Paladin meeting good succubus.

[Frosty]

You've removed something that is actively corrupting the physical plane with its very presence. Whether her intentions were good or not she was negatively affecting the lives of those people. If this was "killing orcs is always good" or "killing teiflings is always good" then you'd have a point, but demons aren't just usually evil, they're *unclean* -they damage everything around them on the material plane. if the succubus wanted to do good she would reside on another plane where the effects wouldn't be so bad instead of going all Marie Antoinette on us.

You have no proof that demons have "evil radiation" that harms others that by their presence. At least not for 3.5 and PF.

BoVD is 3.0

[Zanos]

Yeah, as the bad book says...

As someone else pointed out, that's a variant rule. But the BoVD also says in non-variant rules that alignment is objective, Evil and Good are cosmic forces, destroying fiends is always Good, and consorting with fiends is always Evil.

BoVD is 3.0

It's valid for 3.5 unless contradicted, which it generally is not. It's also given legitimacy by being mentioned several times in BoED as a companion book.

[exelsisxax]

Yeah, as the bad book says...

If D&D settings actually worked like that book says they'd be almost unrecognizable. There's a reason FR doesn't actually work like that. But, is that for evil only, or all alignments? Is lasting law a thing? If so, all outsiders need to be killed or banished on sight.

[Zanos]

If D&D settings actually worked like that book says they'd be almost unrecognizable. There's a reason FR doesn't actually work like that. But, is that for evil only, or all alignments? Is lasting law a thing? If so, all outsiders need to be killed or banished on sight.

Considering that there's a (popular) Faerun specific prestige classes that, in lore, focuses on closing planar breaches, it probably does.

[Spellbreaker26]

I can just imagine a rogue wizard summoning a bunch of Modrons in order to alter his classroom and boost his student's math scores.

[asnys]

I can just imagine a rogue wizard summoning a bunch of Modrons in order to alter his classroom and boost his student's math scores.

Hmm... Do you know where I could buy a scroll of gate, and what the gp-to-USD conversion ratio is?

[Frosty]

Let's assume for the moment that in the setting the OP is asking his question about, that evil outsiders do not cause harm with their mere literal presence. Is it still ok to just slaughtered any that you see?

[Inevitability]

Let's assume for the moment that in the setting the OP is asking his question about, that evil outsiders do not cause harm with their mere literal presence. Is it still ok to just slaughter any that you see?

Well, the main justification for evil outsiders being bad even when not doing evil just went away, so I'd say it's not okay anymore.

[LoyalPaladin]

Hey. It's your paladin speaking. It's been a while since I've been in this subforum. But I'm here now and that's what is important.

Lets say there's a paladin (we'll call him Pally) of an order that despises fiends, and has made it his life's work to eliminate all demons from the world. He comes to a town and spots a succubus (we'll call her Succy) in town. I'd picture Pally's first reaction would be to attack Succy. However, Succy is actually a good succubus, and has been living in the town and helping around, and the whole town knows that she's not evil. So the town rushes to her defense and rebukes Pally. What would Pally do?

First of all, any paladin worth his salt knows better than to "smite first and ask questions later". Detect evil is a filter for evil, not a foolproof security system. You use it to find threats and resolve them. It was mentioned before, but paladins make good faces because they get diplomacy as a class skill and they need charisma to function. So it's not outlandish to believe even a fairly gruff paladin wouldn't at least offer some fighting words before the smiting began. In which case, the paladin would be able to obtain information that gave him a reason not to start hacking the fiend to pieces.

I can picture some results:

1. Pally attacks Succy while avoiding unnecessary collateral
2. Pally is convinced the whole town is evil and wastes it
3. Pally understands the town and lets Succy live... this once

These are not even close to the variety of results that could happen. You could have everything from cold blooded murder to the paladin offering to teach the succubus the ways of good. Paladins, like so many other classes, come in a variety of flavors. An order of paladins that follow ideals to the point of hack'n'slash murder sprees sounds like a paladin of slaughter to me, but plenty of DM's let things like that count as LG because they are heretics have some issue with paladins in general.

Now, suppose Pally decides that ALL demons must be eliminated no matter what, would he be committing an evil act by attacking Succy (and possibly the town)? Assume the good deity, although he loathes to admit it, accepts that Succy is indeed not evil.

Lots of things here. The paladin isn't just committing an evil act, he's pulling a Miko and committing straight up murder. Fall him by all accounts. Evil act, murder, disgracing his order, disobeying his god, etc.

I don't say that lightly, by the way. There are very few occasions I'd say it is okay to fall a paladin.

He might try and convince her to undergo a casting of Polymorph Any Object to become a regular humanoid. No longer a demon, no longer a problem.

The Ritual of Alignment (Savage Species, Page 148) would allow the succubus to change her type to [Good] Outsider.

Wait, you're using Miko as an example for Paladins? Remember how she became a Fighter with no Bonus Feats by the end?

Valid statement above. Miko is a terrible example of a good person, she can't even hold a candle to what a paladin should be.

Because Succy is going to still ping Evil because of her Demon Heritage, even if she is in actual practice and by actual personal choice freaking Exhaulted Good, Pally Attacks her. Because he Used Detect Evil on a Demon, Demons being known for lying through there teeth with extreme convincingness, while she was trying to tell him she wasn't evil. Except is super awesome pally powers of Rightouness detected Evil Anyway. So he drew the obvious conclusion. She's lying through her teeth.

He then kills her with minimal Collateral, cause, hey, Demons charm and dupe people, not there fault really.

Paladins have great saves and Sense Motive as a class feature. They're given plenty more tools than just Detect Evil, so I'd offer that a paladin who jumps to that conclusion so fast is not putting all his effort into his occupation.

I'd also offer that I, and a lot of other paladin players, like to prestige into Fist of Raziel. I only mention this because it gives you pretty great coverage against mind effecting effects. But that's just mechanically speaking, so it is less important to the topic at hand.

Paladin then falls because the Paladin Class is incredibly mindbogglingly awful like that.

Paladin really didn't luck out in 3.5, unfortunately. The class is tier 5 on its own and game with a handy self-destruct button which is even worse. But I think any decent GM can handle a paladin player well enough to not destruct their class because he stepped on a bug that happened to be a celestial horsefly. I've played paladins with great GM's and terrible GM's, so that's speaking from experience.

[Spellbreaker26]

Let's assume for the moment that in the setting the OP is asking his question about, that evil outsiders do not cause harm with their mere literal presence. Is it still ok to just slaughtered any that you see?

a] The vast majority of fiends will have committed crimes enough to earn the death penalty five times over, over the course of centuries.
b] The number of fiends that have become non-evil is small enough to count on one hand, whereas the number of evil fiends is virtually limitless

Even then... even considering the tiny proportion of good fiends... is it right to condemn one for the sake of the many?

Considering that they just go off to hell to rematerialise... safety first. Smite away, pally.

[exelsisxax]

Let's assume for the moment that in the setting the OP is asking his question about, that evil outsiders do not cause harm with their mere literal presence. Is it still ok to just slaughtered any that you see?

Depends if they are sentients or not. If outsiders are golems, destroying any of them is not inherently anything. If they are fully sentient beings with free will, it's definitely not good to kill them whenever possible. That's just fantastic racism.

The only way there is any real argument is if there is some sort of weirdness about their free will or lack of it. Like: succubi are fully sentient, but basically under a continuous dominate that makes them do evil things. So they could be good while [Evil]. Does preventing harm justify killing someone who is good?

[Zanos]

Let's assume for the moment that in the setting the OP is asking his question about, that evil outsiders do not cause harm with their mere literal presence. Is it still ok to just slaughtered any that you see?

It depends. If you use objective morality, there's still a cosmic war between Good and Evil. And even if they do Good, they're still physically composed of Evil, and should probably be destroyed.

If you play with subjective morality or in a setting what there isn't a cosmic war between Good and Evil...maybe. Demons are duplicitous by their very nature, encountering one that is not Evil is extraordinarily unlikely, and left to their own devices they can inflict tremendous harm. Would I risk letting it live? No, probably not.

[Klara Meison]

a] The vast majority of fiends will have committed crimes enough to earn the death penalty five times over, over the course of centuries.
b] The number of fiends that have become non-evil is small enough to count on one hand, whereas the number of evil fiends is virtually limitless

Even then... even considering the tiny proportion of good fiends... is it right to condemn one for the sake of the many?

Considering that they just go off to hell to rematerialise... safety first. Smite away, pally.

>The vast majority of fiends will have committed crimes enough to earn the death penalty five times over, over the course of centuries.

Death penalty isn't even legal in most countries, so murdering succubus while she isn't actively doing anything dangerous would be a crime.

>Considering that they just go off to hell to rematerialise

Not in Pathfinder. Dead while called=dead forever. Also, Abyss, not Hell, different planes.

[Zanos]

>The vast majority of fiends will have committed crimes enough to earn the death penalty five times over, over the course of centuries.

Death penalty isn't even legal in most countries, so murdering succubus while she isn't actively doing anything dangerous would be a crime.

Unless you're playing some d20 modern analogue, it not being legal today shouldn't really be relevant. In any case, the existence of creatures from another plane that live to torment us would probably make most countries rethink their stance on that...

[Spellbreaker26]

>The vast majority of fiends will have committed crimes enough to earn the death penalty five times over, over the course of centuries.

Death penalty isn't even legal in most countries, so murdering succubus while she isn't actively doing anything dangerous would be a crime.

>Considering that they just go off to hell to rematerialise

Not in Pathfinder. Dead while called=dead forever. Also, Abyss, not Hell, different planes.

The death penalty does not exist in many modern societies. In the sort of society DnD has, it's likely to be far more common, owing to a lack of jail space and a need to make examples of people. Also, it's even less likely to be a crime than an evil act. No sane good king is going to have demons given the same rights as humanoids. The only people going to get punished would probably be the town for harboring a demon.

Didn't know that about pathfinder.

[Frosty]

Beyond that, consider the harm you might do by killing this good demon.

Succy is probably guilt-ridden, and would likely go to great lengths to help others (which also has the side effect of proving to others she has reformed). Imagine the good she can do, either by using her vast array of abilities to combat evil directly, or by spying on demonic forces and reporting back to the Crusading Army of Good.

Is it possible that it is Just to kill Succy? Possibly, depending on your system of ethics. Might more total Good be done if she is allowed to live (provided she is monitored and mentored)? Very possibly!

You decide what's mOre importanf: vengeance for the past victims of the succubus, or the well-being of the people that succy can help from here on out.

[Sheogoroth]

Given the circumstances, I'd say he's in the green no matter what he chooses.
Arguably, even if he knew it was a good succubus, he could kill it for the good of all paladins so they could purge evil without their consciences being bothered with- "perhaps, this one could be saved?"

Though it depends on where alignment in your game lands on the Intention Vs. Outcome Axis.

[Spellbreaker26]

Beyond that, consider the harm you might do by killing this good demon.

Succy is probably guilt-ridden, and would likely go to great lengths to help others (which also has the side effect of smprlvog to others she has reformed). Imagine the good she can do, either by using her vast array of abilities to combat evil directly, or by spying on demonic forces and reporting back to the Crusading Army of Good.

Is it possible that it is Just to kill Succy? Possibly, depending on your system of ethics. Might more total Good be done if she is allowed to live (provided she is monitored and mentored)? Very possibly!

You decide what's mOre importanf: vengeance for the past victims of the succubus, or the well-being of the people that succy can help from here on out.

She hasn't sought out mentorship and she isn't monitored. Let's lowball it for the Succubus (I refuse to call her by that name on grounds that it's too funny).
One thousand years old, one hundred people killed.

Then she just moves to a small village and settles down; miraculously the townsfolk do not try to beat her to death or ask for help, not even the religious types.

She just lives there, a potential threat if this mass murderer ever slips back into the role she was literally made for.

She hasn't:
A] Handed herself over to the authorities for her numerous crimes. Would she get executed? Maybe, but that's the consequences for killing people.
B] Sought out someone to help her master her evil side. She needs a Yoda or an uncle Iroh, but she hasn't got one unless the village has one.
C] Started working for the Army of Good in any capacity.

She's not atoning for her sins, she's running from them, hiding in a village. Like I said previously, this is like finding out your next door neighbour was the guard from Auschwitz. She could have been a model citizen for twenty years but she's still evading punishment.

[Zanos]

You decide what's mOre importanf: vengeance for the past victims of the succubus, or the well-being of the people that succy can help from here on out.

I don't consider it vengeance, it's a matter of pragmatism. What are the chances this demon is actually Good? What are the consequences of letting it be? Minuscule and tremendous, respectively.

[Frosty]

I don't consider it vengeance, it's a matter of pragmatism. What are the chances this demon is actually Good? What are the consequences of letting it be? Minuscule and tremendous, respectively.

Thad why, before the paladin has fully investigated the situation, he shouldn't act rashly and needs to demand that the succubus surrender herself into custody, allow herself to be interrogated with all sorts of divination magic, and possibly accept a Mark of Justice. With enough magic it is possible to see if the Succubus really wants to be good. Any reformed succubus would understand why mortals would be suspicious and would be willing to go through these hassles.

She hasn't sought out mentorship and she isn't monitored. Let's lowball it for the Succubus (I refuse to call her by that name on grounds that it's too funny).
One thousand years old, one hundred people killed.

Then she just moves to a small village and settles down; miraculously the townsfolk do not try to beat her to death or ask for help, not even the religious types.

She just lives there, a potential threat if this mass murderer ever slips back into the role she was literally made for.

She hasn't:
A] Handed herself over to the authorities for her numerous crimes. Would she get executed? Maybe, but that's the consequences for killing people.
B] Sought out someone to help her master her evil side. She needs a Yoda or an uncle Iroh, but she hasn't got one unless the village has one.
C] Started working for the Army of Good in any capacity.

She's not atoning for her sins, she's running from them, hiding in a village. Like I said previously, this is like finding out your next door neighbour was the guard from Auschwitz. She could have been a model citizen for twenty years but she's still evading punishment.

ahh I see the disconnect. See, as far as I understand it, in order for a succubus to achieve the good alignment, she would've needed to already have done MANY good deeds, or else she drifts into Neutral at best. See, I am assuming bay Succy here has been actively atoning, and still is when Sir Smites-a-lot finds her in this village.

[hamishspence]

Or, focusing more on attitude than acts - the succubus needed to have an attitude toward Other People that fits very well into Good - very altruistic, very respectful of life, very compassionate - which would imply great remorse for all past evil deeds, and great determination to atone for them.

We know from the OP that they are not just "living there" they are "helping around" as well:

However, Succy is actually a good succubus, and has been living in the town and helping around, and the whole town knows that she's not evil. So the town rushes to her defense and rebukes Pally.

[Spellbreaker26]

Just asking, if Succubi can atone you do realize that opens the door for a balor to just wander into a random village and go "Fear not, stout yeomen, I no longer wish to oppress the souls of the innocent and now intend to become a mere citizen farmer tilling a small plot of land."

[Zanos]

Thad why, before the paladin has fully investigated the situation, he shouldn't act rashly and needs to demand that the succubus surrender herself into custody, allow herself to be interrogated with all sorts of divination magic, and possibly accept a Mark of Justice. With enough magic it is possible to see if the Succubus really wants to be good. Any reformed succubus would understand why mortals would be suspicious and would be willing to go through these hassles.

That sounds like it requires a lot of time and resources, while the next hamlet over is having issues with being raided by a red dragon. You have to allocate resources in ways that are reasonable, and introducing a mind control demon to some of the more higher ranking members of my organization on the only technically existent chance she isn't Evil doesn't sound like wise allocation.

[Frosty]

Just asking, if Succubi can atone you do realize that opens the door for a balor to just wander into a random village and go "Fear not, stout yeomen, I no longer wish to oppress the souls of the innocent and now intend to become a mere citizen farmer tilling a small plot of land."

nore likely the Balor would go fight his former comrades instead of wasting his time farming (he doesn't even need food). And yes, Succubi CAN atone. This is canon.

That sounds like it requires a lot of time and resources, while the next hamlet over is having issues with being raided by a red dragon. You have to allocate resources in ways that are reasonable, and introducing a mind control demon to some of the more higher ranking members of my organization on the only technically existent chance she isn't Evil doesn't sound like wise allocation.

You have a perfect first test. Ask the succubus to help you stop the red dragon. Look. The succubus can get away whenever she wants if she isn't good. She has teleport at will after all. But if she's willing to risk her own physical safety to help others? That should give Pally some good for thought.

[hamishspence]

Balors are too proud to humble themselves like that. Humility tends to be associated with good - and beings that evil are not going to be able to convincingly fake it.

[Aetis]

Has anyone mentioned the Tales of Wyre?

It would be very relevant to this topic.

[Spellbreaker26]

That sounds like it requires a lot of time and resources, while the next hamlet over is having issues with being raided by a red dragon. You have to allocate resources in ways that are reasonable, and introducing a mind control demon to some of the more higher ranking members of my organization on the only technically existent chance she isn't Evil doesn't sound like wise allocation.

To be fair he could try and get an angel in to try and check her out. Though that opens the unfortunate prospect of the succubus possibly causing the angel to fall if she is indeed evil.

[Spellbreaker26]

nore likely the Balor would go fight his former comrades instead of wasting his time farming (he doesn't even need food). And yes, Succubi CAN atone. This is canon.

Why does the Balor have to fight the good fight and the Succubus gets to lay about at home? This is what I mean, fighting fellow demons is the path of atonement, not lounging about (and Succubi don't need food either).

[hamishspence]

The OP mentions that the paladin's god knows the succubus is not evil and (reluctantly) accepts this.

Getting in touch with said deity might be a little tricky - cleric with Commune spell maybe?

fighting fellow demons is the path of atonement, not lounging about

There are many ways to atone. "Helping commoners" might not be glamorous - but that doesn't mean it's not important.

[Frosty]

Why does the Balor have to fight the good fight and the Succubus gets to lay about at home? This is what I mean, fighting fellow demons is the path of atonement, not lounging about (and Succubi don't need food either).

I would expect the succubus to actively fighting evil as well. I assume Succy is doing that for his community. If she isn't, someone needs to remind her that she owes it to the world.

That said, one can fight evil in more ways than physical fights. What if, using her abilities, she can end corruption by exposing leaders who are taking bribes? When a better leader is chosen, she may have helped lower the income inequality in that town.