OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

[Liquor Box]

It's a bit of a nitpick, but the idea she could be a "fleeing" character rather than, say, a "retreating to a corner" character doesn't seem to have dawned on V.

Sure, V was maybe unduly nonchalant about the maneuver, but that's the sort of thing I mean "not realizing control has slipped away from you".

V might have thought she was just retreating to a corner until the panel where the beholder made the hole, even though Hayley had said a few panel earlier that she may have an escape route.

But V spent another panel wandering and talking after the hole was opened. Hayley and Belkar were concerned enough at that point to be running.

[danielxcutter]

I think it’s been established long ago that V isn’t as tactically savvy as say Haley or Roy.

[Emanick]

High Int, low Wis characters like V are described by the DMG (or possibly the Player's Handbook, I can't remember) as being comparable to absent-minded professors - good at applied problem-solving but poor at situational awareness.

This seems like a good example of poor situational awareness, so I think that's what's going on here.

[danielxcutter]

Hey, didn't Blackwing suggest swinging Roy around to hit things with his sword, and then V said that would be inefficient and throwing him once before casting other spells before Haley reminded them they have clerics now they can fix that? I think that's a very good example at showing that V still isn't exactly a tactical genius.

[littlebum2002]

Hey, didn't Blackwing suggest swinging Roy around to hit things with his sword, and then V said that would be inefficient and throwing him once before casting other spells before Haley reminded them they have clerics now they can fix that? I think that's a very good example at showing that V still isn't exactly a tactical genius.

Yeah, but they made the same joke when they got V back

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html

I think it's just Rich's way of joking about how OP magic is in this setting.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, but they made the same joke when they got V back

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html

I think it's just Rich's way of joking about how OP magic is in this setting.

No I mean the “actually taking the ‘hit someone with the paralyzed fighter’ idea seriously” part.

[Psyren]

It's a bit of a nitpick, but the idea she could be a "fleeing" character rather than, say, a "retreating to a corner" character doesn't seem to have dawned on V.

Sure, V was maybe unduly nonchalant about the maneuver, but that's the sort of thing I mean "not realizing control has slipped away from you".

Fair enough.

Yeah, but they made the same joke when they got V back

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html

I think it's just Rich's way of joking about how OP magic is in this setting.

He's joked about it in other ways too

[Ionathus]

No reason it can't be both. V is only recently learning how to not "wield [magic] like a cudgel," after all, and one of Haley's biggest informed (& demonstrated!) traits is savviness and being able to get a good read on people and the situation in general.

On a side note, especially in 5e, I think we'd all have saved ourselves a lot of headache if Wisdom was called, like, Awareness or Intuition instead. That would do a much better job of explaining why animals have bonuses to it, and I think it even fits in with most of the Wisdom-save effects, which are geared to mess with your head and could be overthrown by recognizing that something's "not right." Slightly harder to justify druids and especially clerics using it as a main stat, but you could describe it as their connection/awareness of the world around them.

Mostly, I just don't really like the idea of your decision-making ability being tied to an in-game stat, because it feels like metagaming to come up with a "less" or "more" clever solution than your character "should" be capable of. I much more like the idea of your Wisdom being your awareness, your Intelligence being the knowledge available to you, and your choices being what you do with those two sets of input.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, I know a game - which I will not mention properly as it is incredibly NSFW, though it’s unironically good outside of that too - has three mental stats; Willpower, Cunning, and Presence, which I recall one of the devs saying that none of them directly translate to intelligence or anything like that.

[Skull the Troll]

No reason it can't be both. V is only recently learning how to not "wield [magic] like a cudgel," after all, and one of Haley's biggest informed (& demonstrated!) traits is savviness and being able to get a good read on people and the situation in general.

On a side note, especially in 5e, I think we'd all have saved ourselves a lot of headache if Wisdom was called, like, Awareness or Intuition instead. That would do a much better job of explaining why animals have bonuses to it, and I think it even fits in with most of the Wisdom-save effects, which are geared to mess with your head and could be overthrown by recognizing that something's "not right." Slightly harder to justify druids and especially clerics using it as a main stat, but you could describe it as their connection/awareness of the world around them.

Mostly, I just don't really like the idea of your decision-making ability being tied to an in-game stat, because it feels like metagaming to come up with a "less" or "more" clever solution than your character "should" be capable of. I much more like the idea of your Wisdom being your awareness, your Intelligence being the knowledge available to you, and your choices being what you do with those two sets of input.

I had a DM once that remarked that all characters have two sets of stats, the character's, and the players. The most common version when this get illustrated is when someone is making a charisma or int check to influence someone's behavior or to solve a problem/puzzle. Many DM's will allow the person to just roll against the stat rather than come up with what they would say or try because the players stat is generally not 18. I'm not trying to run down players here, its just illustrative that the characters we play are sometimes DaVinci's and Ghandi's, and they rest of us just aren't.

[Ionathus]

I had a DM once that remarked that all characters have two sets of stats, the character's, and the players. The most common version when this get illustrated is when someone is making a charisma or int check to influence someone's behavior or to solve a problem/puzzle. Many DM's will allow the person to just roll against the stat rather than come up with what they would say or try because the players stat is generally not 18. I'm not trying to run down players here, its just illustrative that the characters we play are sometimes DaVinci's and Ghandi's, and they rest of us just aren't.

Big thing for me, too. Some of my players are experienced stage actors, others don't act at all. I would never want to create a dynamic at the table where the players feel like they're being judged for their own "Charisma score" instead of their PCs'. In much the same way, Wisdom and Intelligence are also in danger of being conflated in a way that the physical stats aren't.

[danielxcutter]

Roleplaying someone who is smarter, wiser, or more charismatic is really hard, that's true.

[Peelee]

Roleplaying someone who is smarter, wiser, or more charismatic is really hard, that's true.

Nah, it's super easy.

Player: "Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it."
DM: "Why would you think that?"
Player: "Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors."
Dm: *weeps into his arms*

[danielxcutter]

I mean like actual character-to-character interaction stuff.

[Skull the Troll]

Nah, it's super easy.

Player: "Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it."
DM: "Why would you think that?"
Player: "Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors."
Dm: *weeps into his arms*

I am completely stealing this in my next session. Well done :)

[danielxcutter]

I don't think that actually works RAW, sadly.

[Fyraltari]

Roleplaying someone who is smarter, wiser, or more charismatic is really hard, that's true.

Nah, it's super easy.

Player: "Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it."
DM: "Why would you think that?"
Player: "Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors."
Dm: *weeps into his arms*

Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

[danielxcutter]

Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

This. I don't like this.

[Psyren]

Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

Winner

Roleplaying someone who is smarter, wiser, or more charismatic is really hard, that's true.

Well there are two types of roleplaying generally (both described in the 5e PHB) - Active and Descriptive. Active roleplaying a character who is smarter, wiser and/or more charismatic than you is indeed difficult, because you're putting yourself in that character's shoes and delivering not just what they'd say but also how they'd say it - but for Descriptive you can fairly easily get something closer to what Peelee described. (Personally though I would phrase that more as a question - "Does Bob's knowledge of dungeoneering suggest any effective ways to get the vault open? Maybe a sharp twist of some kind?")

[Peelee]

Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

I think I'm funny. I know you are. That was brilliant.

[Fyraltari]

Winner

I think I'm funny. I know you are. That was brilliant.

I like to think I have my moments.

[Doug Lampert]

Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

I'm just going to +1 all the compliments this is getting.

[danielxcutter]

I like to think I have my moments.

I think you confirmed a crit with that Dashing Swordsman attack in my case.

[Emanick]

Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

I'd like to sig this if it's okay with you.

[Fyraltari]

I'd like to sig this if it's okay with you.

My pleasure.

[Ruck]

Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

Hee hee hee.

[KorvinStarmast]

Nah, it's super easy.

Player: "Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it."
DM: "Why would you think that?"
Player: "Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors."
Dm: *weeps into his arms*

Alternate ending to this story:

Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
DM: Bob takes (rolls 1d4) damage to his hand. He now had disadvantage (or a -5, pick an edition) on Dexterity checks until he heals that sprain - self inflicted wound.
Player: Wait, I have mad skillz! (Waves char sheet at the DM, pointing at high wis and high INT and points in dungeoneering)
DM: you sure know a lot about vault doors, but you know about jack splat about this door.

A few minutes later, the barbarian reaches up turns the handle the other way - and opens the door.

Hilarity ensues at the table.

[danielxcutter]

Thaaaaaat honestly kinda sounds like a jerk move on the DM's part.

[bunsen_h]

Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

Nice! Though to me it also evokes the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise.

[Wintermoot]

Thaaaaaat honestly kinda sounds like a jerk move on the DM's part.

Kind of seems like both DM and player are being jerks.

Regardless, I don't really see either interaction actually happening in a 3.P game. In my experience, it's more like

DM: "You see a massive locked vault door before you."

Player1: "Hmmm. I have high Int and Wis and lots of ranks in Dungeoneering. Can I use that to try and figure out something about this door?"

DM: "Well usually it would be a disable device check... does anybody have that?"

Players: *silence* *no eye contact*

Player2: "I'm just going to grab the knob and use my strength to twist it open."

DM: "Okay make a str check"

Player2: "21"

DM: "You grab the knob and twist with all your strength. It seizes in your grasp and does 5 damage to you and gives you a -2 to dexterity until you next heal."

Player1: "Can I try dungeoneering now"


DM: "Okay, well go ahead and make your roll. Add a synchronicity bonus if you have five ranks in Knowledge Architecture and Engineering"

Player1: "36"

DM: "Okay. After a few minutes of study you figure out that its a trick knob. If you turn it the way its meant to turn, you seize up the lock and trigger the trap that damages you. But if you pull out and turn the opposite way, it unlocks"