OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread

[D.One]

Roy's comments to Belkar about dancing on his grave seem to indicate that he told Belkar at some point. Whether Belkar remembers or cares remains to be seen.

Can't quite remember this one. When did it happen?

[Lvl45DM!]

The story hasn't been the same without him.

[Hamste]

I think this is a reference to "The Gamers 2", where the Monk in his "philosophical" rambling makes that comment.
Which, in turn, is a reference to the periodic table.

Funnily enough, it is also the name of the god of death and sleep from the German "The Dark Eye" TRPG.

Then, I made a joke about how Boron can sound like boring if you don't emphasize the on enough and how they phrased it works if you switch boron for boring.

[Quebbster]

Can't quite remember this one. When did it happen?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html
I'm going to dance on your grave, you know. [...] Maybe a nice jig? I haven't decided.

[Floret]

Then, I made a joke about how Boron can sound like boring if you don't emphasize the on enough and how they phrased it works if you switch boron for boring.

Didn't catch that as a joke. My mistake

[Lord Torath]

I think this is a reference to "The Gamers 2", where the Monk in his "philosophical" rambling makes that comment.
Which, in turn, is a reference to the periodic table.

Funnily enough, it is also the name of the god of death and sleep from the German "The Dark Eye" TRPG.

Huh. I was thinking of The Fifth Element, Leeloo

[Peelee]

More character development! Come to think of it, that was the turning point, wasn't it? That was when Belkar really started thinking about others besides himself (and his cat).

I think when Belkar finally dies, he won't be pure Chaotic Evil. Probably Chaotic Neutral (with Evil Tendencies).

Chaotic Evil but three-dimensional does not equate to Chaotic Neutral. Belkar was one - dimensional. He then had the vision quest. He is now three-dimensional. I fail to see him being significantly less evil.

[Hamste]

Huh. I was thinking of The Fifth Element, Leeloo

It could also have been a Captain Planet joke where heart was paired with fire, earth, water and wind. Heart comes up as the fifth element a lot apparently.

[SilverCacaobean]

Chaotic Evil but three-dimensional does not equate to Chaotic Neutral. Belkar was one - dimensional. He then had the vision quest. He is now three-dimensional. I fail to see him being significantly less evil.

Me too, but he did bother to tell the beer dude to not blame himself. So, somewhat less evil?

[alwaysbebatman]

Chaotic Evil but three-dimensional does not equate to Chaotic Neutral. Belkar was one - dimensional. He then had the vision quest. He is now three-dimensional. I fail to see him being significantly less evil.

If he was actually, successfully following Shojo's advice, "faking it," he would be three-dimensionally evil.

But instead, he has shown flashes of empathy, duty, and regret entirely inconsistent with the person he used to be.

The halfling who says "...he didn't blame me." isn't faking it anymore.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am completely on board with this. Things have obviously been quite dull ever since Dionysus kicked the bucket along with the rest of the Greek Pantheon, so what this world really needs is a new God of Partying.

A possible role for post demise Belkar?

The only winning move? Get the gate system down to one protected gate, with no loose ends / weak gates. What will protect the last gate? I'm thinking the MITD.

What gate?

What if Odin gave the prophecy knowing Hels gambit- and he wanted to give as many Dwarves as possible an honorable death before the world gets unmade.

Yarn within Yarn.

Soon thwarted Xykon in Azure City.

Yep, until Miko gooned it.

But...that would make no sense.

Happens with some frequency on this forum.

[Zyzzyva]

If he was actually, successfully following Shojo's advice, "faking it," he would be three-dimensionally evil.

But instead, he has shown flashes of empathy, duty, and regret entirely inconsistent with the person he used to be.

The halfling who says "...he didn't blame me." isn't faking it anymore.

And the halfling who casually leaves his "options open" with respect to murdering Roy for no particular reason is still pretty damn evil.

The fact that he is now capable of empathy, sometimes, doesn't make him not an evil murderous little bastard. Just a less one-dimensionally psychopathic one.

[Skull the Troll]

That's virtually impossible with free willed beings. Anyone makes an unexpected decision and the chain of events to create the Xykon beating super team fails. It's like long term prediction in a massive feedback system like weather. Mind you, such an argument makes prophecy ridiculous, throwing the plotline out the window, but I'll run with it.

Now, Odin could be some hyper-intelligent being, capable of extrapolating the future and seeing how to nudge unpredictable people in ways us mere humans can never imagine, explaining prophecy and how he can create a super team. Except Odin is portrayed as a senile old man.

Unless this is the metaphysics rule that prophecies must always happen because drama throws logic out the window and divine plans to create a super team always work because drama throws logic out the window.

Did you even read Blood Runs in the Family? Of course drama trumps logic in this comic. Of course there are forces at work to make unlikely things happen. You are trying to cram your personal experience of a logical (boring) world into a world of magic. Nothing we have read particularly leads us to believe that any of these people are even free-willed at all. Never minding situations where people get charmed, or dominated, etc, they live in a world with literal gods and monsters that control the very universe.

[thereaper]

If he was actually, successfully following Shojo's advice, "faking it," he would be three-dimensionally evil.

But instead, he has shown flashes of empathy, duty, and regret entirely inconsistent with the person he used to be.

The halfling who says "...he didn't blame me." isn't faking it anymore.

There is a lot of room between these two extremes. How about "Evil, but much less so than before"?

[Deepbluediver]

If he was actually, successfully following Shojo's advice, "faking it," he would be three-dimensionally evil.

But instead, he has shown flashes of empathy, duty, and regret entirely inconsistent with the person he used to be.

The halfling who says "...he didn't blame me." isn't faking it anymore.

I agree that Belkar is becoming less self-centered, but I don't believe that makes him not-evil yet. Even evil people can have or occasionally display good qualities, and while you might like them that doesn't make them good. *cough* Malak *unconvincing cough*

Also, he's been fighting his own developing conscience and trying to hide it from the rest of the party, so we the audience get a much broader picture of Belkar than anyone in-story, I think.

[Wowlock]

I don't believe or trust in prophecies... they cause more problems than they solve. Otherwise, every evil villain would come up with a prophecy to 'win'. All I believe is ''possible futures'' where your CHOICE decides which one becomes true. Because if a prophecy is gonna happen, no matter what, there would be no point in telling anyone or trying to prevent it. See how ridiculous it gets ?

Either way, Durkon needs to get his body back and Hel needs to get her dead-goddess ass kicked. Just throw her into Snarl for all I care.

[Peelee]

Me too, but he did bother to tell the beer dude to not blame himself. So, somewhat less evil?

Somewhat less evil, from previously incredibly evil, is still pretty damn evil. He is growing, I'll fully cop to that

If he was actually, successfully following Shojo's advice, "faking it," he would be three-dimensionally evil.

But instead, he has shown flashes of empathy, duty, and regret entirely inconsistent with the person he used to be.

I have yet to see any regret, which I consider one of the central aspects to change. It appears Soon does as well; "to admit that you were, in fact, wrong."

I don't believe or trust in prophecies... they cause more problems than they solve. Otherwise, every evil villain would come up with a prophecy to 'win'.

Wait, what? You can't just say, "I prophesied that I will conquer the world" and call it a day. Prophesies as presented in most stories are pulled from some power that is actually able to tell the future, not pulled out of someone's ass. It's foretelling, not justification.

[Quebbster]

I don't believe or trust in prophecies... they cause more problems than they solve. Otherwise, every evil villain would come up with a prophecy to 'win'. All I believe is ''possible futures'' where your CHOICE decides which one becomes true. Because if a prophecy is gonna happen, no matter what, there would be no point in telling anyone or trying to prevent it. See how ridiculous it gets ?

Either way, Durkon needs to get his body back and Hel needs to get her dead-goddess ass kicked. Just throw her into Snarl for all I care.

That's kind of the point of the prophecy as a dramatic tool. You can't just order one to suit your needs, and if you try to prevent the prophecy you got from coming true it will still come true, just in a more dramatic fashion that makes a smashing film.

That said, the Lego Movie has an interesting take on the whole prophecy concept.

[mouser9169]

Maybe there's a cost involved? Odin's "cost" was Durkon, the prophecy both got it rolling and warned that there would be trouble if Durkon returned to ensure he didn't return before he was needed to stop Xykon and Redcloak. Tiamat was doling out future prophesies like they were candy at Halloween, her "cost" was a looooooooooooooooooot of Dragons.

It's something I've just pulled out of my back pocket at 2AM but I can see it working that way. OF course I'm going to be way off here but still, it's a theory

This is sort of Odin's whole "thing".

The end of Norse mythology is Ragnarok. The giants bust in and kill everyone - gods and mortals. There is no rebirth afterward, that was Christian fan-fiction added later. Heroism in the face of a lost cause.

Odin spends all his time and energy trying to find ways to delay that event. That's why he only has one eye, for example. So for Odin to see something like this is right in his wheelhouse.



Apart from that, this ranks as one of my favorite comics of the strip. This is what stories told over a long period of time are capable of.

[Canuck617]

Well done.

Stuff like that is ultimately why I read the threads!

Thanks! Glad you found it funny.

[Ruck]

Chaotic Evil but three-dimensional does not equate to Chaotic Neutral. Belkar was one - dimensional. He then had the vision quest. He is now three-dimensional. I fail to see him being significantly less evil.

I think if your observation of Belkar was limited solely to this book you'd be hard pressed to call him evil.

[alwaysbebatman]

@many who said some variation of "okay, he's less evil, but he's still evil":

Yes, that is the case I was making: that Belkar is becoming less evil, not that he has already changed alignments. I was arguing against the idea that he hasn't gotten less evil.

I think he likely WILL change alignments before his date with the reaper. But not because he's changing quickly enough for that to make sense, really. Just because it'll be more dramatic that way. Likely some epiphany along the way will speed up the process.

I have yet to see any regret, which I consider one of the central aspects to change. It appears Soon does as well; "to admit that you were, in fact, wrong."

I'm very confused by this statement. Do you mean he hasn't shown regret for evil in general? Because everything going on with Belkar hinges on regret and survivor guilt. Specifically that Belkar died to save him. He regrets not being able to help. He regrets (and is confused by) the fact that Durkon died to save him.

[Peelee]

I think if your observation of Belkar was limited solely to this book you'd be hard pressed to call him evil.

I think if your observation of Hitler was limited solely to his wedding, you'd be hard pressed to call him evil.

Belkar has not done much evil lately, yes. He has done one whole helluva lotta evil in the past, and has not expressed regret, sorrow, or any other concern for his past actions. He also seems to still revel in the boons of evil, such as being sad that nobody reacts to his name with wailing lamentations. You'll forgive me if I still peg him as solidly evil. Now, he has a lot more depth than he used to, I think that's inarguable. But I don't arbitrarily equate character depth to morality on the Good/Evil axis.

I'm very confused by this statement. Do you mean he hasn't shown regret for evil in general? Because everything going on with Belkar hinges on regret and survivor guilt. Specifically that Belkar died to save him. He regrets not being able to help. He regrets (and is confused by) the fact that Durkon died to save him.

Vaarsuvius committed an act of great evil. He now acknowledges that it was wrong of him to do so, and he laments that he did it.

Belkar committed an act of great evil (pick one). He has at no point acknowledged that it was wrong of him to do so, and has never lamented that he did it. Hell, he still takes pride in it (see above link). Sure, he regrets that Durkon died trying to help him. Sure, he's sad that he couldn't help Durkon. Durkon didn't blame Belkar for being dominated by Malack. Belkar appreciates this. Belkar is still Evil. The two have no relation to each other, and I'm confused why you would try to equate the two.

I do not think Belkar will change alignment without acknowledging that he was, in fact, wrong.

[Ruck]

I think if your observation of Hitler was limited solely to his wedding, you'd be hard pressed to call him evil.

The fact that you have to go here to make your point strains it to the point of breaking.

Belkar has not done much evil lately, yes.

Right, so he's being significantly less evil. Glad we agree.

[Peelee]

The fact that you have to go here to make your point strains it to the point of breaking.

I disagree. If you pay attention to a limited, specific timeline, then you can make most people seem to be anything, is the point.

ETA: Would you prefer Ted Kaczynski? Jack the Ripper? Any given person on death row? Despite what you claim, the name doesn't matter, the point is the same.

Right, so he's being significantly less evil. Glad we agree.

Not actively doing evil and being significant less evil are different things. He's not actively doing evil, yes, we agree on this. He's not significantly less evil, no, we do not agree. As far as I can tell, you think he's significantly less evil when eating dinner, or bathing, because he's not doing anything evil at the time.

ETA 2: Also, I'm amused that you can call my analogy spurious, while you effectively say, "so if I misread your comment in a specific way thatmeansyouagreewithmesoimright." Talk about the pot and kettle...

[Ruck]

I disagree. If you pay attention to a limited, specific timeline, then you can make most people seem to be anything, is the point.

ETA: Would you prefer Ted Kaczynski? Jack the Ripper? Any given person on death row? Despite what you claim, the name doesn't matter, the point is the same.

There's a huge difference between "a random point in someone's life" and "what they are doing, now, after undergoing an experience that changes them." I think you know this and I don't understand why you're pretending not to.

Not actively doing evil and being significant less evil are different things. He's not actively doing evil, yes, we agree on this. He's not significantly less evil, no, we do not agree. As far as I can tell, you think he's significantly less evil when eating dinner, or bathing, because he's not doing anything evil at the time.

ETA 2: Also, I'm amused that you can call my analogy spurious, while you effectively say, "so if I misread your comment in a specific way thenmeansyouagreewithmesoimright." Talk about the pot and kettle...

I think we are what we do, pretty much, so someone who is no longer doing evil is no longer being evil. (Which isn't to say that he still wouldn't register as Evil in the OOTS cosmos, but that's not really what we're talking about.)

Speaking of misreading, you keep changing "has been changed by an experience to the point where he's no longer regularly, or even apparently at all, committing evil acts" to "I saw a moment where he wasn't evil so he can't be evil." Again, I don't know why you're doing this.

[Peelee]

There's a huge difference between "a random point in someone's life" and "what they are doing, now, after undergoing an experience that changes them." I think you know this and I don't understand why you're pretending not to.

I'm not pretending not to, I'm just not pretending that character growth equates to anything on the Good/Evil axis. Belkar has yet to repent for any of his previous actions. Belkar has yet to do any actual Good actions. Belkar has yet to demonstrate anything that would indicate that he is not Evil anymore. He's demonstrated that he's no longer one-dimensional, which you apparently equate to non-Evil. I don't.

I think we are what we do, pretty much, so someone who is no longer doing evil is no longer being evil. (Which isn't to say that he still wouldn't register as Evil in the OOTS cosmos, but that's not really what we're talking about.)

Excuse me, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

[JumboWheat01]

Alignment discussions never end well on this forum. The Sexy, Shoe-less God of War is having some character development. Let's leave it at that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think we are what we do, pretty much, so someone who is no longer doing evil is no longer being evil.

This logic fails immediately upon even cursory examination. Does someone stop being evil in their sleep? While they have breakfast? Does someone that shoots his wife because she wasn't appropriately submissive stop being evil the moment the police wrest the gun out of their hands? How long "not doing evil" before we can consider all previous crimes null and void, especially in absence of actual regret?

It's like the joke about the guy who is really, really good at stopping smoking. Why, he stops smoking 20 times a day.

There is every indication that Belkar still enjoys causing pain, and that he will shows no compunction about killing anyone that stands in his way, or looks like they might at some point in the future stand in his way. I.e. he is still both Evil and evil.

Grey Wolf

[schmunzel]

That'll do. What are Haley, Belkar, and Vaarsuvius in this metaphor? Skin, muscle, and gut respectively? With Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy being the glands?

^Haley is quite obviously the hands while Belkar is the ar... behind.

sch