Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Solo]

I demand an apology!

Psst. I'll let you in on a secret.

I was being sarcastic

Seriously, now. I'll wait for your level 6 grappling cleric build, however long it takes.

And you may note that it might have taken a bit longer to create a full guide, with a level 1-20 build that many demanded, with full equipment, than just post the grapple-relevant stats of a level 6 cleric build.
- Giacomo

Don't know about you, but I made my guide and build within a week.

[Solo]

Correction: The optimized monk class is about as good in damage output as the unoptimized fighter class at that level. And remember, you're arguing that monks are good, not that they're similar to the worst class in the PHB.

Objection!
How can fighters be the worst class in the PHB with monks still around?

I say very stiff competition at the least!

[Sir Giacomo]

A monk focusing purely on Strength would never make it past level 1, let alone level 2, let alone beyond 5, let alone to high levels... at which he'd still die. I've seen it tried; the results are messy! Cleaning monk out of your outfit isn't easy, even Prestidigitation doesn't do it.

www.d20srd.org has a monster filter: http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/

Looking up CR 16-18 enemies, they have ACs like 30, 32, 29, 35...
They also have damage reduction, which is hell on multiple-attack-reliant characters.

Suffice it to say, a +16 attack bonus is NOT enough at level 16!

Well, the TOTAL bonus is enough (I explicitly said it's the base attack bonus above)
+ 1 weapon focus
+1 haste bonus
+8 STR bonus
+ 4 enhance bonus (GMW)
+2 morale bonus (heroism or the like)
-2 TW fighting
For a total of +30/+30...etc..

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Well, the TOTAL bonus is enough (I explicitly said it's the base attack bonus above)
+ 1 weapon focus
+1 haste bonus
+8 STR bonus
+ 4 enhance bonus (GMW)
+2 morale bonus (heroism or the like)
-2 TW fighting
For a total of +30/+30...etc..

- Giacomo

And the monsters will stand still while you get the buffs up....

The fighter was optimsed for damage as well. And thanks for bringing it up - yes, the monk then has both stunning fist and quivering palm ON TOP of his damage output that the fighter has not.

Couldn't the Fighter get Stunning Fist with his feats?

This assums that the half-orc build version had UMD. I would not see that as an automatic choice, since he's very powerful and ready to play already without it.

He had a AC 12, a Con score of 10, and a D8 hit dice.

You call that combat ready?


Solo's Grappling Cleric

Will be gradually improved upon as time goes on.

[Sir Giacomo]

Don't know about you, but I made my guide and build within a week.

So did I And since we'll never know how long it really took us, let's leave it at that, OK?
And surely you'll admit that your task was easier...

...would you actually like to compare an Ozymandias build of yours to the Joker Monk? And how they would compare vs each other, or how the contribute each to the group? Ah no, the group thing is already being playtested here.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Now, on this two-weapon-fighting thing.
Of course the monk can use his unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon, since SRD: "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
The effects include feats.
And SRD: "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon."
So, yes, two-weapon fighting feat tree is entirely possible.

All your quotes are exactly correct, and yet your conclusion is still wrong. Because in order for a weapon to qualify as a two weapon fighting choice, it must be wielded in your off hand. That means you must physically hold something in your off hand. The only specific exception to this in core is Armor spikes. Thus, by RAW, unless you can hold your unarmed strike in your off hand (you can't), it is NOT AN ELIGIBLE WEAPON. Period. End of discussion. Moving on.

[Solo]

All your quotes are exactly correct, and yet your conclusion is still wrong. Because in order for a weapon to qualify as a two weapon fighting choice, it must be wielded in your off hand. That means you must physically hold something in your off hand. The only specific exception to this in core is Armor spikes. Thus, by RAW, unless you can hold your unarmed strike in your off hand (you can't), it is NOT AN ELIGIBLE WEAPON. Period. End of discussion. Moving on.

Well, since RAW a monk can use any part of his body as an unarmed strike, he will simply pelvic thrust the enemy first, then wield one hand with the other and use that as the off hand.

[Emperor Tippy]

Core only is not stupid to insist, since otherwise the match would be decided by who has more splatbooks and rules expansions, and would not prove whether a class is weak by itself already in the core rules.

Not really. Cindy can do her thing using the following books: PHB, DMG, Players Guide to FR, Complete Arcane, and Spell Compendium.

And: MoP is not added to an initiative roll.

Initiative is an opposed ability check (and opposed dex check specifically). MoP adds to it.

Could you post your core level 16 wizard as I did my level 16 monk? (though, just as for the joker monk, it would be OK to leave some room open for the wbl for "some nasty surprises"

No, no I won't. If you find a mutually acceptable DM I will send him a link to the sheet but seeing as anyone who saw the spell list could figure out what I was up to I don't think so.

If PrC's are allowed it will be a grey elf Wizard 12/Archmage 4 with maxed Int and Dex. Skills are irrelevant (I don't need any).

[Sir Giacomo]

And the monsters will stand still while you get the buffs up....


Couldn't the Fighter get Stunning Fist with his feats?


He had a AC 12, a Con score of 10, and a D8 hit dice.

You call that combat ready?

Solo, why do you get so desperate to be deliberately unfair?
The buffs needed for the above are just one round, everything else is easily there already outside of combat.
The fighter can get stunning fist, but then he'll get even more MAD, since he needs a WIS of 13, alongside DEX 13. Tough once you put up a STR of 18 at character creation. Plus, he cannot use stunning fist with his greatsword (only with a ki enhancement, which makes it more expensive).
And then, the half-orc monk at high levels could easily get a high AC as well, and a ring of blinking for a lot of good defense.

At low levels, he'll stop anyone trying to get near with his spiked chain. And to take care of ranged attacks, he'll get total concealment up.

- Giaocmo

[Griffin131]

Anyhow, probably that's simply definitions of what we mean.

Okay, lets agree on the webster definition of the word?

5 a: a center of activity, attraction, or attention <the focus of the meeting was drug abuse> b: a point of concentration
(1-4 were dealing with light and disease).

The fighter was optimsed for damage as well. And thanks for bringing it up - yes, the monk then has both stunning fist and quivering palm ON TOP of his damage output that the fighter has not.

No, the fighter was spending his 15 feats on what he could. In core, every fighter takes those feats because they have nothing better to do. Its not about being an optimized fighter, its about being a core fighter.

Both fighter and monk in that contest were assumed to have the same amount of point buy and stat gain going to STR, so there other abilities were actually quite similar (only that the fighter had to overcome MAD to get DEX 15 for being enlarged).

Why does he need Dex 15? Oh, to grapple? That suboptimal way of fighting? Okay, great idea. He'll cripple himself to be suboptimal. Yay!

This assums that the half-orc build version had UMD. I would not see that as an automatic choice, since he's very powerful and ready to play already without it.

Um...

We established that the only way your half-orc monk competed at level 15 was with Divine Power. How are you getting that buff without UMD?

Sigh. The fighter WAS optimised for damage output. And I am not saying taht the monks are better than other classes, only that they are equally strong in their own way.

See above. And no, you've stated your guide was about beating batman. Your guide's title said so, and you posted as much above. You are asserting that monks are better than other classes.

As long as both RAW and FAQ are on my side, there's no need to.

Please quote where the grapple rules say you can use a modified BAB to determine the number of grapple checks you can make. Also, the section in the FAQ if you don't mind. Because all I've read in the SRD says Base Attack Bonus, and the FAQ says you can do the special attack Grapple, but does not allow the checks after you are in a grapple.

[Sir Giacomo]

Not really. Cindy can do her thing using the following books: PHB, DMG, Players Guide to FR, Complete Arcane, and Spell Compendium.

And of these books, unfortunately only PHB and DMG are core.
I am among the first to say that some stuff gets broken fast (aka celerity, belts of battle etc.) the moment you move outside core.

Initiative is an opposed ability check (and opposed dex check specifically). MoP adds to it.

SRD: An initiative check is a Dexterity check.
SRD on MoP: This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw.

So, nothing added to your initiative roll. Sorry.

No, no I won't. If you find a mutually acceptable DM I will send him a link to the sheet but seeing as anyone who saw the spell list could figure out what I was up to I don't think so.

If PrC's are allowed it will be a grey elf Wizard 12/Archmage 4 with maxed Int and Dex. Skills are irrelevant (I don't need any).

OK. But you realise that you COULD need some decent spot and listen to even KNOW where the monk is you wish to defeat?

- Giacomo

[Nebo_]

SRD: An initiative check is a Dexterity check.
SRD on MoP: This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw.

What happens when you make an initiative check? You roll it and compare it to the initiative check of another. If that isn't opposed, what is?

[Talic]

I volunteer the services of DM. I propose the following rules in effect:

All combatants will be aware of each other.

The arena will have no obstacles, or impediments to LOS, save what participants bring in.

MoP does not apply to initiative (I believe Tippy does not need it).

All opponents will have exactly 1 round in which any defensive or buff abilities may be activated, prior to the match beginning.

PrC's allowed, with opponent consent.

Otherwise, only 1 base class may be selected (no dipping).

Books allowed, core only.


All of these rules are designed to give giacomo the environment he thinks is most fair. This is done to ensure that there can be no argument of foul play or impartiality against him. Is this acceptable?

[Solo]

Solo, why do you get so desperate to be deliberately unfair?
The buffs needed for the above are just one round, everything else is easily there already outside of combat.

You know, High level combat only lasts a few rounds because the participants are that powerful. A round is a lot of time.

The fighter can get stunning fist, but then he'll get even more MAD, since he needs a WIS of 13, alongside DEX 13.

The fighter buys +6 items

Plus, he cannot use stunning fist with his greatsword (only with a ki enhancement, which makes it more expensive).

So..... he can.

And then, the half-orc monk at high levels could easily get a high AC as well, and a ring of blinking for a lot of good defense.

Empowered Magic Missile.

Bet you'll wish you had a con score then, and something more than d8 hit die.

At low levels, he'll stop anyone trying to get near with his spiked chain. And to take care of ranged attacks, he'll get total concealment up.

So your monk will spend the battle hovering in a cloud.
That sounds useful, while the rest of the low level party is being ambushed by mounted orc archers*

I suppose you could invite them to share in the cloud, whilst the arrows are flying in.


*Or whatever monster that has ranged attacks as well as melee ones.

[Sir Giacomo]

Okay, lets agree on the webster definition of the word?

5 a: a center of activity, attraction, or attention <the focus of the meeting was drug abuse> b: a point of concentration
(1-4 were dealing with light and disease).

OK.

No, the fighter was spending his 15 feats on what he could. In core, every fighter takes those feats because they have nothing better to do. Its not about being an optimized fighter, its about being a core fighter.

Yes, it's an optimised fighter in core. Which is all I'm talking about here.

Why does he need Dex 15? Oh, to grapple? That suboptimal way of fighting? Okay, great idea. He'll cripple himself to be suboptimal. Yay!

OK, so the fighter has no improved grapple (and no longer even competes to outgrapple the monk), because it's no big use to him. This has been my point already for a long, long time.

Um...

We established that the only way your half-orc monk competed at level 15 was with Divine Power. How are you getting that buff without UMD?

Ring of spell storing.

See above. And no, you've stated your guide was about beating batman. Your guide's title said so, and you posted as much above. You are asserting that monks are better than other classes.

No, I'm not. "Beating batman" is simply an alliteration (hope that is the correct word in English) for a flashy title. The guide shows ways to beat batman, but it certainly does not try to show that a batman is a useless character for the group or that he has no chance in PvP vs the joker monk. Only that he is not ultrapowerful and that in core, both monk and wizard are broadly balanced classes.

Please quote where the grapple rules say you can use a modified BAB to determine the number of grapple checks you can make. Also, the section in the FAQ if you don't mind. Because all I've read in the SRD says Base Attack Bonus, and the FAQ says you can do the special attack Grapple, but does not allow the checks after you are in a grapple.

Quots have been done already. To death. Let's leave it at that. You can handle it for your campaigns in any way you like.

- Giacomo

[Griffin131]

OK. But you realise that you COULD need some decent spot and listen to even KNOW where the monk is you wish to defeat?

It depends. I can think of ways he doesn't have to.

[Sir Giacomo]

What happens when you make an initiative check? You roll it and compare it to the initiative check of another. If that isn't opposed, what is?

I don't know what it is, but it is not an opposed skill check as outlined by the RAW. It's an ability check. That's what the rules say.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Ring of spell storing.

And you have a reliable source for the spells you put in that, cause all the casters love to cast spells for you.

[Talic]

I also volunteer services as DM for a grapple challenge. 1 class only, core only, no PrC's. 2 Participants, Solo, and Giacomo. Challenge designed around testing grappling abilities.

If it sounds good, select a level, and I'll be ready in an hour.

NOTE: In this grapple challenge, Strict RAW will be followed. As already pointed out by myself and Lord Silvanos, under the strictest interpretation of RAW, flurry of blows does not apply in a grapple.

[Solo]

I also volunteer services as DM for a grapple challenge. 1 class only, core only, no PrC's. 2 Participants, Solo, and Giacomo. Challenge designed around testing grappling abilities.

If it sounds good, select a level, and I'll be ready in an hour.

I voice a preference for level 6. Giacomo's already doing one level 6 playtest. I shouldn't be too hard for him to do another. He even has a build up. (The half orc, i believe)

[Talic]

Also, by RAW, initiative is not an opposed ability check.

An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie.

The lower result in an initiative check does not fail.

[Griffin131]

Yes, it's an optimised fighter in core. Which is all I'm talking about here.

No, it's not. Its a fighter in core. Theres no optimization because optimization implies choice.

OK, so the fighter has no improved grapple (and no longer even competes to outgrapple the monk), because it's no big use to him. This has been my point already for a long, long time.

No, it obviously hasn't. You've made comparisons with the fighter using a Greatsword, which as you know cannot be used in a grapple.

Ring of spell storing.

Okay, so literally 25% of your WBL goes into an item that can help you 1/day. GJ. (the 5 level ring costs 50k, and the lesser one can't store a Divine Power)

No, I'm not. "Beating batman" is simply an alliteration (hope that is the correct word in English) for a flashy title. The guide shows ways to beat batman, but it certainly does not try to show that a batman is a useless character for the group or that he has no chance in PvP vs the joker monk. Only that he is not ultrapowerful and that in core, both monk and wizard are broadly balanced classes.

The joker monk's speciality is to beat batman (or rather: have a good chance doing so), at all levels. Not to outdamage the fighter or outgrapple a grapple-focused cleric of whoever.
Although he certainly is not that far behind in those aspects, either.

Obviously you're confused. I'll allow you to clarify.

Quots have been done already. To death. Let's leave it at that. You can handle it for your campaigns in any way you like.

Quotes have been done by me. You haven't proved a thing.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I don't know what it is, but it is not an opposed skill check as outlined by the RAW. It's an ability check. That's what the rules say.

- Giacomo

Good thing you already quoted the part of the rules that says, "opposed ability or skill check."

-Giamoco

[Emperor Tippy]

And of these books, unfortunately only PHB and DMG are core.
I am among the first to say that some stuff gets broken fast (aka celerity, belts of battle etc.) the moment you move outside core.

First off, core is an artificial distinction which does not exist as far as the rules are concerned.
Second, core contains the most broken stuff in the game as both a percentage and in absolute terms.

SRD: An initiative check is a Dexterity check.
SRD on MoP: This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw.

So, nothing added to your initiative roll. Sorry.

"An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie."

It is an opposed dex check according to both CustServ and game designers who work for WotC who I have talked with.

I volunteer the services of DM. I propose the following rules in effect:

All combatants will be aware of each other.

The arena will have no obstacles, or impediments to LOS, save what participants bring in.

MoP does not apply to initiative (I believe Tippy does not need it).

No, I don't need it. But it does apply RAW and I want it. Yeah, I can get my Initiative bonus higher than his (30 Dex, Improved Initiative, Luckstone gets me +15 to his +9) but I can't guarantee that I win it in core.

All opponents will have exactly 1 round in which any defensive or buff abilities may be activated, prior to the match beginning.

So long as I can have hours/level buffs up before this.

All of these rules are designed to give giacomo the environment he thinks is most fair. This is done to ensure that there can be no argument of foul play or impartiality against him. Is this acceptable?

See above. But I will accept it as you laid it out if I have to.

Also, by RAW, initiative is not an opposed ability check.

The lower result in an initiative check does not fail.

Incorrect. The lower result does fail. The RAW is ambiguous but both CustServe (asked multiple times and never got a different answer) and different game designers have said its opposed.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi,

let's do the grapple challenge for level 6 half-orc monk vs level 6 ? cleric.

On the level 16 combat - I generally agree, although I'd suggest the following:

- no morph stuff (been there, done that)
- no spells or effects available replicating 9th level spells
- no prestige classes on either side. We wish to compare classes, not prestige class combos.
- x5 item cost for one-shot items; a 5th of charges only for charged items
- since it is a "newly created high-level characters" situation, partially charged wand are possible

What do you mean, Talic, by "generally aware" - the opponents will see each other in the buff round? And how far from each other will they be? And can you already move in the buff round? (though not yet attacking your opponent)

- Giacomo

[Emperor Tippy]

On the level 16 combat - I generally agree, although I'd suggest the following:

- no morph stuff (been there, done that)

No. The farthest I will go in weakening myself is core only with no PrC's. If we are banning spells then I'm not doing it. And you do realize that you would loose enlarge person if you did that?

- no spells or effects available replicating 9th level spells

No. If it is a core item I can buy and use it.

- x5 item cost for one-shot items; a 5th of charges only for charged items

No. House rules aren't game or again, find another person to play batman.

- since it is a "newly created high-level characters" situation, partially charged wand are possible

Fine, I don't care what items you do or do not have.

-----
If you want to claim that you can take on batman then you need to actually take on batman, not some artificially limited quasi batman.

[Kurald Galain]

All of these rules are designed to give giacomo the environment he thinks is most fair. This is done to ensure that there can be no argument of foul play or impartiality against him. Is this acceptable?

I'm breaking out the popcorn, and of course a woven basket. I believe these rules to be stacked in favor of SG, but that doesn't really matter since barring outrageous luck, he'll still lose.

[Solo]

I'm breaking out the popcorn, and of course a woven basket. I believe these rules to be stacked in favor of SG, but that doesn't really matter since barring outrageous luck, he'll still lose.

Etiher Talic or I will do a percentage analysys.

"With a grapple mod of +9, you have a X% chance of doing Y"

[Oslecamo]

No. The farthest I will go in weakening myself is core only with no PrC's. If we are banning spells then I'm not doing it. And you do realize that you would loose enlarge person if you did that?

No. If it is a core item I can buy and use it.

No. House rules aren't game or again, find another person to play batman.

Fine, I don't care what items you do or do not have.

-----
If you want to claim that you can take on batman then you need to actually take on batman, not some artificially limited quasi batman.

So, are you saying you don't mind SG spending all his money on candle of invocations and start churning out solars or make an efreeti chain?

Equipment is stronger than classes in 3.X. If it's anything goes, the class itself is irrelevant, and the player who best spends his WBL will win.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm breaking out the popcorn, and of course a woven basket. I believe these rules to be stacked in favor of SG, but that doesn't really matter since barring outrageous luck, he'll still lose.

If I go first and we go with Talic's rules (not Giacomo's extra ones) then I will win in a heart beat. If we use Giacomo's extra rules then I will win unless I suffer some very bad luck.