What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[Squire Doodad]

Miko never actually killed Shojo. It was just a conspiracy by the Order to make it look like she did.

..my apologies.

[Squire Doodad]

No, they actively worship Rat as a supreme being and ostensible font of spiritual guidance, which is significantly worse. Forgive me if simply declaring 'dem's da rules' strikes me as deeply inadequate. The rules are nonsensical- that's my whole point.

Presumably no paladins are intentionally getting their holy smiting skills from Rat. He may be the one up at bat who does so, but he himself is not the one who the paladins seek guidance from for their daily life, if only because he is Evil. They might particularly worship a certain member of the Twelve, but they almost definitely do not do so to the Evil members.

Do take care to distinguish the clergy from the paladins. There can be Evil Clerics, Evil Paladins have a different name altogether.

[Lacuna Caster]

Presumably no paladins are intentionally getting their holy smiting skills from Rat. He may be the one up at bat who does so, but he himself is not the one who the paladins seek guidance from for their daily life, if only because he is Evil. They might particularly worship a certain member of the Twelve, but they almost definitely do not do so to the Evil members.

Do take care to distinguish the clergy from the paladins. There can be Evil Clerics, Evil Paladins have a different name altogether.

Okay, if it turns out to be the case that azurite paladins in fact only worship a certain non-evil subset of the southern Gods, that I could understand. I don't think it's terribly congruent with the text, given, e.g, occasions where Miko expressly invokes the protection of the twelve, and no real indication that specific members are reviled or excepted, but I'll grant it could be done.

What I'd be more willing to believe is that there are underground cults devoted to Rat or other evil members of the pantheon, but they are (A) closely guarded secrets, and (B) do not derive power or approval from the Twelve as a whole, even if their members think otherwise. Rat's general alignment would also have to be kept secret. But even then I'm not sure how sustainable this would be.

[Keltest]

Okay, if it turns out to be the case that azurite paladins in fact only worship a certain non-evil subset of the southern Gods, that I could understand. I don't think it's terribly congruent with the text, given, e.g, occasions where Miko expressly invokes the protection of the twelve, and no real indication that specific members are reviled or excepted, but I'll grant it could be done.

What I'd be more willing to believe is that there are underground cults devoted to Rat or other evil members of the pantheon, but they are (A) closely guarded secrets, and (B) do not derive power or approval from the Twelve as a whole, even if their members think otherwise. Rat's general alignment would also have to be kept secret. But even then I'm not sure how sustainable this would be.

Alternatively, all of the Azurites, including the paladins, worship the Twelve as a pantheon as well as give veneration to specific members on occasion, because that's how the twelve have chosen to set up their structure of worship, and it doesn't cause a problem for classes that have alignment restrictions because the Twelve choose to operate in a way that doesn't cause problems.

If you stopped trying to invent problems with the setup, its likely you would have far fewer issues with it.

[Squire Doodad]

Okay, if it turns out to be the case that azurite paladins in fact only worship a certain non-evil subset of the southern Gods, that I could understand. I don't think it's terribly congruent with the text, given, e.g, occasions where Miko expressly invokes the protection of the twelve, and no real indication that specific members are reviled or excepted, but I'll grant it could be done.

What I'd be more willing to believe is that there are underground cults devoted to Rat or other evil members of the pantheon, but they are (A) closely guarded secrets, and (B) do not derive power or approval from the Twelve as a whole, even if their members think otherwise. Rat's general alignment would also have to be kept secret. But even then I'm not sure how sustainable this would be.

I think the Twelve are really distinct from the other gods in that it is the pantheon that is invoked, not the gods. So you have a Cleric of Dragon, but most of the people who worship them instead worship the Pantheon as a whole. Not so much all of the gods individually but rather the idea of the pantheon itself, if that makes any sense.

You do have some valid arguments, but I agree that you are overthinking this a little.

[Lacuna Caster]

I think the Twelve are really distinct from the other gods in that it is the pantheon that is invoked, not the gods. So you have a Cleric of Dragon, but most of the people who worship them instead worship the Pantheon as a whole. Not so much all of the gods individually but rather the idea of the pantheon itself, if that makes any sense.

You do have some valid arguments, but I agree that you are overthinking this a little.

Well, sure. I'm hyperanalysing a stick-figure webcomic based in part on some relatively obscure offhand remarks by the author in regard to details that 99% of readers will never notice or care about. I get that. (If I were prepared to do some fudging, I could also imagine that mystic theurges in OOTSverse have the ability to siphon divine power without any actual divine approval, a la ur-priests, or something. I just don't see Tsukiko as this innocuous non-event in need of no real explanation.)

And, you know, with all respect, this is not a forum known for it's underthinking of otherwise obscure content, so I don't see why picking apart the Gods' management policies shouldn't be fair game here.

[Goblin_Priest]

So much ado...

[Fyraltari]

Whoa whoa whoa. If you can't give me any specific evidence that the Twelve had more urgent and grating problems to deal with than a massive goblin invasion of one of their biggest cities, I'm not going to oblige some request for more detailed evidence that they knew the same invasion was happening. I've done more than enough homework here. This is a double standard.

No it isn't. You are the one making the claim that there is a plot-hole ther, you need to make your case. We have been shown the gods being oblivious to something multiple times and we've seen Thor having issues juggling mutltiple duties at once.

If you want to claim that the Twelve must have known about the coming invasion, you need something to support that claim. Failing you providing that, it is entirely reasonable to conclude that they did not.

I'm not talking about them taking care of problems themselves. I'm talking about taking fifteen minutes to let their followers know the problem exists.

Actively monitoring threats to Azure City is taking care of their problems (specifically surveillance duty) for them.

And I'm certainly not talking about 'every single employee'. I mean seriously, how many level 16+ paladins do you think even exist in OOTSverse? How many of those serve the Twelve, and how many of those are specifically aware of the Snarl, which makes them one of a small number of followers who they can rely on to dispatch after Snarl-related threats, which we know that the Twelve have relied on the Guard to do before?

You can't just say that the Twelve are indifferent to these kinds of crises when the Guard's past crusades were expressly motivated by the Twelve's desire to end the threat of the Crimson Mantle. As long as that's true, Miko is not just some incidental cubicle-dweller.

"God-given orders" to do what? To seek out the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle? Or to battle evil wherever it is found?

...Because you're, e.g, cramming them into a single city-state with a unified clerical hierarchy and judicial system where the paladins have considerable authority to seek out criminals and bring them to justice? In principle, Gods with incompatible agendas in the North and West can stake out separate territories or social classes and otherwise minimise contact between their followers- you can't do this when everyone is 'using the same facilities', so to speak. I mean, what is going to happen when the paladins walk into the temple on sunday, scan with Detect Evil, and find that 1/3 of the congregation are eating babies, or something? I don't think that setup is sustainable for very long.
I find it much more likely that Clerics of the Twelve would just have an entirely commonsensical "don't be Evil" restriction.

Azure City is not the whole of the Continent. That the High priest of the church lived there does not mean all nine alignements of clerics were equally represented within its borders. It's entirely possible that Evil clerics avoid Azure City because of how many paladins there are there. They would pobably prefer the Realm of the Dragon who seemed quite Evil-Empire-y in HotPGhS. Also, being evil isn't a crime. Paladins have to be LG and evil Azurite Clerics are protected by Azurite Law (the goblins and outlaws aren't) that Gin-Jun and Miko presumably swore to uphold, so unless they have evidence of an evil Cleric having committed a crime attacking them they'd be breaking their code, so they'd have to tolerate them. The same reason Kubota wasn't turned into a shish-kebab twenty years prior, too.

Whatever you're describing here, it isn't a paladin.

The part you quoted? Yeah. The part you didn't?

It's also entirely possible to consider the existence of evil gods as a sad metaphysical necessity (which is true in this universe). but the most likely answer is that, just like Minrah never questionned why there were no Eastern Gods and accepted it, most paladin never question why 2-3 of the Twelve are Evil and just accept it.

I don't see a contradiction with paladinhood.

[Aveline]

I took it at face value before that the old Sapphire Guard were instructed by the Twelve to hunt the bearer of the Crimson Mantle, but I don't think so any more. I reread the relevant sections of SOD and GDGU and did not see any such indication. Information about the Mantle (information which was consistently faulty, I might add) more likely came from divinations.

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

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One paladin even suggests asking a Celestial which is physically before the Guard to do such a divination. Not only did Gin-Jun reject the idea, the Celestial in question had absolutely no idea why she was summoned and probably would not have been able to give useful intel.

So that is also a strike against the idea that senior clergy could summon a Planar Ally just whenever and get a direct line to the Twelve for immediate advisement.

I believe that brings us back to zero known instances of the Twelve giving orders. (You could arguably count the initial calls for the two known Godsmoots, and the other dozens of moots that have taken place in this world, but Godsmoots are essential for the gods to be able to pull the plug on the world. Governing a city and managing it's resources is not.)

Furthermore:

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

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During HTPGHS, Azure City was engaged in a war with. Obviously, they survived. Hinjo also tells us of an Ancient Empire that predated Azure City.

Should the Twelve have assisted Azure City in this war? If not, why then should they have taken action against the hobgoblin invasion?

Azure City falling to a military invasion isn't that big a deal to the Twelve. As a city-state, it's extremely young. Those things come and go all the time. Yes, this one has a rift in it - but a threat to the institution of Azure City is not the same thing as a threat to the rift's integrity. The only reason Soon's Gate was at risk was that Redcloak and Xykon had plans - not exactly public information, even to the gods.



Also, I'm just wondering - on a completely immaterial tangent - do we see Tsukiko actually cast any cleric-exclusive spells? That is, do we even know for a fact that she's not an ex-cleric mystic theurge?

[Peelee]

Also, I'm just wondering - on a completely immaterial tangent - do we see Tsukiko actually cast any cleric-exclusive spells? That is, do we even know for a fact that she's not an ex-cleric mystic theurge?

Yep. One of the first things Xykon asks her.

Inflict Critical Wounds
Necromancy
Level: Cleric 4, Destruction 4

[woweedd]

Yep. One of the first things Xykon asks her.

Well, I guess she could technically be a Favored Soul..,.

[Whispri]

Azure City falling to a military invasion isn't that big a deal to the Twelve.

Tell that to Rat.

[Lacuna Caster]

I took it at face value before that the old Sapphire Guard were instructed by the Twelve to hunt the bearer of the Crimson Mantle, but I don't think so any more. I reread the relevant sections of SOD and GDGU and did not see any such indication.

Information about the Mantle (information which was consistently faulty, I might add) more likely came from divinations.

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

Show

One paladin even suggests asking a Celestial which is physically before the Guard to do such a divination. Not only did Gin-Jun reject the idea, the Celestial in question had absolutely no idea why she was summoned and probably would not have been able to give useful intel.

So that is also a strike against the idea that senior clergy could summon a Planar Ally just whenever and get a direct line to the Twelve for immediate advisement.

Yes, but Rich's own forum commentary clearly spells out "God-given orders". Not "vague inferences of a threat to the Gates based on human observations", AKA "a glorified hunch."

As for GDGU-

Spoiler

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For what it's worth, the celestial in question was summoned while they were in the middle of the shower, or something, so clearly they hadn't had a chance to be properly briefed with information by the Twelve, but we still know perfectly well that Qar and Sabine have been used as go-betweens on behalf of their fiendish patrons, so given a modicum of coordination there's no good reason why the Twelve couldn't do the same thing.

But I will broadly agree that if the Gods are handing out orders at all, there is a great deal of additional information that it seems like they could have furnished during the course of pursuing the Bearer. Which, again, is not reducing my puzzlement.

More broadly... the problem with using GDGU as a source of information on what the Gods wanted is that the premise of the story is incoherent. The overwhelming thrust of O-Chul's arguments is that attacking the hobgoblins based on spurious reasoning is leading to harmful outcomes on a massive scale- in other words it is Evil behaviour. But the Twelve's refusal to strip Gin-Jun of his powers the moment he started ordering civilian massacres in the pursuit of an objective that was, in truth, pointless, is only intelligible if (A) the Twelve Gods are totally indifferent to gratuitous slaughter and the prospect of war or (B) the Twelve thought themselves that the Bearer was hiding somewhere in the settlements he assaulted and therefore turned a blind eye. They could have stopped this any time with an appropriate pyrotechnic light-show, and yet they don't.

Both of these explanations make hash of the usual terms and conditions of the paladin code, so I'm reluctant to rely on this text for any kind of inference, but certainly option B does not signal that the Twelve were indifferent to hunting down the Bearer, and option A implies that they really don't like those hobgoblins. Either way, they're not value-neutral about terrestrial affairs.

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

Show

During HTPGHS, Azure City was engaged in a war with [the Realm of the Dragon]. Obviously, they survived. Hinjo also tells us of an Ancient Empire that predated Azure City.

Should the Twelve have assisted Azure City in this war? If not, why then should they have taken action against the hobgoblin invasion?

Azure City falling to a military invasion isn't that big a deal to the Twelve. As a city-state, it's extremely young. Those things come and go all the time. Yes, this one has a rift in it - but a threat to the institution of Azure City is not the same thing as a threat to the rift's integrity.

But of course it is- the Azure City rift is sealed within a sapphire built into the throne of the castle's grand hall. If the hobgoblins do any kind of interior redecoration- such as with, for example, siege weapons, or because they just don't like the colour of the wallpaper after they take up residence- then there's a serious risk to the integrity of the Gate.

Spoiler

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Secondly, for all we know the Gods were answering commune spells left, right and centre during the war with the Realm of the Dragon and/or other military conflicts. I would suspect that the Realm of the Dragon doesn't have many southern-God clerics- for all the same reasons that Tsukiko creates problems, only writ larger, in that it's hard to claim "God is on our side" when God is clearly helping out the other side. But I could imagine that if both polities worshipped southern Gods the pantheon could adopt a neutral stance, or just wind up saying "don't have a war, please". Either way, that rationale wouldn't apply to the Dark-One-worshipping goblinoids.

In any case, this is the kind of reasoning that one might use to say "Miko doesn't use transport spells to reach her destination, therefore Teleport/Wind-Walk spells are not accessible by the Guard". And yet, Shojo clearly had access to Teleport/Wind-Walk capability. That's the point. That's my whole problem. These elements don't add up.

[woweedd]

Yes, but Rich's own forum commentary clearly spells out "God-given orders". Not "vague inferences of a threat to the Gates based on human observations", AKA "a glorified hunch."

As for GDGU-

Spoiler

Show

For what it's worth, the celestial in question was summoned while they were in the middle of the shower, or something, so clearly they hadn't had a chance to be properly briefed with information by the Twelve, but we still know perfectly well that Qar and Sabine have been used as go-betweens on behalf of their fiendish patrons, so given a modicum of coordination there's no good reason why the Twelve couldn't do the same thing.

But I will broadly agree that if the Gods are handing out orders at all, there is a great deal of additional information that it seems like they could have furnished during the course of pursuing the Bearer. Which, again, is not reducing my puzzlement.

More broadly... the problem with using GDGU as a source of information on what the Gods wanted is that the premise of the story is incoherent. The overwhelming thrust of O-Chul's arguments is that attacking the hobgoblins based on spurious reasoning is leading to harmful outcomes on a massive scale- in other words it is Evil behaviour. But the Twelve's refusal to strip Gin-Jun of his powers the moment he started ordering civilian massacres in the pursuit of an objective that was, in truth, pointless, is only intelligible if (A) the Twelve Gods are totally indifferent to gratuitous slaughter and the prospect of war or (B) the Twelve thought themselves that the Bearer was hiding somewhere in the settlements he assaulted and therefore turned a blind eye. They could have stopped this any time with an appropriate pyrotechnic light-show, and yet they don't.

Both of these explanations make hash of the usual terms and conditions of the paladin code, so I'm reluctant to rely on this text for any kind of inference, but certainly option B does not signal that the Twelve were indifferent to hunting down the Bearer, and option A implies that they really don't like those hobgoblins. Either way, they're not value-neutral about terrestrial affairs.

But of course it is- the Azure City rift is sealed within a sapphire built into the throne of the castle's grand hall. If the hobgoblins do any kind of interior redecoration- such as with, for example, siege weapons, or because they just don't like the colour of the wallpaper after they take up residence- then there's a serious risk to the integrity of the Gate.

Spoiler

Show

Secondly, for all we know the Gods were answering commune spells left, right and centre during the war with the Realm of the Dragon and/or other military conflicts. I would suspect that the Realm of the Dragon doesn't have many southern-God clerics- for all the same reasons that Tsukiko creates problems, only writ larger, in that it's hard to claim "God is on our side" when God is clearly helping out the other side. But I could imagine that if both polities worshipped southern Gods the pantheon could adopt a neutral stance, or just wind up saying "don't have a war, please". Either way, that rationale wouldn't apply to the Dark-One-worshipping goblinoids.

In any case, this is the kind of reasoning that one might use to say "Miko doesn't use transport spells to reach her destination, therefore Teleport/Wind-Walk spells are not accessible by the Guard". And yet, Shojo clearly had access to Teleport/Wind-Walk capability. That's the point. That's my whole problem. These elements don't add up.

Last I checked, Shojo has exactly one Wizard capable of teleporting.

[Kish]

Last I checked, Shojo has exactly one Wizard capable of teleporting.

And one cleric, the High Priest of the Twelve Gods (tried to resurrect the Lord of the City at Hinjo's request and died fighting Redcloak, but no indication of being a member of the Sapphire Guard), verified capable of casting Commune.

Lacuna seems to find the concept of limited resources incomprehensible.

[Aveline]

Yes, but Rich's own forum commentary clearly spells out "God-given orders". Not "vague inferences of a threat to the Gates based on human observations", AKA "a glorified hunch."

I think this leans too heavily on a specific interpretation of what "god-given orders" refers to. It could just as easily mean the paladin code in general, given the context of whether or not various paladins should fall.

As for GDGU-

Spoiler

Show

For what it's worth, the celestial in question was summoned while they were in the middle of the shower, or something, so clearly they hadn't had a chance to be properly briefed with information by the Twelve, but we still know perfectly well that Qar and Sabine have been used as go-betweens on behalf of their fiendish patrons, so given a modicum of coordination there's no good reason why the Twelve couldn't do the same thing.

But I will broadly agree that if the Gods are handing out orders at all, there is a great deal of additional information that it seems like they could have furnished during the course of pursuing the Bearer. Which, again, is not reducing my puzzlement.

More broadly... the problem with using GDGU as a source of information on what the Gods wanted is that the premise of the story is incoherent. The overwhelming thrust of O-Chul's arguments is that attacking the hobgoblins based on spurious reasoning is leading to harmful outcomes on a massive scale- in other words it is Evil behaviour. But the Twelve's refusal to strip Gin-Jun of his powers the moment he started ordering civilian massacres in the pursuit of an objective that was, in truth, pointless, is only intelligible if (A) the Twelve Gods are totally indifferent to gratuitous slaughter and the prospect of war or (B) the Twelve thought themselves that the Bearer was hiding somewhere in the settlements he assaulted and therefore turned a blind eye. They could have stopped this any time with an appropriate pyrotechnic light-show, and yet they don't.

Both of these explanations make hash of the usual terms and conditions of the paladin code, so I'm reluctant to rely on this text for any kind of inference, but certainly option B does not signal that the Twelve were indifferent to hunting down the Bearer, and option A implies that they really don't like those hobgoblins. Either way, they're not value-neutral about terrestrial affairs.

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

Show

Option C: They simply weren't paying the necessary attention to notice a secret society of paladins stirring war (but ultimately stopping before war actually broke out). Option D: They didn't need to stop Gin-Jun from massacring a village, because O-Chul had it well in hand. Option E: They don't fell paladins preemptively.

But of course it is- the Azure City rift is sealed within a sapphire built into the throne of the castle's grand hall. If the hobgoblins do any kind of interior redecoration- such as with, for example, siege weapons, or because they just don't like the colour of the wallpaper after they take up residence- then there's a serious risk to the integrity of the Gate.

Then the Gate goes back to being a Rift, which is where things were before Azure City existed, under which circumstances the Twelve may or may not have voted to destroy the world. For all they know, the gates don't actually do anything at all. They're just seeing how far this "let the mortals solve things on their own" thing goes before they pull the plug.

Spoiler

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Secondly, for all we know the Gods were answering commune spells left, right and centre during the war with the Realm of the Dragon and/or other military conflicts. I would suspect that the Realm of the Dragon doesn't have many southern-God clerics- for all the same reasons that Tsukiko creates problems, only writ larger, in that it's hard to claim "God is on our side" when God is clearly helping out the other side. But I could imagine that if both polities worshipped southern Gods the pantheon could adopt a neutral stance, or just wind up saying "don't have a war, please". Either way, that rationale wouldn't apply to the Dark-One-worshipping goblinoids.

In any case, this is the kind of reasoning that one might use to say "Miko doesn't use transport spells to reach her destination, therefore Teleport/Wind-Walk spells are not accessible by the Guard". And yet, Shojo clearly had access to Teleport/Wind-Walk capability. That's the point. That's my whole problem. These elements don't add up.

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

Show

Azure City was still the site of a Gate during the war with the Realm of the Dragon. If they should have warned Azure City during the events of OOTS, then they should have done so during OOTS. The reason they didn't on either occasion is that they just don't take this world seriously. Their fingers are on the button.

[Peelee]

I think option e shouldn't really be an option, but a mandate.

[Aveline]

I think option e shouldn't really be an option, but a mandate.

That reminds me, I forgot something.

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

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Gin-Jun probably fell on-screen the moment he attacked O-Chul, in circumstances conspicuously similar to Miko's fall.

[Peelee]

That reminds me, I forgot something.

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

Show

Gin-Jun probably fell on-screen the moment he attacked O-Chul, in circumstances conspicuously similar to Miko's fall.

Seconded. I won't believe otherwise unless explicitly told by the author.

[woweedd]

That reminds me, I forgot something.

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

Show

Gin-Jun probably fell on-screen the moment he attacked O-Chul, in circumstances conspicuously similar to Miko's fall.

Sadly, there's no way to tell, since the armor color...Ya know.

[hamishspence]

Yes, but Rich's own forum commentary clearly spells out "God-given orders". Not "vague inferences of a threat to the Gates based on human observations", AKA "a glorified hunch."

As for GDGU-

Spoiler

Show

the problem with using GDGU as a source of information on what the Gods wanted is that the premise of the story is incoherent. The overwhelming thrust of O-Chul's arguments is that attacking the hobgoblins based on spurious reasoning is leading to harmful outcomes on a massive scale- in other words it is Evil behaviour. But the Twelve's refusal to strip Gin-Jun of his powers the moment he started ordering civilian massacres in the pursuit of an objective that was, in truth, pointless, is only intelligible if (A) the Twelve Gods are totally indifferent to gratuitous slaughter and the prospect of war or (B) the Twelve thought themselves that the Bearer was hiding somewhere in the settlements he assaulted and therefore turned a blind eye. They could have stopped this any time with an appropriate pyrotechnic light-show, and yet they don't.

Both of these explanations make hash of the usual terms and conditions of the paladin code, so I'm reluctant to rely on this text for any kind of inference, but certainly option B does not signal that the Twelve were indifferent to hunting down the Bearer, and option A implies that they really don't like those hobgoblins. Either way, they're not value-neutral about terrestrial affairs.

As Gin-Jun and O-Chul say at the time:

Spoiler

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Gin-Jun: "if the goblins choose to answer our actions with Evil, that does not make our actions themselves less Good."

O-Chul: "Listen to yourself! You are a paladin! You are supposed to defend the innocent. But you are so concerned with whether or not your actions are Good - you have forgotten whether or not they are for the best."

O-Chul's criticism isn't "these actions are evil" it's "these actions are wrong."

As to whether "The Twelve Gods" frowned on Gin-Jun-ish behaviour, War & XPs commentary hints that they didn't:

Most damning, though, is a decades-long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods (a point that is seen directly in the pages of Start of Darkness). That the city's undoing should be orchestrated by Redcloak, a villain that they themselves accidentally created, is only fitting. The Twelve Gods might have sanctioned their massacres, but even the gods can't stop Karma from kicking them in their divine asses once in a while.

[RatElemental]

...Because you're, e.g, cramming them into a single city-state with a unified clerical hierarchy and judicial system where the paladins have considerable authority to seek out criminals and bring them to justice? In principle, Gods with incompatible agendas in the North and West can stake out separate territories or social classes and otherwise minimise contact between their followers- you can't do this when everyone is 'using the same facilities', so to speak. I mean, what is going to happen when the paladins walk into the temple on sunday, scan with Detect Evil, and find that 1/3 of the congregation are eating babies, or something? I don't think that setup is sustainable for very long..

I imagine they'd take the level 1-8ish commoner/expert aside and have a chat with them about what's troubling them because having an evil alignment doesn't mean you moonlight as a cultist attempting to summon Cthulhu by spilling the blood of the innocent.

If the person has committed a crime, and they can prove it, then that's what prison is for. And besides, worshipping the same group of gods doesn't qualify as "knowingly associating" with the congregants.

I don't see any reason to believe Tsukiko was anything other than an aberration in azure city either, and for all we know the high priest of Rat is neutral.

(If I were prepared to do some fudging, I could also imagine that mystic theurges in OOTSverse have the ability to siphon divine power without any actual divine approval, a la ur-priests, or something. I just don't see Tsukiko as this innocuous non-event in need of no real explanation.)

I have no real disagreement here, but I did run the numbers once and I think it was plausible for Tsukiko to have qualified for mystic theurge using ur-priest as her divine class for it. The build was very silly though.

[Kish]

Coming up with an explanation for why Tsukiko is able to function as a lone Neutral Evil cleric of an all-Lawful-Good pantheon would not change the fact that the Twelve Gods are explicitly not an all-Lawful-Good, or even all-nonevil, pantheon.

[Squire Doodad]

My question is, what if Elan had ended his speech with the "But they'll never take our freedom!" bit, and Hinjo had taken the MoJ off of Belkar before the fight?
If you apply a morale boost to everyone in Azure City's army, and assume it lasts until maybe halfway through (~when the Death Knight comes in), and have an additional high level PC in the fight, then would that have been enough to turn the tide?

[Bedinsis]

My question is, what if Elan had ended his speech with the "But they'll never take our freedom!" bit, and Hinjo had taken the MoJ off of Belkar before the fight?
If you apply a morale boost to everyone in Azure City's army, and assume it lasts until maybe halfway through (~when the Death Knight comes in), and have an additional high level PC in the fight, then would that have been enough to turn the tide?

Judging by Belkar's... inner turmoil in this page I suspect the end result would be a dead Hinjo.

[Squire Doodad]

Judging by Belkar's... inner turmoil in this page I suspect the end result would be a dead Hinjo.

Ah right, forgot about that.
Let's just go with "complimentary morale boost" then. Anyone know if that's enough to turn the tide?

[Ruck]

Coming up with an explanation for why Tsukiko is able to function as a lone Neutral Evil cleric of an all-Lawful-Good pantheon would not change the fact that the Twelve Gods are explicitly not an all-Lawful-Good, or even all-nonevil, pantheon.

weird how Lacuna never, ever responds to this, right?

[Aquillion]

Ah right, forgot about that.
Let's just go with "complimentary morale boost" then. Anyone know if that's enough to turn the tide?

Extremely unlikely. The core elements of their defeat were:

1. The breach in the wall.

2. The giant soldiers getting killed, leaving nobody holding the breach. Note that this happened near-instantly.

3. Redcloak deciding to rush the breach all at once.

4. The gate exploding, although honestly by that point Azure City was already in trouble.

It's hard to see how either the morale or Belkar could have influenced any of that. Having people refuse to run might have made a small difference when Redcloak rushed the breach, but honestly, the city fell because Redcloak was a better caster who used his spells more effectively and who also had a larger army. Given how the people who did stay behind got trampled near-instantly, I don't feel his charge would have been stopped by higher morale among the defenders.

[understatement]

What Aquillion said. It was RC rushing the breach at the right time.

Ideally (I think) one is supposed to rush it the moment it was made -- but that would've been an unforeseen error on Team Evil's part, since the Order was still intact and together can definitely hold the breach. Also, the hobgoblin southern forces still drew off enough Azure City soldiers.

[Kish]

weird how Lacuna never, ever responds to this, right?

The ironic thing is that he could push, "It's a plot hole that a pantheon, provably including at least one evil member and probably including members of all alignments, was presented as presiding over a paladin's fall" and I'd probably agree with him (thought I might consider "plot hole" strong phrasing for a single panel). But he seems really invested in the idea that paladins are variant clerics and any divine entities they invoke in their oaths must be Lawful Good.