Should I get Pathfinder?

[Helldog]

But.... I've been arguing for two/three pages that Half-Orc isn't a non-option in 3.5! My avatar is a Half-Orc Paladin for crying out loud!

I really don't understand....

I might have exaggerated, but the fact still remains that in 3.5 half-orc is a poor choice for a Paladin, you get penalized for an unusual fluff concept.
In PF you are not. That a human is a better choice is irrelevant.

[MukkTB]

My group plays PF while allowing all old 3.5 material. There is at least one instance of it happening.

[MukkTB]

That a human is a better choice is irrelevant.

Why is it irrelevant. What if I play a half orc paladin and my brother plays a human paladin? He's gonna always have the edge on me in pathfinder in the exact same way he would have in 3.5.

[Helldog]

Why is it irrelevant. What if I play a half orc paladin and my brother plays a human paladin? He's gonna always have the edge on me in pathfinder in the exact same way he would have in 3.5.

Human is still irrelevant, because we're not comparing human to half-orc.

[sonofzeal]

I might have exaggerated, but the fact still remains that in 3.5 half-orc is a poor choice for a Paladin, you get penalized for an unusual fluff concept.
In PF you are not. That a human is a better choice is irrelevant.

Not really. Half-Orc Sorcerers are at a big disadvantage, but Paladins are expected to be investing in both Strength and Cha anyway. I walked through the expected result two pages ago. It's pretty much a wash. The only downside is that you miss out on the feat and skillpoint bonus, but that's still a problem in PF. The ability score disparity has been massively overstated, at least as far as Paladin is concerned.

[MukkTB]

Human is still irrelevant, because we're not comparing human to half-orc.

We are every time we decide to roll a half orc instead of a human.

[Helldog]

We are every time we decide to roll a half orc instead of a human.

So if we already decided on the half-orc... why is the human relevant?

Not really. Half-Orc Sorcerers are at a big disadvantage, but Paladins are expected to be investing in both Strength and Cha anyway. I walked through the expected result two pages ago. It's pretty much a wash. The only downside is that you miss out on the feat and skillpoint bonus, but that's still a problem in PF. The ability score disparity has been massively overstated, at least as far as Paladin is concerned.

The half-orc is still better of as a Paladin in PF then in 3.5.

[MukkTB]

If we're restricted to only playing half orcs then giving the half orcs +2 doesn't make pathfinder any better of a game than 3.5. The DM can just give the monsters +2 and go on his merry way. Or he can choose to not give the monsters +2 and you can beat on weaker victims. Where is the improvement?

[Helldog]

If we're restricted to only playing half orcs then giving the half orcs +2 doesn't make pathfinder any better of a game than 3.5. The DM can just give the monsters +2 and go on his merry way. Or he can choose to not give the monsters +2 and you can beat on weaker victims. Where is the improvement?

I don't understand what you're trying to say. In 3.5 half-orcs get +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha, making it suboptimal for some concepts. In PF they get +2 to any one attribute, making it okay for most (if not all) concepts. That's not an improvement?

[MukkTB]

I don't see how its an improvement. Its just bigger numbers. Its just different. In fact before half orcs had a lot of flavor directly from their racial stat adjustments that I liked.

[sonofzeal]

The half-orc is still better of as a Paladin in PF then in 3.5.

I still don't see the relevance. Again, we're back to a situation where I can create the ZealFinder system and give everyone +2 to all stats compared to 3.5 - ZF Half-Orcs would make better Paladins than in 3.5, right? Does that make ZF a better system?

[Helldog]

I still don't see the relevance. Again, we're back to a situation where I can create the ZealFinder system and give everyone +2 to all stats compared to 3.5 - ZF Half-Orcs would make better Paladins than in 3.5, right? Does that make ZF a better system?

Don't be silly. we're not talking about some homebrewed system of yours.

I don't see how its an improvement. Its just bigger numbers. Its just different.

It makes more concepts viable.

[sonofzeal]

Don't be silly. we're not talking about some homebrewed system of yours.


It makes more concepts viable.

By the standards of 3.5, Half-Orc Paladin is entirely viable. I've played one and it was fine. They even get a nifty racial substitution!

[Helldog]

By the standards of 3.5, Half-Orc Paladin is entirely viable. I've played one and it was fine. They even get a nifty racial substitution!

Anecdotal evidence a fact does not make, I'm afraid.
And the PF version is still better, not just because it has higher numbers, but because it doesn't have unnecessary penalties.

[MukkTB]

And then Zealfinder could invade 3.5 killing all the weakling characters without +2 to everything. Go Zealfinder. Go forth and slaughter them.

[sonofzeal]

Anecdotal evidence a fact does not make, I'm afraid.
And the PF version is still better, not just because it has higher numbers, but because it doesn't have unnecessary penalties.

The non-anecdotal evidence is way back here. In practice, +2str/-2cha is a wash, balances out evenly for Paladins.

[Helldog]

PF half-orc is still better. I'll take no penalties (don't even care about the bonus) over two penalties for one bonus any day, thank you very much.

[Helldog]

(Sorry for double post. I tried to edit, but my browser was acting strange.)

Okay. So a half-orc Paladin isn't that bad.
Now make a Wizard. Or Sorcerer. Or Bard.

[sonofzeal]

PF half-orc is still better. I'll take no penalties (don't even care about the bonus) over two penalties for one bonus any day, thank you very much.

The extra -2 Int is pretty meaningless for Paladin. Your skillpoints are the same between 8int and 6int, and really the only situation it matters for is if you're taking Int damage.

[Helldog]

The extra -2 Int is pretty meaningless for Paladin. Your skillpoints are the same between 8int and 6int, and really the only situation it matters for is if you're taking Int damage.

What about a Wizard?

[sonofzeal]

What about a Wizard?

Point... but I'm not sure I mind certain obviously-awkward concepts being less effective. Half-Orcs can play Wizards or Sorcerers in 3.5; they won't be as good as Humans, again, and by even a greater margin. But a well-played Orc Wizard is still more effective than most other character, so it's not like it's prohibited. And I like that - I like that 3.5 lets you do things even if they're not ideal.

Incidently, PF turns Half-Orc from the worst race for Wizards into one of the best. Elves get +2 int, but a Con penalty sucks for mages. Really, the choice is between Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, and Humans from an optimization point of view. And I'm not sure how comfortable I am with that. I'm all for a wider variety of possible characters, but it's a little troubling to see Half-Orcs excelling at Wizardry over Elves, Halflings, Dwarves, and Gnomes.

[Doug Lampert]

I might have exaggerated, but the fact still remains that in 3.5 half-orc is a poor choice for a Paladin, you get penalized for an unusual fluff concept.
In PF you are not. That a human is a better choice is irrelevant.

It's playable in both systems. So the "penalty" in 3.5 is what? That you'd be stronger as something else is the only POSSIBLE penalty that can matter.

And that got worse in PF.

[Helldog]

Incidently, PF turns Half-Orc from the worst race for Wizards into one of the best. Elves get +2 int, but a Con penalty sucks for mages. Really, the choice is between Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, and Humans from an optimization point of view. And I'm not sure how comfortable I am with that. I'm all for a wider variety of possible characters, but it's a little troubling to see Half-Orcs excelling at Wizardry over Elves, Halflings, Dwarves, and Gnomes.

Well, a half-orc and half-elf is in part a human, one of the best races, so...

[LordBlades]

I don't understand what you're trying to say. In 3.5 half-orcs get +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha, making it suboptimal for some concepts. In PF they get +2 to any one attribute, making it okay for most (if not all) concepts. That's not an improvement?

Not really.

Having a penalty in some stats (it's actually 1 stat penatly for most builds, since builds that need int don't need cha and viceversa usually) is suboptimal for build requiring them when other races have a 0 modifier in those stats.

However, having few bonuses is also suboptimal when other races have many.

And before somebody says 'we're not comparing it yo race x', the moment you're using optimal/suboptimal terminology you start comparing (if there were no other races, half-orc would be by default the optimal race for any build, even with -10 to each stat).


What PF did is disguise half-orc's subotpimality better. In 3.5, if you read half-orc, and nothing else, and you see -2 cha, you'll probably think 'this might not be the best sorcerer/paladin ever'. In PF, you read half-orc and see some bonuses. Without reading the other races, there's no way to see they're not that much by comparison.

Also, 3.5 half-orc has a niche (only +2 str race in core). What's the PF half-orc's niche?

[Helldog]

What's the PF half-orc's niche?

I don't care. In PF the half-orc is a viable choice for any concept and that's what important here.

[LordBlades]

I don't care. In PF the half-orc is a viable choice for any concept and that's what important here.

For many concepts it's about as viable (compared to a given race, like human) as the 3.5 half-orc is compared to the 3.5 counterpart.

[Helldog]

For many concepts it's about as viable (compared to a given race, like human) as the 3.5 half-orc is compared to the 3.5 counterpart.

Not really. A Wizard doesn't care about the Str boost and is hurt quite a bit by the Int penalty.
A Sorcerer also cares not about Str, suffers from the Cha penalty and gets even less skillpoints then usual.
The Dread Necro, Archivist, Beguiler, Psion, ect., they all are not very viable. Yes, you could play them, but still the PF half-orc is better off playing them. And it even has some not that bad favorite class alternatives for the old and new classes.

[LordBlades]

Not really. A Wizard doesn't care about the Str boost and is hurt quite a bit by the Int penalty.
A Sorcerer also cares not about Str, suffers from the Cha penalty and gets even less skillpoints then usual.
The Dread Necro, Archivist, Beguiler, Psion, ect., they all are not very viable. Yes, you could play them, but still the PF half-orc is better off playing them. And it even has some not that bad favorite class alternatives for the old and new classes.

As a full caster, you're SAD as ****. And given how strong most of your examples are (full casters/manifesters, they do just fine with a 16 in casting stat as opposed to 18). Trust me, a 16 cha sorc/16 int wizard is way more viable than a 18 across the board fighter.

3.5:
Half orc sorc gets -2 cha, 1 less sp and that's it; definitely a suboptimal choice
He's 1 DC and 2 sp behind


On the other hand in PF:
Half orc sorc gets +2 cha and +1/2 HD damage to fire spells; which looks nice and good until you realize you're missing out 1 spell known per level. This adds up to 20 less spells known over the course of a game. I'll take my -1 DCs and -2 sp thank you.

[Helldog]

missing out 1 spell known per level.

How? vknvldfnvldnv

[LordBlades]

How? vknvldfnvldnv

Human sorcerer can get +1 spell known/level.