OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread

[Particle_Man]

What makes Hilgya think she will be safe elsewhere?

Also-what followers does Loki get? It seems like dwarves are divided into "dies heroically" and "did not die heroically".

I guess it depends on whether or not the Loki/Hilgya loophole is really a thing.

[Resileaf]

I'm not sure why you'd feel that avoiding the no-attacking-and-no-spell restriction via shouting requires sighted individuals.

Grey Wolf

Plus Logann remarked that what was needed was for Durkon to be inside the room right now, not waste half a round removing blindness from someone who doesn't need to see right now.

[Caerulea]

I guess it depends on whether or not the Loki/Hilgya loophole is really a thing.

It probably is, given that if it didn't work Loki would likely stop teaching it to his followers. Otherwise he would just be giving souls to Hel.

[Psyren]

Logann clearly has Blind-Fight. Bad move, vampy

As for Hilgya - she may not be high priestess of Loki (that guy's still stuck in the moot) but getting that kind of notice from the CEO of your org can only be good

How chaotic of her

Fixed that for you

[2D8HP]

Wow are those some dead easy faith tenets!

[ellindsey]

Wow are those some dead easy faith tenets!

I have to say, these recent strips are doing a lot to convince me that Loki is the best choice of gods for a dwarf. Sign me up.

[Grey Watcher]

Not casting Remove Blindness strikes me as a tactical mistake. To avoid the no-attack-and-no-spells restriction, you'll probably need as many people shouting as possible.

But Logann isn't going into the Council Chambers. And even if he was, why would being sighted matter in that situation? If anything, outside the chamber, where the fighting is, is where he would need his sight more (the better to see targets and attackers), and he seems to have Blind Fight or something that makes it not even that important there anyway.

[2D8HP]

I hope Durkon’s mom is as good a cook as she is a fighter and source of wisdom!

I'm guessing Dwarven cuisine is based on ale and mushrooms, how bad could it be?

"Ye faced the battle of chewing that down with much honor!"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It probably is, given that if it didn't work Loki would likely stop teaching it to his followers. Otherwise he would just be giving souls to Hel.

We have no evidence that Loki teaches it to his followers. Hilgya seems convinced that she's the first one to know of the loophole.

Grey Wolf

[Particle_Man]

I do feel a little bad for the remaining Hel damned souls of the last century or so that Loki just gave up on arguing for.

And “do whatever is best for you” sounds a lot like “I’ve got mine, Jack” which I think was one of the evil thoughts in the astral plane.

[sihnfahl]

I do feel a little bad for the remaining Hel damned souls of the last century or so that Loki just gave up on arguing for.

Well, he did admit that most of them weren't his - so he had no standing to argue for them.

And if Reality's destroyed, then a few dwarven souls for Loki won't matter - Hel's going to end up with so many in her domain, she'll be Top.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I feel like this is more evidence that Loki is Chaotic Neutral, not Evil.

Not really, the Alignment spectrum actually boils down to two very simple tilt scales that together make a TON of nuance and detail.

Good to Evil cares about your views on the good of others vs the good of yourself. A purely Good person would always help someone else even if it hurts them. A purely Evil person will do whatever it takes to get what THEY want even if it hurts others.

There's no requirement to not care about friends and family, not be able to cooperate if needed. It's just all about self interest. Loki is Evil because his tenet is always do what's best for him. Only he matters. He loves his brother sure, but if it came down to his brother or him dying, bye Thor. He cares about his Priests, so long as their care has benefit to him and doesn't hinder. Etc, etc.

Fixed that for you

No, it's evil. For the above reasons. Law to Chaos only cares about your view on personal freedom vs society.

[ASCIInerd73]

I do feel a little bad for the remaining Hel damned souls of the last century or so that Loki just gave up on arguing for.

I'd imagine, based on the previous strip, that the uncontested souls are won by Loki and get to go to their respective afterlives. We probably just don't see them because there'd probably be too many to draw.

[Resileaf]

I do feel a little bad for the remaining Hel damned souls of the last century or so that Loki just gave up on arguing for.

And “do whatever is best for you” sounds a lot like “I’ve got mine, Jack” which I think was one of the evil thoughts in the astral plane.

Pretty sure that this meant that she gave up on all of them.

[Keltest]

Anyone else find it ironic that its Loki of all people who gave up on the scheme and just flat out told Hel what the plan was?

[gatemansgc]

I've gotta say, Logann is a dwarf after my own heart.

when did you make mod? o.o



sadly exarch made it though the blue barrier anyway without taking any more damage, now durkon can't attack anymore.

i still wonder if the bardic song of freedom is against the blue barrier rules?

[Gift Jeraff]

I feel like this is more evidence that Loki is Chaotic Neutral, not Evil.

He is still responsible for taking advantage of his drunk brother and causing an entire race to be subject to a torturous afterlife if they die a certain way. Even if it was part of a scheme to teach his daughter a lesson or to keep her from becoming too powerful, he knows damn well what kind of Hel he was sending thousands of innocents to.

[Ruck]

I'm not sure why you'd feel that avoiding the no-attacking-and-no-spell restriction via shouting requires sighted individuals.

Grey Wolf

Well, you know how they say people say more with their eyes than their words.

[Grey Watcher]

We have no evidence that Loki teaches it to his followers. Hilgya seems convinced that she's the first one to know of the loophole.

Grey Wolf

I don't see it? Yeah, Loki seems sorely under-represented in Dwarf society, but there's nothing her dialogue that suggests to me that she thinks she's the first to catch on to this. She's explaining it from scratch, not bothering to refer to other people's writings or scriptures or what have you. But if you serve a deity whose portfolio apparently includes iconoclasm and subversion, eschewing an appeal to authority in your argument makes sense.

[Anarion]

Well, that nicely settled Hilgya’s role in this scene. Well done on her part, though a few more flamestrikes would have been nice. Distracting Hel aside, I am curious why we’re getting the glow here of jumping back and forth between the gods and that fight in the dwarves meeting hall. Maybe this is setting up for the gods to react to the vote as it happens?

[Lathund]

Well, at least Hilgya learned to pull out.

[Dion]

It probably is, given that if it didn't work Loki would likely stop teaching it to his followers. Otherwise he would just be giving souls to Hel.

I have to disagree. Loki absolutely would teach his followers a lie if the lie was to his benefit.

And I believe this particular lie is still to his benefit. Having dwarven worship and devotion is worth something, even if he doesn’t always get the souls in the end.

[grandpheonix]

Truer chaotic words have never been spoken. Well done!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't see it? Yeah, Loki seems sorely under-represented in Dwarf society, but there's nothing her dialogue that suggests to me that she thinks she's the first to catch on to this.

The fact that it's on her is what makes me think of it. Maybe it's because she's as self-centered as a spinning top, or maybe because she's a loner, but the way she talks about it, and how it's on her to teach it to other dwarves, rather than talking about "loki priests", suggests to me that this is not something other Loki priests know of. Which suggests to me that Loki doesn't tell this to his priests, or some human Loki priest would have been sent to collect some dwarven souls for Loki over the last few hundred centuries.

Grey Wolf

[diremage]

Not casting Remove Blindness strikes me as a tactical mistake. To avoid the no-attack-and-no-spells restriction, you'll probably need as many people shouting as possible.

Talking is a free action*, and casting the spell takes one round. Since the Proxy is already being summoned, if Durkon spends the one round needed to cast Remove Blindness he's losing one round of being present when the dwarven clan elders talk to Dvorak. So at this point that one round COULD make the difference between "Dwarves decide things without Durkon" versus "Durkon crashes the moot".

Now, Hilgya might be making a tactical mistake. If she had prepared and cast Word of Recall on the daycare, she'd be able to teleport there as soon as the vote was decided and know for a fact whether she needed to plane shift or not. And also have much better odds of NOT needing to plane shift, if she's able to help swing the vote.

On the other hand, it looks like Hilgya hung so far back that she didn't make it into the council chamber at all. So now she's going to find the results of the vote after everyone asks her, "Why'd you bail?"

[D.One]

Google:

Hylgia's loophole

You mean... Hylgia's self-justification
__________Hylgia's little tale to encourage her to do whatever she wants
__________Not confirmed yet
__________Error #GoTo666-L

[Kantaki]

Anyone else find it ironic that its Loki of all people who gave up on the scheme and just flat out told Hel what the plan was?

No. Just cause knows what he's doing doesn't mean she can stop him.
Hel, knowing Loki's tricking her makes it even easier for him to trick Hel.

Plus, this is still Daddy Loki trying to instill a fundamental lesson(s) in his daughter dearest. One(s) that Hel's life might depend on in the long run.

So him telling her might very well be a prelude to another attempt to drive the lesson home.

[D.One]

So him telling her might very well be a prelude to another attempt to drive the lesson home.

Yeah, until now, the lesson seems to have drunk too much and be unable do drive home herself...

[GregTD]

The fact that it's on her is what makes me think of it. Maybe it's because she's as self-centered as a spinning top, or maybe because she's a loner, but the way she talks about it, and how it's on her to teach it to other dwarves, rather than talking about "loki priests", suggests to me that this is not something other Loki priests know of. Which suggests to me that Loki doesn't tell this to his priests, or some human Loki priest would have been sent to collect some dwarven souls for Loki over the last few hundred centuries.

Grey Wolf

Note how she goes from "this should totally work for a Cleric of Loki" to "I'm spreading the word to all Dwarves."

Also, she wants her "ticket punched for Valhalla", not for some other domain.

Then there's her "I like my chances" final line. I think this is something that a not very bright or wise ("Miss-Cleric-Who-Can't-Resist-Domination-Magic") evil schemer came up with all on her own

[Bad Wolf]

I mean, I'm not gonna fault her for wanting her son to not be destroyed by a god-killing abomination if the world goes kaboom, but come on. Now?