OOTS #917 - The Discussion Thread

[Gusion]

I called that Elan would rush in, but I had hopes that Tarquin would halt things in order to save Elan.

Based off of some Giant comments, I suspect that Tarquin would rather kill them all and then just res Elan after the fact and use it as a "teaching moment." So the second half of my prediction is unlikely.

That said, I think if Elan starts doing something really impressive than Tarquin might hold off on sending anything more than the regular army.

I am predicting that he rushes down there and casts seeming. He will make the OOTS look like the rest of the regular army troops (who, if you notice, all look alike.) This will stop the battle as they will likely all fail their will save (DC 21) except for one who might die in some comical way.

Tarquin will, of course, still be able to see them due to his ring. Then it becomes a question of does he actually want to do anything about it himself or not.

I am getting the feeling that Giant actually wants to end this book with Tarquin's death. If so, than obviously Tarquin will get involved and the battle will continue. Laurin will start kicking ass but V will return and the two of them will fight each other (an upgraded Z, really). Tarquin and Belkar both die and the book ends.

[Matt620]

A crazy thoughts occurs. I wonder if Tarquin's "All about me" narrative will set off Laurin or Miron? They're all supposedly a team, but the rules of Drama often mean sub-boss fights of the villain's allies, and their disposable status brought up by the writers to provide the important lesson of sticking bu your friends.

I wonder how the two of them would feel in such an event.

[Kish]

I doubt the level of conceited self-absorption Tarquin is showing in this strip is anything Laurin and Miron haven't seen hundreds of times.

Now, if he at some point spells out in their hearing that he considers his party and Elan's party to be window dressing to the grand story of the clash between Tarquin and Tarquin's hero son...that might cause problems, and it's totally something Tarquin would do because he has no real comprehension of how other people think.

[warrl]

Even if it's true, you're saying "I don't care about communicating with that minority that doesn't share my fondness for Television Tropes." That's the very definition of cliquishness, and a perfect example of Fishing the Lake Without a Walrus.

I don't care to discuss recurring patterns in fiction with people who don't want to bother learning the standard names of those patterns.

I don't care to discuss details of computer programming with people who don't want to bother learning the standard jargon of those who engage in such discussions.

If I'm going to discuss RV plumbing systems with someone, I expect them to know - or learn - what black, grey, and white water are. And what a dump valve is.

EVERY field has its jargon. If you don't want to learn the jargon, you don't want to discuss the field.

[Amphiox]

I don't care to discuss recurring patterns in fiction with people who don't want to bother learning the standard names of those patterns.

I don't care to discuss details of computer programming with people who don't want to bother learning the standard jargon of those who engage in such discussions.

If I'm going to discuss RV plumbing systems with someone, I expect them to know - or learn - what black, grey, and white water are. And what a dump valve is.

EVERY field has its jargon. If you don't want to learn the jargon, you don't want to discuss the field.

I don't actually play D&D. So when I ask a question about D&D mechanics and get an answer that is full of acronyms and numbers, or encounter a post about D&D play mechanics with those weird acronyms and numbers and +-/dX symbols scattered all over. Sometimes I get the gist of the comment just from cultural osmosis to D&D concepts that I happen to have already been exposed to, sometimes not. If I am interested in the post, I go look up the terms. If after looking up the terms I still can't understand it, I might post a question about it. If I am not interested, and move on to the next post.

[littlebum2002]

Is Belkar really that weak? I thought he only lost the HP from constitution. Shouldn't he still have 15d8 (~60) HP from his HD?

I don't know how to determine damage (not a d&d player), but I know he's only getting hit by 1 out of every 20 mooks. So even if he gets hit for 20 damage every time, that's still 60 mooks he can kill before going down and needing a potion.

So am I letting my ignorance of d&d rules show, or is Roy being overly cautious?

[Vemynal]

EVERY field has its jargon. If you don't want to learn the jargon, you don't want to discuss the field.

Not true. As a nurse, if the doctor is spouting off medical jargon to the family about their very sick relative I guarantee you they care and would like to discuss the events.

Sometimes its important to be able to speak and convey ideas as a layperson would.

[Subaru Kujo]

Is Belkar really that weak? I thought he only lost the HP from constitution. Shouldn't he still have 15d8 (~60) HP from his HD?

I don't know how to determine damage (not a d&d player), but I know he's only getting hit by 1 out of every 20 mooks. So even if he gets hit for 20 damage every time, that's still 60 mooks he can kill before going down and needing a potion.

So am I letting my ignorance of d&d rules show, or is Roy being overly cautious?

His constitution is presumably at a negative modifier, meaning if he rolled low HP, the con mod is biting into the dice. From what Malack said, (drink from the halfling but not the last drop), I'd wager he's at a -3/-4 Con mod. So yeah, several concentrated farts from the enemy could knock him down.

And besides. Belkar's concealment making is doing well. As far as I understand it, even if one of the mooks manages to hit a nat 20 (presumably what it'd take to hit him), they'd still have to roll a d100 to determine if concealment affects the hit at all. So, again, keeping someone alive to keep the concealment up is vital when you are dealing with the at least 500 mooks we can see on the last panel.

[littlebum2002]

His constitution is presumably at a negative modifier, meaning if he rolled low HP, the con mod is biting into the dice. From what Malack said, (drink from the halfling but not the last drop), I'd wager he's at a -3/-4 Con mod. So yeah, several concentrated farts from the enemy could knock him down.

And besides. Belkar's concealment making is doing well. As far as I understand it, even if one of the mooks manages to hit a nat 20 (presumably what it'd take to hit him), they'd still have to roll a d100 to determine if concealment affects the hit at all. So, again, keeping someone alive to keep the concealment up is vital when you are dealing with the at least 500 mooks we can see on the last panel.

Thanks. I forgot about negative modifiers. Now I know, and knowing is half the battle

[War-Wren]

Thanks. I forgot about negative modifiers. Now I know, and knowing is half the battle

G.I .Joe!!

I've been thinking about my last prediction and the double K.O theory...

Spoiler

Show

How about V clears the way to the rift, then (as per my last) Tarquin joins the fight but, after nearly defeating Roy, Belkar rears up and drags both him *and* Tarquin, through the rift. Along with appropriate, you're only a side quest/wasted 200 strips on a B-lister/this is for calling me a side kick type witty exit line. End book.

[jere7my]

I don't care to discuss recurring patterns in fiction with people who don't want to bother learning the standard names of those patterns.

We have been instructed by a moderator to drop this topic.

[Dalek Kommander]

edit: ah, the moderator said to drop it? Probably for the best really.

[Liliet]

Is Belkar really that weak? I thought he only lost the HP from constitution. Shouldn't he still have 15d8 (~60) HP from his HD?

I don't know how to determine damage (not a d&d player), but I know he's only getting hit by 1 out of every 20 mooks. So even if he gets hit for 20 damage every time, that's still 60 mooks he can kill before going down and needing a potion.

So am I letting my ignorance of d&d rules show, or is Roy being overly cautious?

Low constitution does not just "not give bonus", it takes points away. The maximum penalty while still alive is -5. As far as I know, each level has to give at least 1hp, so Belkar has no less than 15 (or whatever level he is) HP. If he had good rolls, probably more (I'm not good with statistics). But in a battle against a huge army, with a dexterity build (no good armor for you)... that's pretty bad.

[skim172]

I don't recall such a rule, but that doesn't mean that it does not exist. Some versions of D&D have melee rounds being a minute long, and some have it just 6 seconds.

But it makes sense. The Roman empire is often lauded for the success of their armies, and the gladius is often lauded as a superior type of sword because of the successes of the Roman armies. If studied, these accolades boil down to "stand in line, keep your shield up, and thrust with your light sword", a method which uses a lot less energy than a great deal of other fighting styles. At the end of the day, having troops who aren't exhausted from swingeing their great swords about really matters a lot.

Been a while since I read up on the Romans, but I thought their big thing was javelins.

Anyway, in real life, swordfighting was a lot less wild swinging and acrobatics than we imagine. Especially when it involved shields, it was mostly small movements to try to gain that small opening for the killer strike. Not all that dramatic.

[War-Wren]

As far as I know, each level has to give at least 1hp, so Belkar has no less than 15 (or whatever level he is) HP. If he had good rolls, probably more (I'm not good with statistics). But in a battle against a huge army, with a dexterity build (no good armor for you)... that's pretty bad.

True and, if I remember D&D correctly (at least, one of the latter versions) would the mooks count as minions (1hp each and deal a flat 5hp if they hit)?
I vaguely remember getting into a fight with a lot of what the DM called minions (this was way before the yellow, pill shaped dudes arrived on the scene!) and they fell pretty quick, but each one that hit left a mark!

If that is correct, and by the law of minimum's given by Liliet (which I view as pretty accurate), Belkar will only be able to take a small number of hits before he's felled and bleeding, with little chance of healing

[Kish]

True and, if I remember D&D correctly (at least, one of the latter versions) would the mooks count as minions (1hp each and deal a flat 5hp if they hit)?

No one counts as a 4ed concept in OotS, unless they're invaders from the Fourth Dimension.

[BriarHobbit]

Presuming that the Order gets to see dusk and gets the necessary time, who would Durkon pray to?

Since Tarquin has not directed the casters to attack, it seems like this is a test of somebody. Durkon goes down when hit by a successful Dispel Magic and Roy is in a kill zone when the mage types start blasting.

Belkar is reduced to a supporting role because Durkon lacks a restoration.

[War-Wren]

No one counts as a 4ed concept in OotS, unless they're invaders from the Fourth Dimension.

It's 4th edition with the minions is it? Ah, my bad!

[littlebum2002]

True and, if I remember D&D correctly (at least, one of the latter versions) would the mooks count as minions (1hp each and deal a flat 5hp if they hit)?
I vaguely remember getting into a fight with a lot of what the DM called minions (this was way before the yellow, pill shaped dudes arrived on the scene!) and they fell pretty quick, but each one that hit left a mark!

If that is correct, and by the law of minimum's given by Liliet (which I view as pretty accurate), Belkar will only be able to take a small number of hits before he's felled and bleeding, with little chance of healing

During the war scene, it was stated outright that the goblins would only hit on a natural 20. I don't see any reason why "mooks" would be any different, unless there is a special D&D rule just for mooks. And if there is, then D&D is awesome.

But then again, why wouldn't goblin soldiers be mooks as well? What determines ones mookitude?

Actually, I just like to say Mook. Mook mook mook mook mook mook!
(What on earth is wrong with me?)

[Subaru Kujo]

During the war scene, it was stated outright that the goblins would only hit on a natural 20. I don't see any reason why "mooks" would be any different, unless there is a special D&D rule just for mooks. And if there is, then D&D is awesome.

But then again, why wouldn't goblin soldiers be mooks as well? What determines ones mookitude?

Actually, I just like to say Mook. Mook mook mook mook mook mook!
(What on earth is wrong with me?)

Mooks as far as I can tell are 1st/2nd level Warriors or other "untyped" classes. So they really aren't that much in combat with level 15 typed PCs. Just things to beef out an army and that works fairly well against other armies.

[War-Wren]

During the war scene, it was stated outright that the goblins would only hit on a natural 20. I don't see any reason why "mooks" would be any different, unless there is a special D&D rule just for mooks. And if there is, then D&D is awesome.

But then again, why wouldn't goblin soldiers be mooks as well? What determines ones mookitude?

Actually, I just like to say Mook. Mook mook mook mook mook mook!
(What on earth is wrong with me?)

In 4ed (thank you Kish) the Minion was introduced, I think mainly to stop DMs having to keep track of lots of minor baddies that the PCs hadn't quite killed last round (which, as a DM myself, is a pain in the butt sometimes!). They had one hit point so if you hit them, they died. But, if they hit you, they did a flat 5 hit points of damage.

As for how determines mookitude (nice word, by the way!) I reckon Belkar does

[Meta-Meta gamer]

Mooks as far as I can tell are 1st/2nd level Warriors or other "untyped" classes. So they really aren't that much in combat with level 15 typed PCs. Just things to beef out an army and that works fairly well against other armies.

Nah, they're probably warriors.(npc class AKA weaksause)

[Amphiox]

Presuming that the Order gets to see dusk and gets the necessary time, who would Durkon pray to?

Since Tarquin has not directed the casters to attack, it seems like this is a test of somebody. Durkon goes down when hit by a successful Dispel Magic and Roy is in a kill zone when the mage types start blasting.

Belkar is reduced to a supporting role because Durkon lacks a restoration.

But, does Team Tarquin at the moment have access to "Dispel Magic"? We actually don't know the class and abilities of Turban Guy, and Laurin is a Psion, so what if it just happens that she doesn't have access to a psionic equivalent to "Dispel Magic" right now?

[J's]

Hmm, élan should have made the argument that only Roy can kill that 'b-lister'. His family quest and all.

Btw, are the ones not liking tarquin's current ineptness the ones that pointed out that a good way to kill him was by him incorrectly genre savvying himself to death?

[Liliet]

Hmm, élan should have made the argument that only Roy can kill that 'b-lister'. His family quest and all.

"What? So you are essentially on someone else's quest? Quit it, you have your own stuff to do!"

...probably.

Btw, are the ones not liking tarquin's current ineptness the ones that pointed out that a good way to kill him was by him incorrectly genre savvying himself to death?

I'm not sure about plural, and I'm not sure about what you mean about not liking Tarq's ineptness.

I absolutely love how Giant develops this character, it's a masterpiece really.

I absolutely hate this character and wish him most painful death and most humiliating defeat, if only so that others don't follow in his footsteps. Because of his mistakes, yes.

And yes, I suggested that Elan isn't going to need some sort of special plan against T's savviness because T is already effectively defeating himself.

[Mike Havran]

I absolutely hate this character and wish him most painful death and most humiliating defeat, if only so that others don't follow in his footsteps. Because of his mistakes, yes.

The others will follow in his trail because he laid out the benefits and they know they won't repeat his mistakes

[137beth]

In 4ed (thank you Kish) the Minion was introduced, I think mainly to stop DMs having to keep track of lots of minor baddies that the PCs hadn't quite killed last round (which, as a DM myself, is a pain in the butt sometimes!). They had one hit point so if you hit them, they died. But, if they hit you, they did a flat 5 hit points of damage.

As for how determines mookitude (nice word, by the way!) I reckon Belkar does

Minions in 4e do not deal a flat 5 hp, they deal damage which depends on their level. They don't roll damage dice though, they do fixed damage, since it would take too long to roll a ton of damage dice

[luna the cat]

I don't recall such a rule, but that doesn't mean that it does not exist. Some versions of D&D have melee rounds being a minute long, and some have it just 6 seconds.

But it makes sense. The Roman empire is often lauded for the success of their armies, and the gladius is often lauded as a superior type of sword because of the successes of the Roman armies. If studied, these accolades boil down to "stand in line, keep your shield up, and thrust with your light sword", a method which uses a lot less energy than a great deal of other fighting styles. At the end of the day, having troops who aren't exhausted from swingeing their great swords about really matters a lot.

it's not about exhaustion, it's about playing "keep away" and using formation to limit vulnerabilities and weakpoints. Think the movie 300 (which has a lot of historical errors, but...), where the same spartans are able to fight for hours because they have a tight, close knit rank and superior discipline and tactical advantage.

Romans carried a "pilum" which was a long light spear. This was their primary weapon; a line of roman soldiers would throw their pilums at the opposing armies. The pilum was designed in such a way that it could not be easily pulled out of whatever it hit; either it would either stick in a shield so that the shield would be useless, or impale someone and cause them to die or be a casualty. Romans would often have two, so they could throw one and use the other to fight with range. Meanwhile, the soldiers would use their long shields for cover and to stay in formation.

The gladius was a side weapon more than anything, and yes, it would be used for quick thrusts. It would not really be considered a superior type of sword; it was cheap, simple, and efficient, and fit into the framework of staying in formation.

This is relevant, because when fighting barbarians, often each individual barbarian was better armed (had their own weapons they made themselves, were battle-hardened compared to fresh roman troops) yet the romans would win and have advantage because of their use of formations and tactics. If you throw javelins at your enemy so that they can't even get close enough to use their fighting prowess, then you have the advantage.

The mooks that Roy, Belkar, and Durkon are fighting are not fighting in formation, are not using good tactics. Roy, belkar, and durkon are fighting in ways that maximize their advantage and minimize their vulnerability.

[stsasser]

G.I .Joe!!

I've been thinking about my last prediction and the double K.O theory...

Spoiler

Show

How about V clears the way to the rift, then (as per my last) Tarquin joins the fight but, after nearly defeating Roy, Belkar rears up and drags both him *and* Tarquin, through the rift. Along with appropriate, you're only a side quest/wasted 200 strips on a B-lister/this is for calling me a side kick type witty exit line. End book.

Spoiler

Show

V returns and the title of the next comic is 'I'm Comin''

[TRH]

This is completely random and has little to do with anything, but it's occurred to me that Tarquin only seems to have a dagger left for a weapon. Not that he couldn't do damage with that, but it just gives me the feeling that he won't be personally fighting again. Not sure why I think this, but it just seems to intuitively fit.