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2017-09-14, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
Relevant to Belkar morality questions, I think:
Originally Posted by Rich Burlew, in Blood Runs in the FamilyOrth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2017-09-14, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
I'm a Lawful Good Human PaladinJustice and honor are a heavy burden for the righteous. We carry this weight so that the weak may grow strong and the meek grow brave
— The Acts of Iomedae, Pathfinder
Avatar made by Professor Gnoll
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2017-09-14, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
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2017-09-14, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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2017-09-14, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
Without getting into all the "intentionally mysterious self-contradiction is mysterious" and deep setting aspects....The most well-known sources of prophecy in the Elder Scrolls setting are...the Elder Scrolls. Elder Scrolls are of unknown origin, possibly because being "fragments of creation from outside time itself" doesn't make any sense.
In the context of divinations, Elder Scroll archive a lot of knowledge about key events, both future and past, which can be gleaned in small fragments. Knowledge of future events relates to a possible version of the future, and in fact different prophets could see entirely different versions of the same version with the same accuracy. Knowledge of past events is static.
These events are associated with a Hero, a mortal who has the special quality of controlling their own destiny in defiance of prophecy (and other "look I'm the Player Character" qualities). As such, any prophecy could potentially be altered/averted by the Hero associated with its event. The whole setup of Morrowind is basically the Emperor saying "hey, this random person fits the description of the Hero of this prophecy; go get them in a position to swing things in a direction that doesn't suck".FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2017-09-14, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
Adding to this, reading the Elder Scrolls themselves is extremely confusing and hazardous. Its guaranteed to cause blindness of increasing length (up to being permanent), and theres no guarantee that any given reading will actually give any knowledge that can be acted upon. On the other hand, you can occasionally luck out, and get such helpful things as a literal map showing you where the Plot Device is, and other useful information.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2017-09-14, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
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- Calgary, AB
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2017-09-14, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- Bahia, Brazil
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
Jasdoif, Keltest, and georgie_leech: thanks for taking the time to explain!
Now that I get the "minority-report" nature of Elder Scrolls prophecies, I agree with previous posters that it's not likely that Stickverse prophecies work like that. Going by how previous ones (by the Oracle) stood up, it seems that Odin's prophecy would be fulfilled, one way or the other.
(A side note: the Elder Scrolls method seems a very clever way to introduce prophecies in a game that allows you to do whatever you want).
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2017-09-14, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
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2017-09-14, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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2017-09-14, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
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- Calgary, AB
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
Mm, while I love the direction Belkar is turning, I wouldn't expect him to actually start moving down that road until the last book. First he had to learn to change. Then he had to grow a sense of empathy for the things he cares about that don't involve violence. Now he seems to be learning to apply that empathy to things that aren't animals nor of immediate benefit to him.
Then he can start being introspective about things with this new-found conscience and maybe beimg sort of redeemed.
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2017-09-14, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Gondor, Middle Earth
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
I'm a Lawful Good Human PaladinJustice and honor are a heavy burden for the righteous. We carry this weight so that the weak may grow strong and the meek grow brave
— The Acts of Iomedae, Pathfinder
Avatar made by Professor Gnoll
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2017-09-14, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2015
Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2017-09-14, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
About that... Belkar seems to be getting more self-aware, too, and one of the mechanics of Dungeons & Dragons is the ability to up your ability scores a small fragment at certain levels. Given that the most evident portion of Belkar's development came at around a time when he had it rubbed in his face just how bad his Wisdom score was, and a growing need for a better Will save, is it at all possible that Belkar might bring himself up to the Owl's Wisdom point of his own volition?
And if that's the direction Rich is going with this... goddamn that is forethought.
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2017-09-15, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
I liked this a lot. It highlighted Durkon's importance to the group in a series of recollections. There even was some tree-related humor as well.
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2017-09-15, 12:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
I think that I shall never see;
A recurring gag as insidious as the trees.Last edited by Manty5; 2017-09-15 at 12:40 AM.
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2017-09-15, 01:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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- UK (GMT, GMT+1 in DST)
Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
The word "criteria" is plural.
The singular form is "criterion"Real Life? - so what is that then?
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2017-09-15, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
Even then, it's mostly appearances, lately. He talks a lot and plays the "tough guy" attitude, sure, and he's still a jerk, but I have trouble remembering real evil acts since the pyramid. At least not acts the others don't practice regularly, like being a smartass while monsterslaying.
Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe he didn't have many opportunities, and it can be argued that his desert shenigans were not very long ago, timeline-speaking. But there's been a lot less "Hey, Belkar just horribly murdered someone in a funny way" jokes lately.
Not saying he's non-evil, sure, but... The Evil-o-metter is certainly getting lower signals
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2017-09-15, 06:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
The pyramid was, what, maybe a week ago in comic time? How much opportunity has Belkar had to perform evil acts over that time period?
I think the Buggy Lou encounter shows Belkar's true colours. He was also in the position of caring about his cat at that point, just as he is now, but he was perfectly happy to let Buggy Lou enslave a load of innocent people from the caravan he was riding along with. It wasn't until a direct threat was made to Mr. Scruffy that he killed Buggy. So, he's at least advanced to a position where he's capable of caring about some things, but that still leaves 99.9999% of the world's population he doesn't care about and will happily kill if asked.
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2017-09-15, 06:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Montréal, Qc, Canada
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
But (many people agree) the arena was a turning point, and the Buggy Lou encounter was prior to that.
That said, the arena encounter involved unleashing a dinosaur on not-innocent guards, not sure where that falls on the alignment meter. I think the usual D&D-specific "killing evil people and their minions is goodish" ethos can apply, though.
Oh, and great episode.
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2017-09-15, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
Probably a bit more than a week but not quite two. The Mechane was supposed to get to the north pole in ten days, and then there was the Godsmoot detour. It hasn't been a fortnight since Roy got impaled by Tarquin though.
Last edited by Quebbster; 2017-09-15 at 08:21 AM.
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2017-09-15, 08:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
And then I'll just stab him in the heart. The vampire, not Roy. Though, you know, options open.
I'm gonna stuck with "less one-dimensional, no less evil."Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2017-09-15, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2017-09-15, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2017-09-15, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
When your argument relies on marking something the character says against your hypothesis as false, you have a weak argument. In fact, it sounds worryingly circular "I have decided he is less evil, therefore that must have been false bravado, therefore he is less evil".
Belkar still enjoys mass murderer, and delights on the chance to kill people after the arena. "He felt a bit bad about cheating someone... whilst still taking advantage of her, just not getting a free lunch (and possibly some nookie) out of it" is not Neutral action.
I think what I dislike about this whole hypothesis is the underlying assumption that the only way his character can be developed is towards becoming less evil. That is simply not true. Rich may be planning to make him Neutral by the time of his death, but he could also be planning to show off his writing chops by pulling a reverse Miko: showing a heroic Evil character. The second seems far more plausible to me.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2017-09-15 at 09:07 AM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2017-09-15, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
I don't see where you guys disagree on the central point: Belkar can be less Evil while still being very Evil. Personally, I think it's obvious both that Belkar is changing and that he's struggling with how that affects his self-image (see his interactions with Ian and Mr. Scruffy).
ungelic is us
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2017-09-15, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2017-09-15, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2015
Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2017-09-15, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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- Brazil
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Re: OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread
Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
Our battles don’t hit theheadlines or shake the earth
But they are few, can’t be everywhere, and we, many
So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
(Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)
"I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"
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2017-09-15, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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