their experience.

To quote Mark Twain... "Wisdom is a product of Experience, and Experience is often the product of poor choices."

[Tanarii]

Intelligence is a measure of cognitive function in so much as how quickly or how well a person solves a test or performs a task. It can be a result of natural talent/genetics or a product of training

Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason. You're right about it being both natural and trained. An ability score is not just a measure of innate capabilities, but also encompasses a creature’s training and competence in activities related to that ability.

Wisdom is a measure of one's "experience" in the world and determines how easily a person can "adapt" to a situation based on their past experiences.

Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition. It has nothing to do with familiarity or experience. Or for that matter, being Wise.

[DarknessEternal]

Alteratively, come to the realization that the DM "wins" when the players have fun. This is probably not when the DM just punishes them for something trivial.

[GreyBlack]

Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason. You're right about it being both natural and trained. An ability score is not just a measure of innate capabilities, but also encompasses a creature’s training and competence in activities related to that ability.

Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition. It has nothing to do with familiarity or experience. Or for that matter, being Wise.

Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.

Charisma is being able to sell a tomato based fruit salad.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.

Charisma is being able to sell a tomato based fruit salad.

charisma is selling the tomatoes as strwberries.

[Teaguethebean]

Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.

Charisma is being able to sell a tomato based fruit salad.

You mean Salsa?

[Wizard_Lizard]

You mean Salsa?

a tomato based dessert.

[MaxWilson]

Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.

Knowing what to do with a tomato is XP, not Wis.

[Tanarii]

Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.

Charisma is being able to sell a tomato based fruit salad.

In 5e, wisdom is noticing some idiot put a tomato in the fruit salad.

[OverLordOcelot]

What is the end result of 'not stat dumping' that people trying to discourage stat dumping want to see? It seems like some people want to push players to pick a 12 12 12 13 13 13 type array, while others are players just use 10 as the floor for stats. And obviously if you use rolls there is no 'stat dumping' to discourage, since you don't pick stats and thus can't choose to dump one. I see an awful lot of people just asserting that stat dumping is a Bad Thing, though no one has said why, or even clearly stated what they want players to do; 'don't stat dump' doesn't actually convey what you want players to do. Most of the suggestions here aren't actually going to discourage stat dumping, they're just tacking penalties onto characters that aren't worth lowering a main stat to avoid or engaging in bizarre worldbuilding where NPCs have magic stat detection abilities.

It seems to me that the real options to deal with whatever exactly 'stat dumping' is is to:
1. Use rolling, where the stat dumping is done by dice and therefore OK since a player didn't do it.
2. Use a fixed array that has no dumped stats in it
3. Use point buy with a lower cap on max ability so players can't 'overspend' on high stats
4. Use point buy with a higher point total so that players have points to slap into low stats.

But this requires actually figuring out what behavior you want instead of calling something that players are essentially forced to do in point buy and literally forced to do in standard array a bad thing.

[dreast]

The way to discourage stat dumping in INT in 5e is the same as it was in AD&D 2e. Mind flayers (and now Intellect Devourers). Lots of ‘em.

[NatureKing]

The way to discourage stat dumping in INT in 5e is the same as it was in AD&D 2e. Mind flayers (and now Intellect Devourers). Lots of ‘em.

How does that discourage dumping stats?

[MaxWilson]

How does that discourage dumping stats?

Natural selection.

[Tanarii]

But this requires actually figuring out what behavior you want instead of calling something that players are essentially forced to do in point buy and literally forced to do in standard array a bad thing.

From what I've seen the desired effect is: stop players from putting 8 in Str, Int and Cha because those stats are all considered meaningless at my table, which has nothing to do with the DMing style in any way.

Sometimes it's phrased as something something cookie cutter builds.

As we all know, all non-GWM/HA chars dump Str, all HA wearers dump Dex instead, and all non-wizards dump Int (including EKs), and all non Cha-casters dump Cha.

[GreyBlack]

You mean Salsa?

We found our bard!

In 5e, wisdom is noticing some idiot put a tomato in the fruit salad.

Nah man! You intuit and perceive that the taste wouldn't mesh well with the other fruit. So you don't put it in! You're using your insight!

[NatureKing]

Natural selection.

Which helps prevent Stat dumping how.

[Wizard_Lizard]

We found our bard!



Nah man! You intuit and perceive that the taste wouldn't mesh well with the other fruit. So you don't put it in! You're using your insight!

INT is just wisdom but less good in 5e.
RIP all of my characters who max INT, even i it s useless to them. (Myself esteem demands they do so...)

[OverLordOcelot]

The way to discourage stat dumping in INT in 5e is the same as it was in AD&D 2e. Mind flayers (and now Intellect Devourers). Lots of ‘em.

If you're having lots of them, the difference between an 8 and 10 int is pretty low. You're talking about being able to take maybe one more hit before you go to zero int. If you're wanting players to have more than 10 in non-major stats, then it seems you should either just require them to use something like a 13-13-13-12-12-12 array in the first place, or increase the number of points so that they can afford the defensive stats.

Again, it looks like people are just saying 'stat dumping is bad! just kill the PCs and it will stop!' without any clear idea of what stats they actually want to see.

[MaxWilson]

Which helps prevent Stat dumping how.

The characters with low Int aren't around any more.

If you're having lots of them, the difference between an 8 and 10 int is pretty low. You're talking about being able to take maybe one more hit before you go to zero int.

In a campaign with lots of Intellect Devourers, Int 13 is probably as low as you should go. 16 is safer so you might wind up with a whole party of wizards. :-P

[ProsecutorGodot]

The characters with low Int aren't around any more.



In a campaign with lots of Intellect Devourers, Int 13 is probably as low as you should go. 16 is safer so you might wind up with a whole party of wizards. :-P

We've started encounting Mind Flayers and our party is suffering with 3/4 members having an int of 10. If it weren't for my Aura of Protection we wouldn't be able to fight them at all.

None of us "dumped" Intelligence and when it mattered for us (being non intelligence casters) the difference between an 8 and 10 was almost entirely non existent.

[noob]

the main dump stats is int.
Most casters are charisma based and most casting classes that have useful dips are charisma based again meaning most people who wants to open potential casting paths will take charisma as a tertiary stat and those who mains in casting will often take charisma as a main stat(a lot of charisma casters).
There is like only three classes that benefits from int significantly: wizards , rogues and fighters(and for fighters only in the case where they decide to take a specific subclass).
If they did put some extra skills in int maybe it would see more use.

[Tanarii]

None of us "dumped" Intelligence and when it mattered for us (being non intelligence casters) the difference between an 8 and 10 was almost entirely non existent.

To some folks, a 10 in a score is also "dumping" the score.

If they did put some extra skills in int maybe it would see more use.

That's a DM problem, not a rules problem. The DM is the one choosing to use Int checks (including ones that get the prof bonus from skills) in a way that they appear less valuable to you than other ability checks in the campaigns you are in.

[Constructman]

What is the end result of 'not stat dumping' that people trying to discourage stat dumping want to see? It seems like some people want to push players to pick a 12 12 12 13 13 13 type array, while others are players just use 10 as the floor for stats. And obviously if you use rolls there is no 'stat dumping' to discourage, since you don't pick stats and thus can't choose to dump one. I see an awful lot of people just asserting that stat dumping is a Bad Thing, though no one has said why, or even clearly stated what they want players to do; 'don't stat dump' doesn't actually convey what you want players to do. Most of the suggestions here aren't actually going to discourage stat dumping, they're just tacking penalties onto characters that aren't worth lowering a main stat to avoid or engaging in bizarre worldbuilding where NPCs have magic stat detection abilities.

If you're having lots of them, the difference between an 8 and 10 int is pretty low. You're talking about being able to take maybe one more hit before you go to zero int. If you're wanting players to have more than 10 in non-major stats, then it seems you should either just require them to use something like a 13-13-13-12-12-12 array in the first place, or increase the number of points so that they can afford the defensive stats.

Again, it looks like people are just saying 'stat dumping is bad! just kill the PCs and it will stop!' without any clear idea of what stats they actually want to see.

Curious about this myself.

[noob]

To some folks, a 10 in a score is also "dumping" the score.


That's a DM problem, not a rules problem. The DM is the one choosing to use Int checks (including ones that get the prof bonus from skills) in a way that they appear less valuable to you than other ability checks in the campaigns you are in.

The problem with knowledge checks for example is that either you succeed or you fail and still get the needed information somewhere else because the plot needs the players to have the crucial information.
For investigation you have a similar problem.
Arcana might have an use during fights however due to the fact the gms wants all their monsters to instantly recognise the spells each caster is casting they make recognising spells during battle not be based on arcana.