LGBTitp 4: We are family

[Coidzor]

Welcome, one and all.

This is a thread where we Playgrounders, and LGBTitp in particular, gather to discuss, share our experiences, give general advice and support one another in such matters as arise relating to, well, the world beyond heteronormaitivity.

• Everyone is welcome. Let's try to keep from seeming otherwise.
• Keep this topic free of politics and religion. (so, don't violate the board rules, plz)
• It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss whether LGBT is "Right." (And really, most discussions probably should avoid moralizing too much anyway)
• Please refrain from posting sexually explicit content. (Keep it friendly as well as board safe )

If you would rather be anonymous when asking for advice or sharing your story or views, you can use the address below to send a message to be posted in this thread via proxy.

http://anonmail.smeenet.org/

Keep in mind that content which contain strong language may be filtered (Plus, y'know, the forum-filters), and content that violates the forum rules won't be posted at all.

Here are the links for the last few threads, where much of use or interest may be found:

1. LGBT people in the playground
   
2. LGBT people in the playground - part II
   
3. LGBTitp - part III

*modified from the original.



Right, so, SMEE didn't want to make the new thread and a new thread was needed as to be made.



So, who here goes to a social group that caters to your gender/sexuality kit?

I just met a fellow student this morning on the bus in to the school who formed a group for gay college men, professors and students in the area so, well, now you know why I ask.

[golentan]

I... almost hate to point this out. The new thread name can be read as Lesbians for Gays, Bisexuals, or Transgenders in the playground. At which point the tagline becomes...

Um.

Hey guys. New thread.

[Coidzor]

That better?

[golentan]

Yeah. Thanks.

Sorry, I have a weird mind.

[Yora]

I'd like to pick up where the last thred ended:

One last post before letting this move to the new thread.

Serp, dear, IRL we avoid uncomfortable discussions like this and hide because they can lead to hate crime.
So safety before our proud. I'm avoiding it online as well because it could set a precedence to allow myself to end up discussing it IRL.

I agree. Saftey first, there's really nothing wrong with it.

But I think that in most situations, there's a small space where you can push your interests a little bit, with a very small threat to yourself and others. And if you chose to not resolve to full frontal activism, I think no one would think less of a person. But in think in relatively safe places, everyone should feel oblieged to further the cause (whatever it might be) a little bit.

In german we have the expression "hushed to death". But you can't remove a problem by trying to not to talk about it. It only makes things worse.

Regarding offending people without knowing it: I think serpentine has it right. If people talk about things they don't know, they do it either because they think they know everything better, or because they want to know more. In the case at hand, it's also about knowing more about how to be not offensive. So we really need people to tell us "that's not really a nice thing to say".
Last year I worked on a project with a certain group of people, which mentioning would probably get me banned, about which we wanted people to educate to help removing prejudice. And apparently we got the wrong individuals for that, because they were making everything much more complicated. And believe me, it's really frustrating if people, who get a lot of prejudice, are your main problem in removing said prejudice.

Not to say anyone did that here, I've not been reading the thread for the last couple of days. But I think it's very important to reach out to people who want to help and inform, even if they got everything wrong yet.

• Keep this topic free of politics and religion. (so, don't violate the board rules, plz)

I see why you said that, knowing very well myself that some people are really out for people who break that rule.
But how?!

How can you talk about minority rights and morality without including the subjects of politics and religion?

I think that would make an interesting topic for a serious discussion. If not for the fact that we'd all be banned within 30 min.

[bluewind95]

I participated in that discussion on the other thread and I deeply apologize if anything I said was offensive.

[FlyingWhale]

I'd like to pick up where the last thred ended:


I agree. Saftey first, there's really nothing wrong with it.

But I think that in most situations, there's a small space where you can push your interests a little bit, with a very small threat to yourself and others. And if you chose to not resolve to full frontal activism, I think no one would think less of a person. But in think in relatively safe places, everyone should feel oblieged to further the cause (whatever it might be) a little bit.

In german we have the expression "hushed to death". But you can't remove a problem by trying to not to talk about it. It only makes things worse.

Regarding offending people without knowing it: I think serpentine has it right. If people talk about things they don't know, they do it either because they think they know everything better, or because they want to know more. In the case at hand, it's also about knowing more about how to be not offensive. So we really need people to tell us "that's not really a nice thing to say".
Last year I worked on a project with a certain group of people, which mentioning would probably get me banned, about which we wanted people to educate to help removing prejudice. And apparently we got the wrong individuals for that, because they were making everything much more complicated. And believe me, it's really frustrating if people, who get a lot of prejudice, are your main problem in removing said prejudice.

Not to say anyone did that here, I've not been reading the thread for the last couple of days. But I think it's very important to reach out to people who want to help and inform, even if they got everything wrong yet.



I see why you said that, knowing very well myself that some people are really out for people who break that rule.
But how?!

How can you talk about minority rights and morality without including the subjects of politics and religion?

I think that would make an interesting topic for a serious discussion. If not for the fact that we'd all be banned within 30 min.

Neither have I, unfortunately... That was something I was wondering about for myself. I have a very limited idea of what is going on out there with everyone involved here, and especially the lesbian gay bi and transgendered people, myself not being one. I'd love to reach out, help, inform, and, anything. I care about people and certainly wouldn't want to offend anyone, and my posts do, for what ever reason, seem to be gibberish.

I feel like a TV bit for being eco-friendly... What can I, just a regular person, do to make a positive impact? Am I the only one who feels insignificant?

Also @Yora~~~ That line between sharing and pushing... That's a pushy line, like porridge too hot and porridge too cold. Stupid line.

[SMEE]

I agree. Saftey first, there's really nothing wrong with it.

But I think that in most situations, there's a small space where you can push your interests a little bit, with a very small threat to yourself and others. And if you chose to not resolve to full frontal activism, I think no one would think less of a person. But in think in relatively safe places, everyone should feel oblieged to further the cause (whatever it might be) a little bit.

Agreed. That's why this thread reached the 4th incarnation. That's why the anon mailer is still up and my PM box is open for anyone who want advise regarding the matter.

But don't ask me to take part on a discussion like the one that took over the end of the last thread. Been there, done that, ended up hurt.

[Jacklu]

I mostly stayed out of the discussion because while what I felt was contradictory to what was being discussed and often agreed upon, I also know there I have nothing to back it up besides my own feelings as a TG individual. I felt very much like a little kid sitting at the end of the kitchen table while his parents argued about him at the other end. It was very much pertaining to me, but I felt like my opinion and feelings where not really a factor in the discussion. Anyways, that's just how it felt to me.

Moving on to other topics, (aka, please don't quote the first half of this and strike up the previous discussion) I am thinking about checking out my college's LGBT club, but am very nervous about going. Mostly because it will be the first IRL action I have taken that might even suggest to people that I am not "normal."

[Derjuin]

I've had similar feelings, Jacklu... I thought about joining the one at my school, but there are only 3 people in it right now

[Ishmael]

I'm thinking about checking out the Queer scene at my college too! Except, well, I think my situation's sort of the opposite of yours, Derjuin. Rather than three people, well, the 'scene here is rather large and well established, and that's sort of scary, since I'm naturally sort of introverted, and I'm not sure if I'll fit in there. Hearsay tells me it's rather flamboyant, promiscuous, and stereotypical, and filled with queens--which is like the complete opposite of what I'm looking for. But I do want to meet other gay people...

But one of my friends is going to go with me, and we're going to check out the QARC (Queer Alliance and Resources Center), and maybe meet some people. It's sort of scary. Ever since I finally came out as gay, I've been sort of struggling with how I function within the larger queer community. Because, well, I don't really agree with the idea of a 'queer community'--I'd rather a single community existed, where one's sexuality didn't matter. Ultimately, I don't want to define myself by whose pants I want to be in.

But I suppose a cohesive gay scene does make things feel comfortable, and does make dating easier. Not that I really worry about homophobia here. I'm blessed to go to school in one of the most tolerant places in the United States: Hippieville (that is, Berkeley)...

[golentan]

I'm thinking about checking out the Queer scene at my college too! Except, well, I think my situation's sort of the opposite of yours, Derjuin. Rather than three people, well, the 'scene here is rather large and well established, and that's sort of scary, since I'm naturally sort of introverted, and I'm not sure if I'll fit in there. Hearsay tells me it's rather flamboyant, promiscuous, and stereotypical, and filled with queens--which is like the complete opposite of what I'm looking for. But I do want to meet other gay people...

But one of my friends is going to go with me, and we're going to check out the QARC (Queer Alliance and Resources Center), and maybe meet some people. It's sort of scary. Ever since I finally came out as gay, I've been sort of struggling with how I function within the larger queer community. Because, well, I don't really agree with the idea of a 'queer community'--I'd rather a single community existed, where one's sexuality didn't matter. Ultimately, I don't want to define myself by whose pants I want to be in.

But I suppose a cohesive gay scene does make things feel comfortable, and does make dating easier. Not that I really worry about homophobia here. I'm blessed to go to school in one of the most tolerant places in the United States: Hippieville (that is, Berkeley)...

Yeah. I sympathize. I've never gotten into "gay culture." A lot of people would tease me and make high school type gay jokes. I'm sure everyone's heard the sort. When I kissed someone in response, their response was "But... you're straight. You like straight things. You saw me naked." Yep. Thanks for that by the way. You know who you are. Call me?

That being said, I've met a lot of similar minded people in my area, and you don't have to do anything you don't feel comfortable doing to fit in.

Oh, and turns out we're neighbors relatively speaking! I live about 2 hours south of you the way I drive. Crazy hippy berkelyites, stay off my hippy Santa Cruz lawn!!!

[Icewalker]

I would just like to throw in a little comment about something I learned recently: when most people say bisexual, they probably mean pansexual. Bisexual is attracted to both men and women, but pansexual also includes people who don't specifically fall into one of those two categories definitively (like a lot of people in this thread!).

Straight myself, but my group of friends has an actually kind of ridiculous portion of LGBT individuals. Which is awesome.

[Rettu Skcollob]

I would just like to throw in a little comment about something I learned recently: when most people say bisexual, they probably mean pansexual. Bisexual is attracted to both men and women, but pansexual also includes people who don't specifically fall into one of those two categories definitively (like a lot of people in this thread!).

Straight myself, but my group of friends has an actually kind of ridiculous portion of LGBT individuals. Which is awesome.

It's interesting, yeah. Most people who are pansexual call themselves bisexual either out of not knowing the term pansexual, or the negative connotations associated with it, as I mentioned in the last thread.

[Yora]

Straight myself, but my group of friends has an actually kind of ridiculous portion of LGBT individuals. Which is awesome.

That's okay. We accept everyone, no matter how strange their preferences might seem.

I've had similar feelings, Jacklu... I thought about joining the one at my school, but there are only 3 people in it right now

Ours closed because of lack of interest.

But I think it also seems strange to associate with people with whom you have nothing in common except for one thing, that is not their buisiness.

[Violet Octopus]

Our uni queer circle isn't very stereotypical, and perhaps even in the ones that are, there's a nonstereotypical minority.

It's interesting, yeah. Most people who are pansexual call themselves bisexual either out of not knowing the term pansexual, or the negative connotations associated with it, as I mentioned in the last thread.

I call myself bisexual because I'm not sure if I'm pan. I have not been attracted to people outside traditional genders, but that may just have been a probability thing. I do hope I'm pan though.

[llamamushroom]

Just a quick question, as a sort of "how could I have handled this less awkwardly" advice... thing. Sorry, mind not at 100%.

The question needs a bit of set up - I go to an all boys school, and one of my friends only recently discovered I'm gay. I admit that the only reason I started hanging around him was because of a crush, but that disappeared once we actually became friends.

Anyway, it's 5 minutes before the end of the period, the teacher's distracted by the shameless hooting of testosterone-charged 'young adults', and (let's call him) Phil turns to me and asks who I think the most attractive guy in our year is. Slight problem: first name that turns up is 'Phil'. I ...umm... and ...errr... and say "I never really thought about it".

Now, he's good at reading people (despite apparently having no gaydar - I'm not flamboyant, but it's not that hard to pick), so things have gotten a little awkward in the schoolyard, so to speak.

Anyway, how could I have handled it better? It's a morbid curiosity thing.

[SDF]

Anyway, how could I have handled it better? It's a morbid curiosity thing.

Sarcasm tangent. "Uh, me. Duh." Or an equivalent non-answer that is also a joke. Politicians do it for questions they don't want to answer, and it works in other situations too. I mean it all depends on the message you want to convey, but if you are looking to not deal with the question at hand this is really the way to go.

[Jacklu]

Just a quick question...*snips* ...Anyway, how could I have handled it better? It's a morbid curiosity thing.

I have typically found that if you ever need to convince somebody of something, you need only say the exact opposite in a sarcastic manner. That is, if somebody asks if you like band X, and it would be considered mockable that you actually do, reply with [sarcasm]"Oh, I Love them. I have every one of their albums and listen to them all night long."[/sarcasm] Basically, the most effective lie is the truth dripping with sarcasm. So in that case, I would have responded: [sarcasm]"Oh, you. Totally. I just want to jump your bones."[/sarcasm] You get to tell the honest truth, and he will assume the exact opposite.

As for the pan vs bi thing, I stated in the previous thread that, for me, it isn't so much what I am attracted to, so much as who I can fall in love with. Bi says "I like boys and girls." Pan says "I can fall in love with anyone, and that's what makes them attractive to me." I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that it is coming at the idea from two different directions.

[Coidzor]

Except it's the truth but not the honest truth due to your duplicitous deception, monsieur.

[Serpentine]

Last bit from the last thread, just because it was brought up here, spoilered for avoidance.

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Serp, dear, IRL we avoid uncomfortable discussions like this and hide because they can lead to hate crime.

That seems both counter-intuitive and counter-productive. I cannot see how, outside of incredibly idiotic people who would probably be inclined to hate crime regardless, a dicussion like that could possibly even remotely "lead to hate crime". Maybe it's just another artefact of Dr Mum - I'm always happy to talk to people about weird scars and embarrassing ailments, and don't really understand why other people aren't, for example - but I cannot comprehend how such a discussion* could be anything but healthy, and lead to anything but greater understanding.
To summarise: I disagree very, very strongly, with every fibre of my being, that mere discussion of this sort could be a bad thing. Especially with the faint, no doubt unintended, implication that I'm a risk

*within the normal bounds beyond which any discussion can turn nasty, of course.

Slightly more on topic: The UNE Queer Space is back! Tucked way up behind most of the buildings in a part of the uni hardly anyone goes to on a regular basis, but still...

[Coidzor]

To avoid too many drunken frat attacks of opportunity, of course.

In other news: I was just wondering... Is that really stereotypical and fingernails-on-chalkboard-obvious affected lisp used ironically in order to lampoon the stereotypes and those who hold by them or actually learned to be used as an identifier to potential mates?

Only I've met a couple of people who actually put on that false lisp and accent for daily conversation... Before I didn't even think anyone actually did use it other than, well, actors.

[Serpentine]

It was originally part of "The Breather", a room in a central part of the university that had free tea, coffee, soup and the like, and information on various subject. I never once heard of any "drunken frat attacks of opportunity", or anything like that... Granted, that room's now been completely renervated, but still.
As an aside, my boyfriend's kitten just stuck his nose in my mouth.

[Coidzor]

Well, I was being a bit tongue in cheek. Hmm. What did they want to renovate the space to use for?

Just as long as you don't get the entire head of the kitten in your mouth. That's bad for their psychology, I think.

[Serpentine]

Well, there's a bit of history.
First, a certain politically-associated group got in power of the student union.
Then, they instituted a "heterosexual officer", because just having a queer officer was discrimination.
Then, they drastically cut the budget of the queer officer.
Then, they scrapped the queer (and heterosexual, too, I think) officer completely.
Then, they removed the Queer Space.
Then (or possibly in conjunction with the above, I forget) VSU caused the decay and eventual elimination of The Breather entirely.
More recently, they renovated the entire part of that building (which included the former offices of the now-cancelled student newspaper (est 1947, RIP ~2006), and the still-going tUNEfm radio station), to move the campus bookstore to.

Not that I'm bitter about the way the uni went through those years, no no no

[Coidzor]

Oh wow. The students really dropped the ball on that one.

[Serpentine]

True, but they also used dishonest means to be elected - one person was banned from the uni for it. 'course, just because they basically bribed voters, doesn't mean the election should be declared void and redone

<.<
>.>

>hands over to actual LGBT folks<

[golentan]

No kidding. Yikes.

School authorities can do an awful lot of damage through funding cuts and misappropriations. Maybe you should consider appeals.

On a lighter note:

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KITTY!!!

I'm sure you can figure out which panel matched my expression (non-sarcastically, bizarrely enough) on hearing the word

I like cats.

A lot.

My cat is the only one who understands me. It is using that knowledge to plot my destruction, but I'm okay with that. I can't think of someone who I physically know who isn't actively plotting my destruction at the moment. From Kitty to friends to generals. And a few cosmic horrors.

Sorry, crazed tangent.

[SMEE]

Last bit from the last thread, just because it was brought up here, spoilered for avoidance.

Spoiler

Show

That seems both counter-intuitive and counter-productive. I cannot see how, outside of incredibly idiotic people who would probably be inclined to hate crime regardless, a dicussion like that could possibly even remotely "lead to hate crime". Maybe it's just another artefact of Dr Mum - I'm always happy to talk to people about weird scars and embarrassing ailments, and don't really understand why other people aren't, for example - but I cannot comprehend how such a discussion* could be anything but healthy, and lead to anything but greater understanding.
To summarise: I disagree very, very strongly, with every fibre of my being, that mere discussion of this sort could be a bad thing. Especially with the faint, no doubt unintended, implication that I'm a risk

*within the normal bounds beyond which any discussion can turn nasty, of course.

*sighs*

Spoiler

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Welcome to Brazil. We have carnival, good food and a huge hate crime figure to show off.

Now, if you have read my post regarding that completely, I avoid to take part of such discussions online to not wire my brain that it could be slight safe to discuss those matters at all while I am living here. As I said, been there, done that, ended hurt.
I'm sorry, but I prefer to not be among those we remember on November, 20th.

There Serp. Now back to LGBT matters.

Edit: And we got an anon-mail.

I'm straight and support the gay movement, and i want to get more involved, but I don't know how. I can only relate to a lot of the stuff you have to deal with in the broadest strokes and generally find the "gay culture" off-putting, but damn it i want to help.

My first suggestion is to try to find an LGBT association in your area. They are always needing help and will gladly tell you how you could help them.
The other thing I believe you're doing already, by just treating us as normal people.

[Yora]

That's also my thought. Moral support is probably the most important part.
Doing more is of course better, but just being open and hopefully spreading these thoughts, is allready a great contribution.