Vampire question settled?

[Peelee]

Well, Word of God has spoken...I'm a little disappointed that this *is* how vampirisation works in the Stickverse, but there's little point arguing along those lines because it works how it works and it won't change now.

May I ask why?

[Keltest]

May I ask why?

because Rich said so. Literally.

[Kish]

So it is as I always feared, instead of Malack's "rise from humble origins to unholy undead power" it was "died as a commoner, evil spirit got the body".
Damn.

I'm still blinking at how much you claim to know about the lizardfolk shaman who was taken over by Malack. All we know about him is based on a line which you didn't even remember when you started arguing the case, and which tells us as much about who and what he really was like as if the High Priest of Hel, in two hundred years, said, "I had a different name when I was alive, two hundred years ago. I was an idiot who thought trees were dangerous." Commoner? Humble origins? What?

[Koo Rehtorb]

Shocking. Who could possibly have foreseen this?

[Peelee]

because Rich said so. Literally.

The Giant speaking seems like little reason to be disappointed. Or were you talking about something else? Because I was asking why the disappointment.

[SavageWombat]

"I had a different name when I was alive, two hundreds years ago. I was an idiot who thought trees were dangerous."

I'm sorry; you think that fully-merged Durkon isn't going to be terrified of enormous multi-limbed creatures that can destroy his undead form with one good called shot to the heart?

[Kish]

I think fully-merged Durkon is not going to be anything because the High Priest of Hel isn't that long for the world, but hypothetically speaking, I'm reasonably sure Hel would explain to her mysteriously human-accented high priest, should he pick up anything from Durkon's mind that confused him, that trees are inanimate plants and Thor is a buffoon.

Religious fanaticism seems very much to be all that Durkon and the High Priest have in common.

[Shale]

He'd be justifiably wary of ents, but anybody should be wary of ents.

[jere7my]

Oh, for the love of... Did all that talk about "vampires" and "parasite" completely go over your head?

This thread has become pleasantly moot, but I do want to say that you might want to read the whole thread before going for the insult next time. This very misinterpetation of my post was addressed in the next few replies. Makes for some irony in this statement:

And yet again, you keep saying that things you don't remember or didn't notice doesn't exist.

[Loreweaver15]

Well, as disappointed as I am, we have our answer. Oh well. Thanks for clearing it up, Rich!

[Morty]

I am utterly mystified as to why that's somehow disappointing. Evil spirits hijacking bodies is a perfectly valid take on vampirism. And it was laid out pretty clearly when Hel spoke to the dark spirit riding Durkons' body.

[Gwynfrid]

Well, as disappointed as I am, we have our answer. Oh well. Thanks for clearing it up, Rich!

Thank you for explaining that Giant. Now if youll excuse me, im going to go pout in the corner until the next comic.

Well, Word of God has spoken...I'm a little disappointed that this *is* how vampirisation works in the Stickverse, but there's little point arguing along those lines because it works how it works and it won't change now.

I guess if I read the entire 200+ posts I might understand... Why so many sad faces?

[Loreweaver15]

I'm sure the Giant will tell us a fantastic story, I just personally don't enjoy the Buffyverse take on vampires.

[Kish]

I don't really understand why anyone is disappointed now (except Falbrogna, who appears to have an extensive Malack headcanon). "This is the case for the only vampire who will ever be a major character in OotS and quite possibly the only vampire who will be in the remainder of OotS" was established last month; why would it be better if he was some kind of anomaly?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I guess if I read the entire 200+ posts I might understand... Why so many sad faces?

I think a lot of people don't like what this means for Malack and his character. In other words, many see the OOTS vampire as robbing Malack of any character development or meaning. I don't personally see this to be true.

[Kish]

Multiple people are really that invested in a monstrously evil, dead character from the previous book?

Well, I don't really get why anyone would want anything positive to happen to any of the Vector Legion, so I should be used to being confused by now.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Multiple people are really that invested in a monstrously evil, dead character from the previous book?

Well, I don't really get why anyone would want anything positive to happen to any of the Vector Legion, so I should be used to being confused by now.

I don't think they care about positive things happening to him, more like seeing him be a more complex character. Someone who actually supports that perspective could explain it better, I'm sure.

[Loreweaver15]

I think a lot of people don't like what this means for Malack and his character. In other words, many see the OOTS vampire as robbing Malack of any character development or meaning. I don't personally see this to be true.

You also thought "vampire being mind controlled" was a different kind of vampire, so...:P

It mostly just means that Malack was nothing more than a custom-made EEEEEEEEEEEEVIL CREATURE who didn't become evil so much as never really make an independent choice in his entire undeath. That takes away some of the impact from the character; it means that he really WAS nothing more than a minion following orders, rather than an independent being who became monstrous through his own choices.

Those tend to feel more monstrous to me. Still, it's Rich's story and Rich's characters, and that I wouldn't have written it that way means less than nothing.

[zimmerwald1915]

You also thought "vampire being mind controlled" was a different kind of vampire, so...:P

It mostly just means that Malack was nothing more than a custom-made EEEEEEEEEEEEVIL CREATURE who didn't become evil so much as never really make an independent choice in his entire undeath. That takes away some of the impact from the character; it means that he really WAS nothing more than a minion following orders, rather than an independent being who became monstrous through his own choices.

Those tend to feel more monstrous to me. Still, it's Rich's story and Rich's characters, and that I wouldn't have written it that way means less than nothing.

Malack's vampire-spirit was an autonomous individual with free will for two hundred years. How it came into being has nothing to do with how it spent that time. It made certain choices impacted by its personality, its position in society (which includes its relationship with its host), and the relationship between those things, and within the confines of that relationship, could have taken other paths.

[Morty]

As I see it, an evil spirit hijacking the body of the victim is the only way to make the vampires' alignment as it is written make sense. If the victim is just their old self, only with the vampire template added, there's no reason why they should be always evil, even taking into account that D&D's definition of "always [alignment]" allows for exceptions. But if the vampire is actually an evil spirit who took over the body, it makes as much sense as any part of the alignment does.

[Peelee]

As I see it, an evil spirit hijacking the body of the victim is the only way to make the vampires' alignment as it is written make sense. If the victim is just their old self, only with the vampire template added, there's no reason why they should be always evil, even taking into account that D&D's definition of "always [alignment]" allows for exceptions. But if the vampire is actually an evil spirit who took over the body, it makes as much sense as any part of the alignment does.

Until the Giant's comment, I just assumed that the shown Durkon-style evil takeover was the standard, except in the case of an already-evil character, in which case the original soul would remain the driver. Not a huge departure to the "nope, they're all a hostile takeover," so it's not a huge deal to me. Which is why I'm trying to understand why other people are disappointed by such a revelation.

Also I never saw Buffy, and have no desire to do so, so there's also the whole "I don't care about Buffyverse thanks to ignorance about said Buffyverse." So, ya know, I have that going for me.

[NerdyKris]

I'm sure the Giant will tell us a fantastic story, I just personally don't enjoy the Buffyverse take on vampires.

So what? I'm not being sarcastic, I just mean, who cares what the take on vampires is, specifically? It's a vampire, that's all that needs to be known. This story isn't about vampires. It happens to have a creature in it that sucks blood and is evil, but suddenly not liking the character because of an extremely minor facet of it's background seems like you're focusing on the wrong thing.

The conflict isn't about "Durkon the vampire". It's about "Durkon is currently being impersonated by an undead creature". What that spirit is has very little to do with the situation at hand. He could easily have been an entirely new creature called a Bodythief and the driving conflict would be the same so far.

People who are fans of vampire fiction seem to have invested in and read a lot into the characters, but in reality, Malack and the High Priest of Hel could have been ANY free willed undead, including an original creation, and we'd have the same story. (Well, Nale might have had to kill him some other way, but that's beside the point)

The driving point of this strip is that being creature X doesn't tell you everything about a character. The fact that two characters are called vampires doesn't tell you anything about them. Just like saying Xykon is a Lich doesn't tell you anything about Xykon.

[Gift Jeraff]

If anything, I see Malack being a Negative Energy spirit opening up interesting possibilities for Durkula: Malack had a personality beyond "evil spirit that wants to do vampire things," and he had no reason to be impersonating the living shaman. So this means that Dwarfula might start to develop his own personality (both from absorbing Durkon's memories and from his own experiences), rather than just be a generic evil obstacle.

In fact, this might even be Durkon's plan--feed Nega-Durkon so many memories such that he quickly develops his own personality and becomes something more than Hel's pawn.

Malack's vampire-spirit was an autonomous individual with free will for two hundred years.

While I agree with this post's overall point, Malack could have been a thrall for a significant chunk of his unlife.

[Ionathus]

There is absolutely zero difference...

My favorite part about this is that it is quite clear that Rich has been waiting so very, very long to explain it all. The forum discussions must have been excruciating for all these months.

Bravo for enduring this, Giant. I can't imagine sitting through each "plot twist" like this; every period between set-up and prestige where you have to tread ever-so-lightly. Well-navigated.

[Porthos]

Score one for Team Metaphorical!

OK, maybe that was a bit glib, but considering that I've been arguing for a very long time that Malack's words needed to be viewed in a metaphorical context, I view this as more than a bit of vindication.

====

As for the comments about Malack, I don't see how this changes a thing about him. We only ever saw him post-Vampirization. We don't have the slightest bit of a clue what he was like pre-Vampirization. The revelation that the Malack That Is was a evil spirit that hijacked a long forgotten shaman's body matters little, I would think.

Not a single thing we knew about Malack the character changed with this revelation. He is just as three dimensional and as full of nuance as he was before. The ONLY thing that is different is we find out that the driver of the agency of Malack wasn't what some people thought. But, that really shouldn't change much, should it? Not unless you had built up an elaborate history of a character we never saw for one frame of the comic (whomever that shaman was).

The things that made one like Malack (if one did like him) shouldn't have changed, I would think.

The evil spirit that hijacked the shaman's body was the one that felt conflicted over what to do with Durkon.
The evil spirit that hijacked the shaman's body was the one that decided to not fight Team OotS as hard as he could.
The evil spirit that hijacked the shaman's body was the one that decided to spare Belkar's life.
The evil spirit that hijacked the shaman's body was the one that had tea with Durkon and, whatever else one might say, did seem to appreciate the company.

None of that has changed.

On the flip,

The evil spirit that hijacked the shaman's body was the one that wanted to vamp Belkar and only started to get finicky when Durkon showed up.
The evil spirit that hijacked the shaman's body was the one that wanted to enslave the Western Continent into a whole All You Can Eat Buffet.
The evil spirit that hijacked the shaman's body was the one that didn't try very hard to find a compromise that Durkon could accept when their goals came into conflict.
The evil spirit that hijacked the shaman's body was the one that was bestest buddies with Tarquin.

So the character of Malack hasn't changed, IMO.

The only thing this revelation really does is confirm that Malack's musings about 'wanting a colleague', were in fact metaphorical. And, perhaps, self-deluding. But I've felt that gave even more depth to Malack, not less. One could easily look at it as Malack rationalizing his own behavior. He knows on some level that this isn't what Durkon would want, and so, again on some level, he feels a bit guilty about it.

But instead of trying to examine his guilt (however rudimentary it might be) or prevent the process of vampirization (there are ways to do that), he goes ahead and talks himself into to why this is a good idea after all. Something that he truly wanted. It makes him MORE complex, not less. It adds a layer of emotional depth that wouldn't be there for a Stereotypical Mustache Twirling Villain. I suppose one could say that Malack shouldn't be in denial about such things. But, again, that's one of the points about being metaphorical. It allows room for a LOT of nuance and possibility.

So I guess if one is disappointed that Malack was in denial about Durkon being the same pre- and post-vampirization, I can understand that. But, then again, actually viewing what Malack said shows, IMO, that Malack was upfront with the idea that Durkon would be different post-vamping (Durkon That Was and all that). Perhaps Malack felt that whatever would come down the pike, he could be friends with. Perhaps he was in denial. Or, perhaps, he was in a Bad Place mentally, after killing what could be considered a friend, and he was just babbling at that point.

....

Or perhaps he was just a lying snake that lies and psychoanalyzing him isn't worth the trouble (*waves at Kish* ).

Who knows? What I am saying, however, is that if you liked Malack before, he's still the same character. About the only thing that is really different, IMO, is how we look at what he said over Durkon's cooling, inert, lifeless body.

[Kish]

Well, what did he expect from Vampire Durkon, from either the disproven "he thought the vampire would be actually Durkon" perspective or the ascendant "he knew the vampire would be a new evil spirit like himself" perspective?

A cleric of comparable eminence to his own, with enough Wisdom to discuss philosophy. Check.
A worshiper of Thor, who would want to hit him in the face with a hammer some more. No check.
A worshiper of Hel, with whom he could compare respective death-god dogmas and get information he would likely have considered more interesting than, "No one worships her, bleh." Check.
Someone who would continue to consider the Order's enemies his enemies, including Malack. No check.
Someone who would be at best indifferent to the loyalties that caused Durkon to oppose Malack. Check.

Why would anyone think he'd want Checkboxes 2 and 4 instead of 3 and 5?

[Throknor]

Well, what did he expect from Vampire Durkon, from either the disproven "he thought the vampire would be actually Durkon" perspective or the ascendant "he knew the vampire would be a new evil spirit like himself" perspective?

A cleric of comparable eminence to his own, with enough Wisdom to discuss philosophy. Check.
A worshiper of Thor, who would want to hit him in the face with a hammer some more. No check.
A worshiper of Hel, with whom he could compare respective death-god dogmas and get information he would likely have considered more interesting than, "No one worships her, bleh." Check.
Someone who would continue to consider the Order's enemies his enemies, including Malack. No check.
Someone who would be at best indifferent to the loyalties that caused Durkon to oppose Malack. Check.

Why would anyone think he'd want Checkboxes 2 and 4 instead of 3 and 5?

It's also possible* that he expected the creation to be a spawn of Nergel(sp?) and not Hel. As such it would be a colleague on another level. Since he considered the ones that Nale killed as children he raised it is possible he knew full well nothing would be truly left of Durkon as an individual other than a trained echo.

* I say possible; I'm not judging it's likeliness. But if he was spawned by someone worshiping Nergel and his spawns were from Nergel it isn't unreasonable to deduce that any spawns of his would also be provided by Nergel regardless of the source body. He might have been in for quite a shock when he released D. from being a thrall and Hel's influence took over for the newly free-willed vampire.

[Kish]

Either way, it seems real unlikely that he ever thought his new "brother" would worship Thor--which means he fully expected a radical personality change.

[factotum]

I'm disappointed because I think the *other* type of vampire--e.g. the one where Durkon is in control, but is forced by the vampirism into evil acts that twist his personality--is more interesting than the Buffy-type "Oh, a demon took over". Admittedly, I've had that disappointment ever since the end of book 5, when we learned an evil spirit was piloting Durkon, but the Giant's earlier statement categorically means we will never see a vampire of the other type in OotS, so it reinforces the disappointment somewhat.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Malack's vampire-spirit was an autonomous individual with free will for two hundred years. How it came into being has nothing to do with how it spent that time. It made certain choices impacted by its personality, its position in society (which includes its relationship with its host), and the relationship between those things, and within the confines of that relationship, could have taken other paths.

Yes, this is how I feel as well. Everything that we saw Malack do was done by that spirit, who as far as we know had his own free will. Everything that we saw done by Malack was still done by Malack, and he had free will the for most of the time.