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Thread: Guidance in 4e
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2012-01-25, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Guidance in 4e
There seems to be an increase in people getting ready to shift over, and I've seen some really good advice on this site, in some random locations. I thought it might be helpful to collect the bits of advice into one location, and welcome anyone adding anything new. I'll edit in any content that people link to that gives good guidance.
This means that, if you give me a hunk of text, I will use the quote feature to give you credit. However, I may edit it some, most likely to make it fit with the rest of the material. If you dislike the editing I do, or if I removed something you saw as key, please tell me and I'll correct it.
Here is my chart for on the fly building for monsters and skill challenges.
First off, this is a great source for detailed information. I will work to link each of my the overviews here to the class handbook.
Themes Overview:
SpoilerAs there are sooo many themes, I can't even begin to do an overview of them all. However, I've found a pair of good ones here, and here. They both cover a number themes and which ones may be the most helpful. Themes are wonderful. Use them for free bonus mechanics, and a great way to get a good hook for roleplaying.
Defender Overview:
Striker Overview:
Leader Overview:
Spoiler
Controller Overview:
Leveling Guide for numbers:
Hybrid or Multiclass
SpoilerIf this doesn't throw you off, then there are a few things you need to consider about your character. Does the character need to be a hybrid? Do the mechanics of another class do what you want, and just need refluffing? Or can this be solved with a multiclass feat or two, or a theme?
If you really want to use the mechanics of two separate classes, consider the following.
Where are you getting your AC?
What are you holding in your hands?
What exactly do you want your character to do, mechanically?
Is there any synergy between the Primary and Secondary Stats?
Are your NADs covered?
If you can't answer these questions, then you need to stop and go back and try again. Remember that hybrids get the worst of the combined armor proficiencies. Stats are easy to see, but consider how important certain classes' riders are. Does one class want a weapon in each hand, a single big one, some kind of implement or two? Weapliments are a hybrid's friend.
If you don't have a clear guide in mind, then the sheer number of options available to you will be overwhelming. You will have to choose between two entire classes worth of options, and if you don't actually know how they work, then maybe it isn't time to make a hybrid yet. Play at least one of the classes straight, and once you have a good handle on the game, have your current character get drunk and stay at the tavern, and introduce your new hybrid.
Here is a chart of hybrids that have potential.
Guide of Gishes
SpoilerI'm defining a Gish as someone proficient with a melee weapon, implement, heavy armor, and is able to fight either at range casting or in a melee hacking. I am including a few that can act as melee casters but do not wear heavy armor, because they often have the right feel. This will be expanded greatly, hopefully including links to sample builds.
Pure classes: Hexblade, Bard
Refluffed classes: Paladin, Cleric
Multiclass: Fighter/Wizard, Warlord/Warlock
Hybrid: Paladin|Warlock, Paladin|Sorcercer, Fighter|Cleric, Warlord|Sorcerer
Honorable mention: Swordmage, Bladesinger, Avenger, Swordmage|WarlockLast edited by Tegu8788; 2017-04-25 at 12:19 PM.
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2012-01-25, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
Please note that I updated the figures... I forgot to factor in the first level.
Also note that the Battle Cleric build of the Cleric, thanks to the Battle Cleric Lore feature in Dragon #400, trades Healer's Lore for fantastic AC (+2 always-active shield bonus and scale armor proficiency) and free attack bonuses to allies that they heal. As a Battle Cleric, it drops your healing power a bit, but lets you hand out bonuses more frequently.
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2012-01-25, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
So noted. I'm also looking to add a section on the dos and don'ts of making a 4E Gish, but I'm going to have to write all of that myself I believe. My hope is, by making the guides I will get a better understanding of the mechanics, new players will have an easier place to find things that are a bit more extensive then the RAW thread allows, and help new players find you more experienced lot, and feel less pressure about asking for help then a PM.
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2012-01-26, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-01-26, 01:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
Sloth the Worst Rogue Ever and his pal the Gelatinous Cube Avatar by Sorcerer Blob
Games I Play: D&D 4e, 3.X D&D/Pathfinder, Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, D&D Next Playtest, Star Wars RPG (d20, SE, EotE,) Burning Wheel, Mouse Guard, AFMBE, and many more! Basically if it looks fun, I'm game!
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2012-01-26, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
I disagree with the overall conclusion on the Defenders. Fighters aren't the best. The Defender role is probably the most well-balanced. Which one is the best? Well, all of the pre-essentials ones are fairly equal. It becomes dependent on the rest of your party as to which one is the best. The Battlemind, Paladin and Warden are all the equal to the Fighter, just in different ways. Heck, even the Shielding Swordmage is close. The Fighter has the most support but even with that, I wouldn't call it any better than the others.
In the striker section, you mention genasi wizards very briefly. I would make a separate category for Wizards. There is also the Tiefling fire blaster which can do striker-level damage.
In the leader section, I mostly agree with what was said. I don't think Bards are weak leaders, though. Just the opposite: using Cha instead of 1d6 is a bonus in their favor, +Cha in temp hps is nice, and they have a level 6 utility which lets someone spend a healing surge to heal AND get their healing surge in temporary hit points. Considering how highly regarded Virtue is for pallies (spend a healing surge to get your surge value in temp hps), this thing is amazing. With just that one encounter power utility, they become very solid healers. Also, I was saddened to see that the Runepriest didn't get as much love as I had hoped. While they don't have as many powers to choose from, each power is extremely versatile.
Invokers have the great encounter powers while Wizards have the great dailies. That's really what it boils down to between those two. This section was spot-on and I have no disagreements with anything.Thank you Ceika for the wonderful Avatar avatar!
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2012-01-26, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
tcrudisi, if you want love for the rune priest, give me a little description and I'll gladly throw it in there. As for the defenders and Tiefling fire blaster, I'll add that to the commentary.
Mando Knight and Sorcerer Bob, those three are certainly on my list as "pure class" gishes, but I'm also looking to have some multiclass and hybrids listed, to help give some advice for how, and when to make a hybrid, when to multiclass, and when to just refluff things.
The other thing, that is a challenge larger than myself that I want to try and throw in is a summary of themes. There are just so many.
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2012-01-26, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
I can see a discussion on when to Hybrid, if ever, being very helpful to a new player. Hybrids, as much as I love them though, can be something of a nasty trap to new players as well, so again, I think this could be very helpful.
As far as theme summary goes... You are right, that's one heck of a challenge. You might just be wise to link to the theme handbooks on the WotC site. If the work has already been done, no sense in doing more!
Edit: A basic theme summary (as of Nov 2011) can be found here, as well as a nice backgrounds summary, if that interests you.
Heck, this entire thread has links to just about everything you need to know. Defender theory, Races, etc.Last edited by Sorcerer Blob; 2012-01-26 at 11:02 AM.
Sloth the Worst Rogue Ever and his pal the Gelatinous Cube Avatar by Sorcerer Blob
Games I Play: D&D 4e, 3.X D&D/Pathfinder, Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, D&D Next Playtest, Star Wars RPG (d20, SE, EotE,) Burning Wheel, Mouse Guard, AFMBE, and many more! Basically if it looks fun, I'm game!
Legend4ry D&D: Bringing Old School to 4th Edition
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2012-01-26, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
Absolutely! I'm about to walk out the door but I'll try to get around to doing this tomorrow.
For hybrids, I'm a fan of saying something to this effect:
Hybrid: If you are new to 4e, creating a hybrid character is the last thing you want to do. Accept that this is here only for more advanced players and even they often screw it up. Simply put, save yourself the headache and just pretend that this option does not exist until you have played 4th edition for at least a few months.
For more advanced players, ask yourself these questions: Why do I need to hybrid? Can multiclassing accomplish my objectives? If so, that is almost always the best bet. If not, make sure that what you are getting from being a hybrid character is equal to or greater than what you are giving up (this is usually not the case).
(There are some basic rules to hybriding, a lot of which is covered in the miscibility table on the 4e forums.)Thank you Ceika for the wonderful Avatar avatar!
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2012-01-26, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
This, a thousand times over. One of the great things about 4e is that while there are certainly more powerful builds, it's hard to really gimp yourself if you make decisions that make any sense whatsoever. A novice thrown at the system, making decisions that "make sense," will likely create a character that can contribute reasonably well.
Hybrids are the exception to that rule. The only advice on hybrids in a guide for new players for 4e should be "don't."
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2012-01-27, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
I agree, there needs to be heavy warnings about hybrids, and I don't intend it to be a "hey everyone, make hybrids!" I love the idea behind hybrids, it makes me feel like I've really got a unique character, but also a way to say, "You want to hybrid barbarian|beastmaster ranger because you want to play a primal warrior with an animal companion? Try a Barbarian with a Fey Beast Tamer theme or Shaman MC and refluff." Hybrids may look like the only way to get a concept done, but there are many other ways that are easier. I intend to be honest with the hybrid guide, that it's much more complicated, the only way to really screw up. But if the concept is valid, I want to help find a way to get it done, be it through themes, multiclassing, or even hybriding. Being high op isn't my goal, but playable without DM handicapping is.
If we say, no new players can hybrid, then they will make hybrids without asking for advise, and are likely to make mistakes and make the poor hybrids we all fear. But with some guidance, they will either realize they don't need to hybrid, or learn how to make a good one, and thus learn a lot more about 4E mechanics quickly.
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2012-01-27, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
Rune Priests - Rune Priests are complex in an entirely different way than all the other classes in the game. While they have seen basically no support since their release in the PHB3, the few powers they have are perhaps the most versatile in the entire game. Each power offers multiple choices in how they operate. Each power also changes which Rune State you go into, meaning that each decision is more complex than other classes. Rune Priests excel in buffing (maybe being the best though artificers are great too), especially for multiple bonuses of different types at once. Their buffs also work for themselves, a unique trait among leaders. It would behoove anybody playing one to make cards with the bonuses on them to remind your party all the stuff they are getting.
Thank you Ceika for the wonderful Avatar avatar!
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2012-01-28, 12:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
Thank you very much. I'm also editing in the very beginning of my Gish guide now.
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2012-01-28, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
Even if they wear cloth, Avengers are pretty gishy. Between their Armor of Faith feature, being usually dual-primaried in an AC stat, and the Unarmored Agility feat, their AC can easily approach defender levels. They like big weapons, but do have a large (if usually ignored) array of implement powers, and a huge number of their powers offer strong control riders.
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2012-01-28, 01:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
But how do they handle at range? If someone has a better definition of a Gish I'd be happy to alter mine and reevaluate where things fall.
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2012-01-28, 02:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
At range 5-10, they play like a single target invoker. 90% of Avenger players will ignore the implement powers and happily take only the weapon ones, but the implement ones aren't all bad. They do not (generally, though a great deal of them explicitly break this rule) get double rolls on your oath target, and they (generally) do inferior damage to same-level weapon attacks (assuming you're using a superior weapon), which is two severe downsides as striker power choices. But they do exist, and can provide strong single target control effects (including dominate).
Last edited by Sol; 2012-01-28 at 02:24 AM.
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2012-01-28, 04:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
Hey Tegu, would you care to edit my section on the Rune Priest? When writing it, I attempted to include the best points the MeeposFire made while adding in new material. As it is now, I repeated some things that he initially said. Simply deleting those couple of sentences should suffice. Thanks!
Thank you Ceika for the wonderful Avatar avatar!
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2012-01-28, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Guidance in 4e
Thank you both, I did my last edit on my phone, so it was just a matter of pasting it in. Also, thanks for the Avenger info, when I expand them more, hopefully with some details like the pure classes have, I'll certainly include that.