OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

[AutomatedTeller]

Man, I have no idea where Rich is going with this - from a pure pacing point of view, this is an odd side trip. I mean, swords and chaos spells and staking and washing up for dinner!!!

[happycrow]

Wait! I need closure on that anecdote!

Exact wording is "If you agree not to show me any more memories." I would think letter of the law means that this is whether or not they are requested. That said, I had previously thought memories were only shown when requested (I guess until #1089), so I'm not really sure how this will work.

^ This this this.
That Durkon can throw up memories completely unbidden was not apparent to me either even with the previous refectory memory.

[i6uuaq]

I think the Giant has gone to some trouble here to rule out some of the theories already thrown up on the forum, like the "Show me a weakness of Roy that he has already overcome."

I don't think Durkon will be trying to trick or manipulate Durkon*. I don't think that's who Durkon is. Durkon will continue to try and convince Durkon* that there are better and more noble goals than the destruction of the world, because that's who Durkon is.

I don't think he'll be successful, of course. But it will continue to illustrate the character of Durkon. And Durkon*.

[kiapet]

I don't know, I kind of agree with Greg that Durkon seems like he has some sort of trick up his sleeve.

[Kevka Palazzo]

I think we might count it as a trick, but that probably isn't the phrase that Durkon would use. I think he's gonna try something more straightforward. It's clear that he's trying to leverage Greg's inability to see the connection between memories, but I have no idea how that's going to be relevant. So it'll be fun to see how this works out.

[zimmerwald1915]

Man, I have no idea where Rich is going with this - from a pure pacing point of view, this is an odd side trip. I mean, swords and chaos spells and staking and washing up for dinner!!!

Normally internal conflict is externalized. Here both internal and external conflicts are explored, and juxtaposed.

But it's really the internal conflict that's important and determinative.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Doing the dishes, no time skip

Doing the dishes, Greg will flip

Washing them dishes, what's your plot?

Washing them dishes, all you got?

[Zyzzyva]

Normally internal conflict is externalized. Here both internal and external conflicts are explored, and juxtaposed.

But it's really the internal conflict that's important and determinative.

Yeah, pretty much. The Order chopping up vampires is fun and all, but this book has basically 100% been about Durkon's past and character. This feels climactic to me because we're about to go on a Durkon vision quest.

[Toper]

This is the biggest cliffhanger I can remember since V and O-Chul fought Xykon and Redcloak. (Maybe that time phantasm Xykon walked through the door in the pyramid.)

Between this and his premature villain monologue, Durkula seems to have developed a Nale-esque habit of overconfidence in his own plans and abilities. I'm guessing he gets it from Hel.

In the flashback, "interestin'" seems to have a random extra apostrophe in the middle.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In the flashback, "interestin'" seems to have a random extra apostrophe in the middle.

It's a hiccup. Happens to the best of us.

Or maybe a typo. But I like a hiccup better.

GW

[Kashem]

OK, here's my theories (for all they aren't worth):
Back in 1112 Durkon was trying to show Greg his "workplace orientation seminar" from his first day. If Durkon has so many memories from that day, it must have been pretty significant. I make a point to not assume that anything the Giant bothers to tell us is inconsequential, so I note that the "Boxes of Freezing" are cleaned out on the first of the month. Also, in very classic "horror movie" fashion, "We don't want another infestation of celestial roaches like last year."
I foresee a flood of celestial roaches about to enter the field somehow and, being celestial, do some significant damage to the vamps.

Alternate theory:
Sigdi was the one who cleaned out the "Boxes of Freezing" for the temple, and today is the 1st of the month. She is about to enter the combat. Since Durkula is supposed to be Durkon on his worst day, personified, Durkula will be thrown by Sigdi showing up. Even on his worst day, Durkon could never hurt his mother. Maybe we'll see the line that Durkula can't cross because he's only evil, not EVIL.
Either way, I'm pretty sure Sigdi is about to show up.

The celestial roaches were a joke. Though, after the Chaos Giraffes, it would make this fight even more epic.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Heh, "as smart as you are, plus two points".

Also, the controlled detonation line reminds me that Durkon has pulled this scam before...

Best way to set up an ambush. Tell your opponent what it is, and let them stick their head in the noose anyway.

[PontificatusRex]

Best way to set up an ambush. Tell your opponent what it is, and let them stick their head in the noose anyway.

Indeed, my immediate thought reading this was "It be tea time."

[Jasdoif]

The celestial roaches were a joke.

At the same time, being a joke didn't prevent one from appearing.

[Ironsmith]

OK, here's my theories (for all they aren't worth):
Back in 1112 Durkon was trying to show Greg his "workplace orientation seminar" from his first day. If Durkon has so many memories from that day, it must have been pretty significant. I make a point to not assume that anything the Giant bothers to tell us is inconsequential, so I note that the "Boxes of Freezing" are cleaned out on the first of the month. Also, in very classic "horror movie" fashion, "We don't want another infestation of celestial roaches like last year."
I foresee a flood of celestial roaches about to enter the field somehow and, being celestial, do some significant damage to the vamps.

Alternate theory:
Sigdi was the one who cleaned out the "Boxes of Freezing" for the temple, and today is the 1st of the month. She is about to enter the combat. Since Durkula is supposed to be Durkon on his worst day, personified, Durkula will be thrown by Sigdi showing up. Even on his worst day, Durkon could never hurt his mother. Maybe we'll see the line that Durkula can't cross because he's only evil, not EVIL.
Either way, I'm pretty sure Sigdi is about to show up.

The celestial roaches were a joke. Though, after the Chaos Giraffes, it would make this fight even more epic.

As much as I like the idea of lowest-point Durkon having enough standards that there are boundaries even Greg wouldn't cross, I'm afraid the current situation points away from that interpretation... I don't think Durkon would hurt his infant son on his worst day, either. For that matter, the worst he would do on his worst day is... say mean stuff about the clergy of Thor. I think Greg's proven there's quite the substantial gap between the two of them.

That being said, I'm not sure that Greg is so static that Durkon would be unable to dissuade him from his plan somehow. I don't think this memory is just for stalling.

[Peelee]

Exact wording is "If you agree not to show me any more memories." I would think letter of the law means that this is whether or not they are requested. That said, I had previously thought memories were only shown when requested (I guess until #1089), so I'm not really sure how this will work.

If Durkon could simply not show the vampire memories, then he wouldn't know Roy's name. It's a deal of agreement. Even if the vampire demands a memory and Durkon said, "aha! The deal is broken!".... Then Durkon is just saying "you can kill the baby now."

[AutomatedTeller]

Normally internal conflict is externalized. Here both internal and external conflicts are explored, and juxtaposed.

But it's really the internal conflict that's important and determinative.

Good point. I guess it just threw me a little, all the tactical stuff and now delving deep into Durkon's memories.

[SlashDash]

I wonder what is Durkon thinking? How is it supposed to help with this last memory if the vampire already knows of the possibility of him misleading with a memory?

I think the analogy of "Tea Time" was spot on. I'm expecting something similar.

Back then, he tried to basically just stall until Malack showed up.

Now? Stalling isn't an option.

Here is my theory, we know that Durkon came up with something back in strip 963.

The issue then were 2 memories - one where he tried to help his mom despite her not needing him to and the other where he didn't help Roy when he should. He says they are connected - and Roy's line at the end fills that up for him - he wasn't used to be a team player.

Well... Is Greg a team player? He clealry isn't. He sacrifices his spawns left and right plus he a bit vicious with the whole "you don't have a name"

My guess? Durkon was "betrayed" or felt like that by another cleric on his first day. Or something that got him to resent one of the other clerics - and he wants that thought to sink in to Greg that maybe another vampire will usurp him in Hel's plan.

Like... The Exarch maybe? Getting him to be jealous or fearful might push him to rush to his side and make some mistake.

Man, I have no idea where Rich is going with this - from a pure pacing point of view, this is an odd side trip. I mean, swords and chaos spells and staking and washing up for dinner!!!

True, but let's face it, we're here keep reading his work even after 1100 strips because he knows what he's doing.


And frankly, guessing Durkon's plan is more interesting to me than just seeing another magic missle flying about.

[wumpus]

Heh, "as smart as you are, plus two points".

Also, the controlled detonation line reminds me that Durkon has pulled this scam before...

That didn't seem like a "plot", merely a realization that the situation isn't as bad as it appeared (he was certainly surprised by the ambush).

While I don't have any expectation that Durkon is any good at deception and running scams (he doesn't seem the type of LG cleric with a long history of deceiving by saying nothing but the truth), Greg certainly believes he is.

And those two points of intelligence simply try to overrule the high wisdom, which is what you should be using to see through a scam. Most con artists will prefer to trick a smart guy.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That didn't seem like a "plot", merely a realization that the situation isn't as bad as it appeared (he was certainly surprised by the ambush).

While I don't have any expectation that Durkon is any good at deception and running scams (he doesn't seem the type of LG cleric with a long history of deceiving by saying nothing but the truth), Greg certainly believes he is.

And those two points of intelligence simply try to overrule the high wisdom, which is what you should be using to see through a scam. Most con artists will prefer to trick a smart guy.

First, Strip 264.

Second, a vampire also gets +2 WIS.

[Tarian]

Clearly, the plate is still there because the crack is in the shape of a lightning bolt.

No good gods-fearing dwarf would throw out a lightning bolt symbol blessed plate until it was utterly beyond use.

That, or it's still functional, and there's no use in wasting a still functional plate.

[Dragolord]

Good grief, these are coming quickly nowadays.

[zimmerwald1915]

(he doesn't seem the type of LG cleric with a long history of deceiving by saying nothing but the truth)

Doesn't he? "I count 'able to be picked by a rogue' as a pretty big defect" was his line, after all.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Pretty interesting to see the contrasts in Lawfullness between Durkon and the High Priest of Hel. I also have a feeling that the next couple of strips are going to be emotionally intense, even more so than this one already kind of was.

[JT]

Technically Durkon spoke a non-truth (wont say he "lied" because I don't think there was intent to deceive.

He said the memory would not include Roy, Haley, or any member of the Order.

But there's Durkon, cleric for the Order of the Stick, smack dab in the middle of this memory.

;)

[Peelee]

Technically Durkon spoke a non-truth (wont say he "lied" because I don't think there was intent to deceive.

He said the memory would not include Roy, Haley, or any member of the Order.

But there's Durkon, cleric for the Order of the Stick, smack dab in the middle of this memory.

;)

They're Durkon's memories. They by necessity always include Durkon.

[JT]

But they still include a member of the Order...
By necessity or by choice doesn't change that fact. (Like I said, I'm not claiming he lied. I'm also not going to claim that this will be at all significant. I'm confident that it's meaningless.)

[Kish]

He wasn't a member of the Order yet. He was barely even a cleric.

[Dragolord]

He wasn't a member of the Order yet. He was barely even a cleric.

Which raises the possibility, now closed, of a memory from his and Roy's time together before meeting the others.

[Peelee]

But they still include a member of the Order...
By necessity or by choice doesn't change that fact. (Like I said, I'm not claiming he lied. I'm also not going to claim that this will be at all significant. I'm confident that it's meaningless.)

Imean, if we ignore the incredibly semantic hair splitting, then IMO the best way to put it would be that he was simply wrong. I don't think there's any need, though, since it's incredibly semantic hair splitting.