Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

[Anarion]

I think their biggest mistake was destroying the ME relays.
Law of Conservation of Detail says that everything in the story must serve a purpose. So if you make a point of showing the Relays being destroyed, people are going to assume that is important. The "Galactic Dark Age" Theory makes perfect sense, if you assume the destruction of the Relays is significant, a galactic dark age with stranded fleets is the most logical consequence of no more Relays. If destroying the relays has no real importance, then why was that included at all?


So, once you assume the Galactic Dark Age, that undoes all the work you did resolving the plotlines on Tuchanka and Rannoch. Yes they never SAY there is a galactic dark age, but it's the logical consequence of destroying the Relays. Their explanation out-of-game makes sense: People could have developed better FTL drives, but they didn't because the Relays were more convenient. Now that the Relays are destroyed they'll make them. It makes sense, but it's not the sort of thing you would assume based on what the Game shows. Without the Galactic Dark Age, we kind of know what happens, Wrex goes back to Tuchanka and leads the Krogan, the Geth and/or the Quarians go back to Rannoch and try to rebuild.


Of course, if we're cutting down the ending, we might as well just end with Anderson and Shepard sitting on the Citadel, watching the Crucible dock.

Actually, their out of game explanation is exactly what I assumed, the whole extinction thing never occurred to me until reading about it on the forums. The whole thing with the relays, starting from the ME1 conversation with Sovereign, is that they cause the races of the galaxy to evolve according to reaper desires. The races end up at the Citadel, they explore and colonize known systems, find known resources and construct space travel along known lanes. By destroying the mass relays, future races will develop new modes of FTL travel and will explore different parts of the galaxy, spreading out across a vast expanse. This would make it that much harder for a repeat of what the reapers did, even far into the future.

[Joran]

I think their biggest mistake was destroying the ME relays.
Law of Conservation of Detail says that everything in the story must serve a purpose. So if you make a point of showing the Relays being destroyed, people are going to assume that is important. The "Galactic Dark Age" Theory makes perfect sense, if you assume the destruction of the Relays is significant, a galactic dark age with stranded fleets is the most logical consequence of no more Relays. If destroying the relays has no real importance, then why was that included at all?

I saw it as an artistic decision. The Mass Relay is one of the most iconic pieces of Mass Effect, along with the Citadel and the Normandy. We've probably seen more of the relays than anything else in the games; it's the part that hasn't changed throughout the game and we see the Relays every time we travel between star systems. Destroying the Relays sends a message that the entire Galaxy has changed and there's a new beginning.

Additionally, as Anarion mentions, the Mass Relays are a Reaper invention. This also further reinforces the fact that the Galaxy has changed by removing a major symbol of the Reapers.

I think the developers were definitely blindsided by the "Galactic Dark Age" theory, similar to how George Lucas never anticipated the "Endor Holocaust".

Out of all of the mistakes with the ending, Mass Relay destruction ranks pretty far down. I don't think many people delve that deeply into the lore; I myself didn't consider the Galactic Dark Age until it was raised on this board.

Instead, the biggest mistakes were:

1) Not including an epilogue of a kind like Dragon Age 1. We've come to care about these characters, we want to know what's happened to them. Also, some of the endings like Control and Synthesis requires an epilogue to explain what happened.
2) Lack of differentiation in the endings. Re-using the same cinematics with different colors was a mistake.
3) Lack of customization of the ending. Readiness was a pretty poor implementation of having our choices through the previous games reflected.

[GloatingSwine]

It's marketing, you do whatever you have to do to sell your product. It's a completely separate department from the developers. You can read into it all you want, but it has nothing to do with the people actually making the game.

Here's the thing though. You aren't allowed to be actively misleading or deceitful in advertising. There are actual laws about it and everything. Which is why Bioware/EA were already reported to the BBB for false advertising.

If you think advertisers should be allowed to get away with saying just any old thing about the product they are advertising, you are opening yourself up for a world of hurt.

[GloatingSwine]

"Push button, destroy Reapers, roll credits" has to be the most boring resolution I've seen repeatedly put forward for the series.

You prefer "Shoot pipe, destroy Reapers, roll credits", I presume?

[Luzahn]

I think their biggest mistake was destroying the ME relays.
Law of Conservation of Detail says that everything in the story must serve a purpose. So if you make a point of showing the Relays being destroyed, people are going to assume that is important. The "Galactic Dark Age" Theory makes perfect sense, if you assume the destruction of the Relays is significant, a galactic dark age with stranded fleets is the most logical consequence of no more Relays. If destroying the relays has no real importance, then why was that included at all?


So, once you assume the Galactic Dark Age, that undoes all the work you did resolving the plotlines on Tuchanka and Rannoch. Yes they never SAY there is a galactic dark age, but it's the logical consequence of destroying the Relays. Their explanation out-of-game makes sense: People could have developed better FTL drives, but they didn't because the Relays were more convenient. Now that the Relays are destroyed they'll make them. It makes sense, but it's not the sort of thing you would assume based on what the Game shows. Without the Galactic Dark Age, we kind of know what happens, Wrex goes back to Tuchanka and leads the Krogan, the Geth and/or the Quarians go back to Rannoch and try to rebuild.


Of course, if we're cutting down the ending, we might as well just end with Anderson and Shepard sitting on the Citadel, watching the Crucible dock.

I feel like we're good with the relays. Synthesis is the only ending that wouldn't be able to rebuild them. I like to think that earth would rebuild theirs using harby's parts.

[Zevox]

Well, as a general rule I'm in favor of the controversial option over the "safe" one.

Normally I'd agree. In this case though the whole "making sense" part is a very big benefit to the more generic ending though, so I admit to being somewhat divided on the matter as is.

Zevox

[Psyren]

You prefer "Shoot pipe, destroy Reapers, roll credits", I presume?

Since you ask, no. I prefer permanently ending the threat (Synthesis, or Control given the right parameters.) Destroy, apart from possibly being transient, also results in genociding the Geth - neither of which are appealing to me (but the latter in particular is not.)

[Joran]

Here's the thing though. You aren't allowed to be actively misleading or deceitful in advertising. There are actual laws about it and everything. Which is why Bioware/EA were already reported to the BBB for false advertising.

If you think advertisers should be allowed to get away with saying just any old thing about the product they are advertising, you are opening yourself up for a world of hurt.

The Better Business Bureau is not a government agency; it's a private corporation. Reporting someone to the Better Business Bureau is a very low bar; anyone can report anyone to the BBB for anything they want.

You are allowed to say whatever you want in advertising, short of active fraud. So, in this case, the quote they cited is:

"...Mass Effect has provoked a bigger fan reaction than any other videogames conclusion in the medium's history." - Entertainment Weekly

The only way this can be construed as fraud is if Entertainment Weekly actually did not write those words or if Entertainment Weekly was not an actual newspaper. Both of those are true, EW did write those in an article. The bonus for EA is that the claim if objectively true. The fact that they present it as a positive and not a negative is not grounds for fraud.

P.S. Here's a nice article explaining the BBB blog response and why Bioware's claims do not rise to the level of fraud or even false advertising: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2...s-effect-3.ars

P.P.S. Caveat Emptor.

[Aotrs Commander]

Alternatively they could end with this Mass Effect 3 song.

Bwahahahahahaha!

Yes. Yes, that would work.

Also, we must see the story of that advanture that involves Zaeed wearing a mustache, eyepatch and pirate hat, because it will be the second funniest thing I've ever seen.

[GloatingSwine]

I saw it as an artistic decision. The Mass Relay is one of the most iconic pieces of Mass Effect, along with the Citadel and the Normandy. We've probably seen more of the relays than anything else in the games; it's the part that hasn't changed throughout the game and we see the Relays every time we travel between star systems. Destroying the Relays sends a message that the entire Galaxy has changed and there's a new beginning.

And this is exactly why it's so terribly bad.

Because this "new beginning" renders the consequences of everything the player has done irrelevant, because they were all grounded in and determined by the structure of the universe as it was.

I'm sure they'll handwave it away in the extended cut by having them rebuilt, but that's ****ing stupid since it's well established in the lore of the games that no-one knows how to build a Mass Relay, and anyone suggesting that they should maybe study how to do it is treated like a barking loon. (It also renders their destruction irrelevant except as a Big Shiny Explosion for the ending). In short, "fixing" it will actually break it worse.

[Luzahn]

And this is exactly why it's so terribly bad.

Because this "new beginning" renders the consequences of everything the player has done irrelevant, because they were all grounded in and determined by the structure of the universe as it was.

I'm sure they'll handwave it away in the extended cut by having them rebuilt, but that's ****ing stupid since it's well established in the lore of the games that no-one knows how to build a Mass Relay, and anyone suggesting that they should maybe study how to do it is treated like a barking loon. (It also renders their destruction irrelevant except as a Big Shiny Explosion for the ending). In short, "fixing" it will actually break it worse.

Well, the Protheans managed it in the end; the current races don't seem too less advanced than them. Besides, Control and Destroy both give access to reaper tech understanding.

I was always wary of the relays in previous games. It's never a good idea to rely on a technology you don't understand.

[Joran]

And this is exactly why it's so terribly bad.

Because this "new beginning" renders the consequences of everything the player has done irrelevant, because they were all grounded in and determined by the structure of the universe as it was.

I'm sure they'll handwave it away in the extended cut by having them rebuilt, but that's ****ing stupid since it's well established in the lore of the games that no-one knows how to build a Mass Relay, and anyone suggesting that they should maybe study how to do it is treated like a barking loon. (It also renders their destruction irrelevant except as a Big Shiny Explosion for the ending). In short, "fixing" it will actually break it worse.

I understand this frustration, which is why I hated the transition from KotOR1 and KotOR2. However, your choices don't really hinge on whether the Mass Relays exist or not. In fact, by making the blowing up of the Mass Relays less impactful, it means the fate of the Rachni, Krogan, and Quarians are much more important than in the doomsday Thousand Year Dark Age scenario.

Also, I think I've read from one of the writers that better FTL is going to replace the Mass Relays, not a rebuild of the relays. In that case, it's certainly plausible:

1) The building of the Catalyst was a concentration of the galaxy's best scientists around a single project. It's possible among their dealings that a group of them could discover a principle that could lead to a better FTL without the static build-up and fuel requirements.

2) Without the cheap and easy Mass Relays, there's a huge incentive to finally research and produce that better FTL.

Anything they do will be a handwave, but FTL will always be a handwave. For instance, in Star Trek, the main means of travel was the Warp Drive. The Borg came along and suddenly there's Transwarp. With DS9 came the wormhole.

[Psyren]

I'm sure they'll handwave it away in the extended cut by having them rebuilt, but that's ****ing stupid since it's well established in the lore of the games that no-one knows how to build a Mass Relay, and anyone suggesting that they should maybe study how to do it is treated like a barking loon. (It also renders their destruction irrelevant except as a Big Shiny Explosion for the ending). In short, "fixing" it will actually break it worse.

The Protheans did, and we just so happen to have a VI containing a great deal of their scientific knowledge.

The Reapers do too, and we either have chunks of them floating around in orbit, or intact Reapers that we can consult with.

[Luzahn]

The Protheans did, and we just so happen to have a VI containing a great deal of their scientific knowledge.

The Reapers do too, and we either have chunks of them floating around in orbit, or intact Reapers that we can consult with.

Did the kid say that the Synthesis reapers would assist us? I was only assuming we would get knowledge from the Control reapers through mind control.

[Aotrs Commander]

Also, I think I've read from one of the writers that better FTL is going to replace the Mass Relays, not a rebuild of the relays.

The problem is, the writers who said that clearly haven't thought about it, because they wanted the big explodey-Hollywood/philosphical claptrap ending.

Sure, they can do that; heck, with enough fuel and relay stations, it could probably be done with their current FTL technology - but that will all take TIME. Years, probably - whereas the crippled, isolated colonies, potentially the fleets - probably only have months, at best, before they run out of critical things - like, y'know food - that most of them would have imported. It's asking a hell of a lot of the Quarians - who are scarce on resources enough their fleet has to be migrant to start with - to support themselves, and all the Turian fleets, in an extensively-damaged solar-system to be able to stretch their resources long enough to get anywhere.

It's just basic common logisitics. The galaxy has grown up using the Mass Relays. The fact they are a Reaper trap is completely and totally irrelevant. All the major trade route are relay-based, so now they will collapse, until new ones can be established - but with the phenominal amount of infrastructre damage the Reapers have done (because the Reapers have attacked and crippled ALL THE MAJOR PLANETS, i.e. all the homeworlds and the Citidel), and annhilated most of the refuelling infrastructure, as well are repeated shown throughout the entire game, that means not only to new things have to be built, they have to build nearly from scratch. Which will take time, time in which the isolated worlds and clusters may simply not have, nor may not even have had before the infrastructure damage.

It is it the end of galacitic civilisation? No. Will it cause millions, if not billions, of deaths in the short term before supplies can be re-established? Almost certainly.

I refuse to accept a narrative handwave from Bioware, given that it violates all the technical details they have priorly established, for the sake of some dubious explosions and some daft idea that "technology is teh evuls" and that the mass relays are somehow inherently evil, doubly so since everybody and his uncle has been using captured Reaper tech for the last two games. I mean, for frag's sake, they were "bad" because the Reapers used them as a trap - now the Reapers are toast - one way or another - there is literally no reason for them not to be continue to be used.

Saying that they need to be destroyed to allow the galaxy to "evolve" or some such nonsense (as if the fact that now with the mass extinction event gone, the surviving races won't ever find a better way in the fullness of time anyway), because they were used for a Bad Purpose by one crowd of now-neutralised nutters is like saying you should destroy all the roads in your country because some bugger used roads to move their tanks down to invade your country - it's a level of Luddite Stupid I find rocket-launcher-to-the-spleen offensive.

[Psyren]

Did the kid say that the Synthesis reapers would assist us?

I see no reason they wouldn't work with us, assuming Synthesis. We freed them from Starkid's control; they consist of the minds of countless reaped civilizations before ours.

[Luzahn]

I see no reason they wouldn't work with us, assuming Synthesis. We freed them from Starkid's control; they consist of the minds of countless reaped civilizations before ours.

Hm, I guess the issue is that I never actually believed that the reapers were incarnations of the reaped race. We have evidence to the contrary, in the callous manner Sovereign and Harbinger communicate with Shepard, but no evidence that the reapers are anything more than composites of the physical essence of the reaped beings, not their minds.

[Calemyr]

The Protheans did, and we just so happen to have a VI containing a great deal of their scientific knowledge.

No, we don't. Victory, Vigil, and Vendetta were assigned to different projects. It was Vigil that worked on the Conduit project, and that one's kaput. Victory may or may not be long dead. Only Vendetta remains, with it's vast wealth of now completely meaningless data.

Remember that the conduit project was completely sealed off so that the Reapers wouldn't find it. Vendetta know nothing of that project.

[Joran]

Spoiled for length:
The problem is, the writers who said that clearly haven't thought about it, because they wanted the big explodey-Hollywood/philosphical claptrap ending.

Spoiler

Show

Sure, they can do that; heck, with enough fuel and relay stations, it could probably be done with their current FTL technology - but that will all take TIME. Years, probably - whereas the crippled, isolated colonies, potentially the fleets - probably only have months, at best, before they run out of critical things - like, y'know food - that most of them would have imported. It's asking a hell of a lot of the Quarians - who are scarce on resources enough their fleet has to be migrant to start with - to support themselves, and all the Turian fleets, in an extensively-damaged solar-system to be able to stretch their resources long enough to get anywhere.

It's just basic common logisitics. The galaxy has grown up using the Mass Relays. The fact they are a Reaper trap is completely and totally irrelevant. All the major trade route are relay-based, so now they will collapse, until new ones can be established - but with the phenominal amount of infrastructre damage the Reapers have done (because the Reapers have attacked and crippled ALL THE MAJOR PLANETS, i.e. all the homeworlds and the Citidel), and annhilated most of the refuelling infrastructure, as well are repeated shown throughout the entire game, that means not only to new things have to be built, they have to build nearly from scratch. Which will take time, time in which the isolated worlds and clusters may simply not have, nor may not even have had before the infrastructure damage.

It is it the end of galacitic civilisation? No. Will it cause millions, if not billions, of deaths in the short term before supplies can be re-established? Almost certainly.

Do we know they haven't thought it through? There is a middle ground between THOUSAND YEAR DARK AGE and No Mass Relays, No Problem! I'm waiting to see if the extended DLC explains the difficulty that arises in the transition between Mass Relay technology and post-Mass Relay technology. I'd be pretty happy with:

"It was a tough decade. We lost a lot of people. Entire colonies starved. But with the new Relay Drive, we could explore the galaxy, unconstrained by the Mass Relays, etc, etc."

Real life analogue: You could say the very same thing about post-WWII Europe and Japan. Japan and Germany were basically reduced to rubble. Fast forward 60 years and visiting Japan and Germany, you can't tell much of a difference. Given enough time and space and peace, the ravages of war won't last. That's not to downplay how hard it was to survive in post-WWII and many people did suffer and die.

Spoiler

Show

I refuse to accept a narrative handwave from Bioware, given that it violates all the technical details they have priorly established, for the sake of some dubious explosions and some daft idea that "technology is teh evuls" and that the mass relays are somehow inherently evil, doubly so since everybody and his uncle has been using captured Reaper tech for the last two games. I mean, for frag's sake, they were "bad" because the Reapers used them as a trap - now the Reapers are toast - one way or another - there is literally no reason for them not to be continue to be used.

Saying that they need to be destroyed to allow the galaxy to "evolve" or some such nonsense (as if the fact that now with the mass extinction event gone, the surviving races won't ever find a better way in the fullness of time anyway), because they were used for a Bad Purpose by one crowd of now-neutralised nutters is like saying you should destroy all the roads in your country because some bugger used roads to move their tanks down to invade your country - it's a level of Luddite Stupid I find rocket-launcher-to-the-spleen offensive.

It sounds like you're conflating in-universe vs. out-of universe here. I don't think anyone other than the pants-on-head crazy conspiracy dudes IN UNIVERSE would advocate blowing up the Mass Relays, even if they are linked to the Reapers.

Out of universe, as an artistic statement, it makes sense as I've previously stated. The Catalyst blows up the mass relays, because they said so. That's how the developers decided to have the Catalyst work and the player can't just say to the developer "No, Mass Relays don't work that way." The developer and creator of the Universe has the ultimate last word. However, it is also on the developers to guide us from the Mass Relay universe to the Post-Mass Relay universe in a way that makes sense. They haven't done so yet, but I'm taking a wait and see approach.

[Psyren]

Hm, I guess the issue is that I never actually believed that the reapers were incarnations of the reaped race. We have evidence to the contrary, in the callous manner Sovereign and Harbinger communicate with Shepard, but no evidence that the reapers are anything more than composites of the physical essence of the reaped beings, not their minds.

I wasn't sure either, but there is a rarely seen conversation with Legion in ME2 where he confirms this. (The whole thing is interesting, but the relevant bit is 1 minute in.)

No, we don't. Victory, Vigil, and Vendetta were assigned to different projects. It was Vigil that worked on the Conduit project, and that one's kaput. Victory may or may not be long dead. Only Vendetta remains, with it's vast wealth of now completely meaningless data.

Remember that the conduit project was completely sealed off so that the Reapers wouldn't find it. Vendetta know nothing of that project.

To put it bluntly, you have no idea what Vendetta does and doesn't know. Ilos may have been top secret, but the Crucible likely was too. My point is that it would be rather easy to handwave him having some knowledge of that technology.

And again, the Reapers themselves may still have the necessary information.

Or who knows, the great minds from across all species comprising the Crucible project could crack the secret themselves. It's not like they have anything more pressing to work on.

[Calemyr]

To put it bluntly, you have no idea what Vendetta does and doesn't know. Ilos may have been top secret, but the Crucible likely was too. My point is that it would be rather easy to handwave him having some knowledge of that technology.

And again, the Reapers themselves may still have the necessary information.

Ah, I see. So the Protheans were filling their VIs with unnecessary data on unrelated, top secret projects. And breaking communications silence to keep everyone else's VIs up to date on their progress. That way when one project gets taken down by the Reapers, they have a handy status report on all the other desperate last measures the Protheans were pursuing. That would be a real time saver.

[Aotrs Commander]

Do we know they haven't thought it through? There is a middle ground between THOUSAND YEAR DARK AGE and No Mass Relays, No Problem! I'm waiting to see if the extended DLC explains the difficulty that arises in the transition between Mass Relay technology and post-Mass Relay technology. I'd be pretty happy with:

"It was a tough decade. We lost a lot of people. Entire colonies starved. But with the new Relay Drive, we could explore the galaxy, unconstrained by the Mass Relays, etc, etc."

Real life analogue: You could say the very same thing about post-WWII Europe and Japan. Japan and Germany were basically reduced to rubble. Fast forward 60 years and visiting Japan and Germany, you can't tell much of a difference. Given enough time and space and peace, the ravages of war won't last. That's not to downplay how hard it was to survive in post-WWII and many people did suffer and die.

For the record, I have never said I believed in a thousand year dark age, which would be just as stupid. But you could easily be looking at a veritable galaxy-wide mass extinction, depending on how many colonies can survive completely without space transport routes, potentially for years to decades, and at the very least a catastrophy in loss of life almost if not as bad again as that already inflicted by the Reapers. It's not something that should be handwaved away, for the sake of some "artisitic/philosophical" point at one end of the scale, or Bay-sposions on the other.

It sounds like you're conflating in-universe vs. out-of universe here. I don't think anyone other than the pants-on-head crazy conspiracy dudes IN UNIVERSE would advocate blowing up the Mass Relays, even if they are linked to the Reapers.

That prior statement was entirely directed out of universe. I was - perhaps not very clearly, I'll grant you - saying that the basic concept that the mass relays needed to destroyed because they were a crutch to galactic development is risible (and, for that matter, in my opinion HAS no artistic merit), as it, even indirectly, and in passing, suggests that some philosophical goal of self-reliance is more important that people's lives, or at the very, very least, that said philosphical meanderings are more important to the writers than the established world-building, which is in my eyes a completely unforgivable sin.

That is of course, assuming they didn't do it just to have some pointless explosions, which is equally as silly, as there was plenty enough stuff to blow up without resorting to the really REALLY tired old cliche of "it's The End, everything must be asploded."

Out of universe, as an artistic statement, it makes sense as I've previously stated. The Catalyst blows up the mass relays, because they said so. That's how the developers decided to have the Catalyst work and the player can't just say to the developer "No, Mass Relays don't work that way." The developer and creator of the Universe has the ultimate last word.

Actually, they don't get the last word. They get to say "it happens this way" and then I get to say "that's pants-on-head-crapping-stupid."

[Psyren]

Ah, I see. So the Protheans were filling their VIs with unnecessary data on unrelated, top secret projects.

Would it really be "unnecessary?" Say the Protheans managed to complete the Crucible, but the Reapers disabled the Widow relay. Deploying the Crucible to the Catalyst timely would then require some knowledge of Relay technology in that case, would it not?

And you're forgetting how Prothean VIs are created - by imprinting the personality and knowledge of a top Prothean scientist. So what Vendetta knows is dependent on what his creator or creators knew.

Finally, you have yet to address the Reaper point.

Actually, they don't get the last word. They get to say "it happens this way" and then I get to say "that's pants-on-head-crapping-stupid."

That's the last word in your game, perhaps - but to the millions of customers who won't hear that opinion, it won't be.

[TheLaughingMan]

That prior statement was entirely directed out of universe. I was - perhaps not very clearly, I'll grant you - saying that the basic concept that the mass relays needed to destroyed because they were a crutch to galactic development is risible (and, for that matter, in my opinion HAS no artistic merit), as it, even indirectly, and in passing, suggests that some philosophical goal of self-reliance is more important that people's lives, or at the very, very least, that said philosphical meanderings are more important to the writers than the established world-building, which is in my eyes a completely unforgivable sin.

It's a bit like having a breathing disorder, and then have someone come up and unplug your oxygen supply because hey you gotta learn to breathe for yourself sometime kid.

[Binks]

Since you ask, no. I prefer permanently ending the threat (Synthesis, or Control given the right parameters.) Destroy, apart from possibly being transient, also results in genociding the Geth - neither of which are appealing to me (but the latter in particular is not.)

So push button/dive into light, die, end reaper threat, roll credits.

I see no reason they wouldn't work with us, assuming Synthesis. We freed them from Starkid's control; they consist of the minds of countless reaped civilizations before ours.

1. Who says they have anything to do with the civilizations used to create them? We have 0 evidence that the reapers preserve anything besides Starkid's very ambiguous words, and he's not the most reliable source.
2. Even if they are the minds of past civilizations, why would they want to help us? They're super advanced flying death machines, we're little piddling organic/synthetic hybrids. For all we know they're just flying off because they're bored and will immediately leave the galaxy to go think in peace.

[Derthric]

Well, as a general rule I'm in favor of the controversial option over the "safe" one. I think that had they taken the time to include proper squadmate/LI epilogues, and show that there was not a galactic dark age after your choices (instead of merely dismissing it via Twitter) then the hue and cry wouldn't have been nearly as vociferous as it is now even with the endings otherwise unchanged.

This is true. The problem is that without it being released its exacerbated the problem so much that its simple addition might not be enough.

I saw it as an artistic decision. The Mass Relay is one of the most iconic pieces of Mass Effect, along with the Citadel and the Normandy. We've probably seen more of the relays than anything else in the games; it's the part that hasn't changed throughout the game and we see the Relays every time we travel between star systems. Destroying the Relays sends a message that the entire Galaxy has changed and there's a new beginning.

Additionally, as Anarion mentions, the Mass Relays are a Reaper invention. This also further reinforces the fact that the Galaxy has changed by removing a major symbol of the Reapers.

I think the developers were definitely blindsided by the "Galactic Dark Age" theory, similar to how George Lucas never anticipated the "Endor Holocaust".

Out of all of the mistakes with the ending, Mass Relay destruction ranks pretty far down. I don't think many people delve that deeply into the lore; I myself didn't consider the Galactic Dark Age until it was raised on this board.

Instead, the biggest mistakes were:

1) Not including an epilogue of a kind like Dragon Age 1. We've come to care about these characters, we want to know what's happened to them. Also, some of the endings like Control and Synthesis requires an epilogue to explain what happened.
2) Lack of differentiation in the endings. Re-using the same cinematics with different colors was a mistake.
3) Lack of customization of the ending. Readiness was a pretty poor implementation of having our choices through the previous games reflected.

The problem with the inferred holocaust is they left so many things blank and asked us to fill them in that those of us who devour lore do so with the info they gave us. Lack of Heavy Industry, mass devastation even in rural areas, 50 hour flight limits on FTL before you melt your hull and electrocute your crew, ships engines being fuel guzzlers, dextro vs levo foodstuffs.

That was their mistake "Speculation for Everyone". The rest of the complaints about closure and making sense derives from that. The other problem being the introduction, explanation and resolution of a new central conflict in 14 lines of dialogue. Even if you see the entire game as the ending of the story its still a last minute re-evaluation of everything you have done to this point. Its going to break the line for acceptable breaks from reality which is why its harder to handwave all the inferred problems that will come about because of the endings.

Since you ask, no. I prefer permanently ending the threat (Synthesis, or Control given the right parameters.) Destroy, apart from possibly being transient, also results in genociding the Geth - neither of which are appealing to me (but the latter in particular is not.)

But that is the problem, the creation of the non-lasting solution. The arbitrary non-death of EDI and the arbitrary genocide of the geth put aside. The creative choice to make one ending be presented as chosing to fail to resolve the conflict as finally defined, is railroading pure and simple. The narrator, in the form of the Catalyst, is sitting there saying "not going to work, moron". It violates the most basic concepts of RPG gaming going back to PnP.

Do we know they haven't thought it through? There is a middle ground between THOUSAND YEAR DARK AGE and No Mass Relays, No Problem! I'm waiting to see if the extended DLC explains the difficulty that arises in the transition between Mass Relay technology and post-Mass Relay technology. I'd be pretty happy with:

"It was a tough decade. We lost a lot of people. Entire colonies starved. But with the new Relay Drive, we could explore the galaxy, unconstrained by the Mass Relays, etc, etc."

Real life analogue: You could say the very same thing about post-WWII Europe and Japan. Japan and Germany were basically reduced to rubble. Fast forward 60 years and visiting Japan and Germany, you can't tell much of a difference. Given enough time and space and peace, the ravages of war won't last. That's not to downplay how hard it was to survive in post-WWII and many people did suffer and die.

I would say that the analogy to post WWII rebuilding does not work. The prime difference is that the means of global communications, and transit are still around. Plus the Industrial Base of North and South America was available to rebuild the devastated countries after the war. Political structures were only propped up by outside intervention from Allied or Soviet force.

The scale of destruction and economic and political isolation that is resultant is more akin to asking the Navies of the world to rebuild in a post Nuclear environment.

No one is saying the Dark Age won't end, but it will be an Asari Lifetime without some sort of semi-miracle or Galactic Marshal plan. And since there is no unaffected Galactic Power who can support such a plan its not going to come to fruition.

It sounds like you're conflating in-universe vs. out-of universe here. I don't think anyone other than the pants-on-head crazy conspiracy dudes IN UNIVERSE would advocate blowing up the Mass Relays, even if they are linked to the Reapers.

Out of universe, as an artistic statement, it makes sense as I've previously stated. The Catalyst blows up the mass relays, because they said so. That's how the developers decided to have the Catalyst work and the player can't just say to the developer "No, Mass Relays don't work that way." The developer and creator of the Universe has the ultimate last word. However, it is also on the developers to guide us from the Mass Relay universe to the Post-Mass Relay universe in a way that makes sense. They haven't done so yet, but I'm taking a wait and see approach.

I think this goes to what many others are saying and something I think we all can agree on. If they had handled the ending with more care, foreshadowing the ultimate conflict and the catalyst, and shown us the ultimate result of this ultimate decision then we wouldn't be as upset as many of us are now. The question is can they salvage it? I am willing to let them try.

[Psyren]

So push button/dive into light, die, end reaper threat, roll credits.

The difference is that Synthesis (and possibly Control) change the galaxy forever. Even this current take on Destroy would, by annihilating the Geth.

The point is that it won't simply just be "blow up the Reapers" and have everything get back to normal immediately. Now, it's a whole new frontier with all sorts of new possibilities, and just enough familiar to emphasize the things that have changed, perhaps irrevocably in some cases.

1. Who says they have anything to do with the civilizations used to create them? We have 0 evidence that the reapers preserve anything besides Starkid's very ambiguous words, and he's not the most reliable source.
2. Even if they are the minds of past civilizations, why would they want to help us? They're super advanced flying death machines, we're little piddling organic/synthetic hybrids. For all we know they're just flying off because they're bored and will immediately leave the galaxy to go think in peace.

1. I answered this already. (1 minute in.)
2. Perhaps. In which case, we fend for ourselves. But at the very least, Synthesis leaves us with the Geth to help, while Destroy does not.

[Joran]

That prior statement was entirely directed out of universe. I was - perhaps not very clearly, I'll grant you - saying that the basic concept that the mass relays needed to destroyed because they were a crutch to galactic development is risible (and, for that matter, in my opinion HAS no artistic merit), as it, even indirectly, and in passing, suggests that some philosophical goal of self-reliance is more important that people's lives, or at the very, very least, that said philosphical meanderings are more important to the writers than the established world-building, which is in my eyes a completely unforgivable sin.

That is of course, assuming they didn't do it just to have some pointless explosions, which is equally as silly, as there was plenty enough stuff to blow up without resorting to the really REALLY tired old cliche of "it's The End, everything must be asploded."

I don't think anybody made that point that the mass relays MUST be destroyed because the galaxy is too dependent on them or any philosophical grounds of them being crutches. You're inferring a political or philosophical statement that I don't see anywhere in the ending.

Instead, my position is that thematically it makes sense as an ending scene. The Mass Relays are a symbol of the Reaper presence as well as an omnipresent symbol throughout the entire series. Destroying them sends the player a message that everything has changed and there is a new beginning.

It's similar to the beginning of Mass Effect 2, where the Collectors come and blow the crap out of the Normandy. Could the developers have set a scenario where Shepard gets spaced, but the Normandy survives and can be salvaged? Could they have begun Mass Effect 2 without having to kill Shepard at all? Sure, but they decided not to, and it hit with a big emotional punch. No moral, political, philosophical statement in the destruction, just that for story and emotional purposes it works.

[Fawkes]

Well, as a general rule I'm in favor of the controversial option over the "safe" one. I think that had they taken the time to include proper squadmate/LI epilogues, and show that there was not a galactic dark age after your choices (instead of merely dismissing it via Twitter) then the hue and cry wouldn't have been nearly as vociferous as it is now even with the endings otherwise unchanged.

Well, yeah. I think it's pretty obvious that there wouldn't have been an outcry if they had actually, you know, put some thought into the ending.

[Derthric]

Gorram double posts.