Less Murder more Hobo, or Where's the Treasure? -Rant

[2D8HP]

[RANT] What happen to treasure?

For me, proper D&D is about explorin' dungeons, encounterin' and runnin' from monsters and then lootin' the place.!

Not savin' the world!

There's too much Murder and not enough Hobo (maybe ' cause XP for is now for murder, not for gold) for my tastes.

All this "Saving the world" instead of trying to survive and prosper.

"Saving the world" seems an endless conga-line of combat with very little detail why, and there's "boss monsters" to fight for some reason.

But no treasure lately!

I like standard equipment instead of toiling away tryin' to budget the starting gold to optimize my PC's equipment, but it don't change!

Never get hardly any loot, and never get to where you can spend it anyway!

Meanwhile, other players rush into melee at first sight of most any critter, instead of tryin' to take their stuff without our PC's losin' HP!

All this murderin' without lootin' is like we're all supposed to be playin' 1e AD&D Paladins!

And why don't we track arrows, bolts, and rations?

This don't feel right!

I want to start in a tavern, loot a dungeon, try to avoid bandits that want to steal the stolen loot, and then spend the loot in the tavern just like the young Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser!

It's been too long!

I want my Dungeons & Dragons back dagnabbit![/RANT]

(Your welcome to tell me how wrong I am, but please someone truthfully tell me of recent adventures of loot grabbin' so I may feel less forlorn and lonely in my desires)

[G mayes]

Honestly, I think that method is a great way to play. Especially when you don't have the option for regular sessions. Different classes, off the cuff playing, maybe all you are is adventure guild members on a job. Leaves room to impact the world, but plays a little different.

[JackPhoenix]

I'm, in vain, trying to get my players to search the places they visit and loot all that nice stuff I'm putting there for them after they kill the original inhabitants.

I'm trying, also in vain, to get my GM to run a game where we would visit the dungeon to steal anything not nailed down (or at least the stuff with the best cost/weight/effort to pry the nails off ratio) instead of to take the next step on the road to stop the current incoming apocalypse (though, admittedly, apocalypses tend to disrupt the process of enjoying the loot).

So yes, I agree.

I just want to play proper murderhobo for once.

[Unoriginal]

I think that your DM's style doesn't fit yours, simple as that.

If you want a "let's grab loot" adventure, Forge of Fury is basically this

[Kane0]

(Your welcome to tell me how wrong I am, but please someone truthfully tell me of recent adventures of loot grabbin' so I may feel less forlorn and lonely in my desires)

Your opinion is valid, I dare you to disagree!

The mini-campaign i'm currently DMing is a series of 5 dungeon crawls only loosely tied together with some sort of plot.
Part 1: Bad guy druid attacks mining town then flees into the mana mines when the guard puts up more resistance than anticipated. PCs are paid by mayor to descend into the mana mines and resolve the problem however they see fit, getting to keep any valuables they find along the way
Part 2: Party is encouraged to raid nearby druid barrows, to find out WTF is going on and make some profit. Afterwards an optional gauntlet to become knighted by the local lord.
Part 3: Bad guy druids are besieging a castle, party sneaks in to loot the place before the druids do, plus maybe save some innocents or whatever.
Part 4: Party treks through nasty swamp evading bad guy druids hunting them down for some of the priceless relics loot they have taken over the last two chapters, passing through the dens of several dangerous critters along the way. Maybe even an ancient temple they fall into or something.
Part 5: Party stumbles upon hidden bad guy druid stronghold, ideal opportunity disrupt their plans and make off with even more priceless relics loot.

Unfortunately there's no dragons sitting on piles of coin this time around but i'm definitely going for the classic vibe. We're up to Chapter III next saturday and the guys are having a blast being able to relax a bit with a more 'beer & pretzels' mentality, tracking ammo rather than allegiances.

Edit: The most satisfying feeling I've had as a DM over the last few sessions is not witnessing the players rejoyce at overcoming the challenges I throw at them or the brilliant plays they devise to extricate themselves from their own missteps, it has been seeing the anguish on their faces when they realize they simply cannot make off with everything they have found and must leave something behind. Their opinion of mules at this point in time has never been higher.

[Davrix]

That's how you enjoy Dnd and that's perfectly fine. Other people prefer it this way now and its something the old guard either has to adapt to if they want to play games or they need to start new games and try to bring people into that style of play BUT respect the idea they still might now want to play that way and once again you have to adapt or the only Dnd you will be playing is a very boring one.

The fact is this was the kind of response many had with 4th ed and between that other things the edition tanked hard. 5th is much more popular and appeals to many more people. Not everyone loves it though and some people will always have there favorite edition they want to keep playing. Personally mine is 4th ed because I loved that system they came up with. But that's me and my players moved on to 5th so i had to as well. Your style of play falls into that and personally I don't like keeping track of arrows or food rations unless I need to. its silly and seems like to much bookkeeping to me.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I started a game that was going to be all about exploring and looting a demon-and-undead infested ruined city. No major plot in mind, no apocalyptic villains. Turns out my players had other plans.

They made allies of a set of not-so-crazy undead, gathered a bunch of outside groups (including some that were previously at odds), and are working to retake the whole city and purge the demons from it.

:shrug:

[Sigreid]

Well, if you're the player, when the people beg for your help against calamity X, say no thanks and tell the DM you want to find a nice bunch of goblins to rob instead.

[Smitty Wesson]

I think that your DM's style doesn't fit yours, simple as that.

If you want a "let's grab loot" adventure, Forge of Fury is basically this

And for that matter, Against the Giants has a nonstop supply of oversized pockets to pick.

[Armored Walrus]

Go post this in the Finding Players forum and see if you can find a DM to run that for you ;)

[mephnick]

[RANT] What happen to treasure?

For me, proper D&D is about explorin' dungeons, encounterin' and runnin' from monsters and then lootin' the place.!

Preach, brother. Leave the grand plots to Hollywood and literature. I'm here to kick ass and get rich.

[Pex]

It's a DM overreaction. They were so upset about the plethora of magic items of 3E and 4E that when 5E was created such that a PC did not absolutely need any one particular magic item to function well at any level (which is a good thing), they concluded that magic items should not exist at all. Because magic item shops are not presumed, they concluded magic items should not exist at all. Because Bounded Accuracy means a +1 is significant, they concluded magic items should not exist at all. Since magic items do not exist at all, they concluded there's no point to giving out treasure.

They're wrong, but that's what they do. It's not a 5E problem. 5E does not and has never forbid magic items. It does encourage having less magic items than a typical 3E or 4E character would have, but it's enough to be 2E level. 2E PCs had a fair share of magic items. 5E does not fall apart into an unplayable mess because PCs have permanent magic items that affect combat. 5E does not fall apart into an unplayable mess because PCs have permanent magic items that give a +1 or even +2 or +3. The +2 and +3 are for high level play.

If your DM does not give out permanent magic items, talk to him. If your DM does not give out permanent magic items that affect combat, talk to him. If your DM does not give out significant coinage for treasure appropriate to the danger you faced, talk to him. If he still refuses and you're bothered by that, get a new DM.

[ad_hoc]

TftYP is a good collection of adventures for your tastes.

[Dyndrilliac]

So, in a our current homebrew campaign which takes place in the Forgotten Realms setting, my party kicked our murderhobo game up to 11 with what is essentially a small-scale orc genocide. We were scouting the wilderness with our sneaky party members and discovered a massive orc war camp in a valley where they had constructed crude makeshift fencing to protect from attacks. We waited until nightfall, took out the sentries on watch, and then split the party. One group barricaded the entry way we first stumbled upon, and the other group circled around to the other side of the valley and did the same on the other side. We then, in a coordinated effort, covered the fencing with as much oil and animal fat as we could and set fire to it in a distributed manner spread out as much as possible. We set as many fires as possible before the orcs realized what was happening. Meanwhile, our shadow monk infiltrated the camp and sabotaged the orc's water basins with flasks of oil to stop them from being able to effectively put out the fires. We fired arrows and threw javelins at orcs who were trying desperately to flee by attempting to climb over the burning barricades.

Every orc that didn't get burned alive died of smoke inhalation. By the time dawn arrived, we had about a hundred charred orc corpses lying around a now barren valley that had previously been teeming with plant life. We then proceeded to loot the camp of gold and other metallic treasure that survived the inferno.

[DeadMech]

Why not both? Dead villains who were trying to end the world are the best people to steal from. No one cares that you did it and the world still exists for you to throw lavish parties in. Also they tend to have nice stuff.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why not both? Dead villains who were trying to end the world are the best people to steal from. No one cares that you did it and the world still exists for you to throw lavish parties in. Also they tend to have nice stuff.

Not in my brother's world. We just had a fight with 8 orcs (two of them archers) with our level 2 group. (Deadly encounter; the DMG math is OK on this one. ). We won, though one of our party fell during the fight, and numerous were wounded. (Healing to restore our dwarf). Loot: 30 coppers, 10 silver, two long bows in good condition, some arrows, and a few of the great axes are in good enough condition if we think we can sell them somewhere. (We are caravan guards, so we can load all of that stuff onto one of the wagons). Whether or not we can get much money from the loot (half PHB price at best) we are still being careful with our few gold pieces.

Old school feel, to be sure.

[Unoriginal]

Not in my brother's world. We just had a fight with 8 orcs (two of them archers) with our level 2 group. (Deadly encounter; the DMG math is OK on this one. ). We won, though one of our party fell during the fight, and numerous were wounded. (Healing to restore our dwarf). Loot: 30 coppers, 10 silver, two long bows in good condition, some arrows, and a few of the great axes are in good enough condition if we think we can sell them somewhere. (We are caravan guards, so we can load all of that stuff onto one of the wagons). Whether or not we can get much money from the loot (half PHB price at best) we are still being careful with our few gold pieces.

Old school feel, to be sure.

I doubt those 8 orcs were trying to end the world, though.

Though who know, maybe they were working on developing a bigger board with a nail in it, and eventually they were going to make a board with a nail in it so big it would destroy everyone.

[Chaosmancer]

In my case, I've got a lot of young players and they just aren't interested in loot and treasure as much. Oh sure, it's a nice bonus to get a few hundred gold for your troubles and maybe a few magical weapons, but they can get that expeirence anywhere really.

They want me to tell an interesting story and create challenges for them to overcome.

It is really a table by table experience. Recently, in the game I'm playing online, we're doing a barely connected series of combats. We've kind of stopped caring about treasure because we are on an island outside of time and space and there are zero markets anywhere (why are people carrying around piles of gold then? No idea). But despite not looting as much recently we're still keeping close track of every copper we have, and I've always been the guy who writes out every item he's carrying just in case.

[PhoenixPhyre]

In my case, I've got a lot of young players and they just aren't interested in loot and treasure as much. Oh sure, it's a nice bonus to get a few hundred gold for your troubles and maybe a few magical weapons, but they can get that expeirence anywhere really.

They want me to tell an interesting story and create challenges for them to overcome.

This is my experience--they routinely choose the diplomatic route (even if that was never planned to be an option) or play with trickery. The only murdering that goes on is people who show themselves beyond help:

* the cult engaging in human sacrifice and forced cannibalism
* the druid/scientist with a dragon fetish who was working on a way to forcibly convert captured women into dragonborn-esque (except with bigger boobs) harem dwellers (the party was a couple girls. They murdered him with extreme prejudice).
* etc.

And loot, per se, is not a draw. They care about things they can use, but mostly want to experience a world. To be able to change things. To portray a character in a fantastic setting. Theme is more important than anything for most of them, and power is of minimal importance.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Have you ever seen a room my party hasn't looted? I didn't think so...I even take the candlesticks bruh. No tellin' when they'll be needed.

We move through the world like a great devourer, leaving behind empty cubes of space with various color palettes.

[KorvinStarmast]

I doubt those 8 orcs were trying to end the world, though.

Tier 1 adventures are not intended to be world saving. We are more or less "apprentice" adventurers. (The dwarf is now level 3, Champion). What they were trying to do (the whole orcish presence in this valley) was defile a temple of a good deity by spilling innocent blood (two teenagers they'd kidnapped, one male and one female). That encounter and one other we had put them on the run ... or at least slowed their efforts.

My response was mostly to " Also they tend to have nice stuff." The orcs didn't have nice stuff, but we may get a little profit from that pair of encounters.

[Unoriginal]

Tier 1 adventures are not intended to be world saving. We are more or less "apprentice" adventurers. (The dwarf is now level 3, Champion). What they were trying to do (the whole orcish presence in this valley) was defile a temple of a good deity by spilling innocent blood (two teenagers they'd kidnapped, one male and one female). That encounter and one other we had put them on the run ... or at least slowed their efforts.

My response was mostly to " Also they tend to have nice stuff." The orcs didn't have nice stuff, but we may get a little profit from that pair of encounters.

Yes, the orcs facing tier 1 adventurers didn't have nice stuff, but DeadMech said: "Dead villains who were trying to end the world are the best people to steal from. [...] Also they tend to have nice stuff."

So the "they" in "they tend to have nice stuff" applied to villains who were trying to end the world, before dying.

DeadMech was saying that facing world-threatening bad guys payed better, as justification why someone interested in loot would face them.

My point was that since that small group of orcs weren't world-ending threats, they didn't fit the criteria that was being discussed.


On the topic of making profit out of this encounter: you should see if there is any priest of that good deity (or even another good deity) in the next community you reach. If you manage to convince them that your story is true, you could get additional reward. Stopping the defilement of a temple dedicated to a good deity is serious business, after all.

[Laserlight]

In our two groups, the 20-30 year olds generally don't loot much, although a couple of them will collect skulls or such as trophies. The 45 yo does loot. I'm 55 (and started with AD&D); I generally make sure the party loots, although I personally usually focus on magic items, plus letters maps, and other information.
Caveat: telling two INT6 characters to "loot aggressively" didn't turn out well when they ran into a trapped chest. A crowbar is not always an adequate substitute for a lockpick.

[Kane0]

A crowbar is not always an adequate substitute for a lockpick.

You're doing it wrong. If application of force does not result in the desired effect, you have not used enough force.

[Temperjoke]

I think some of the problem is that DMs don't let things build. Whether it's because they're worried about availability, or conflicting schedules, all sessions tend to be plot-relevant as opposed to the occasional side trip loot crawl, just because they're worried about not having everybody available during more important sessions.

[War_lord]

Most of the people who were into simplistic "kill monsters to get loot, which you then sell to get better weapons to kill bigger monsters to get better loot to kill bigger monsters" crowd moved onto Computer Games which do that loop far better then any human DM could.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Most of the people who were into simplistic "kill monsters to get loot, which you then sell to get better weapons to kill bigger monsters to get better loot to kill bigger monsters" crowd moved onto Computer Games which do that loop far better then any human DM could.

And with much better graphics. I don't do loot runs because I don't have players that want to do them. Simple as that.

[Luccan]

For a lot of people (nowadays, at least) "get loot" isn't a big draw for long term gaming. Even as a collection of short adventures and one shots with varied characters and levels, I can easily see myself growing bored with simply dungeon diving for the sake of cash. Even if I'm playing a loot-driven mercenary, I don't want that to be the only focus of the game. I'd guess a lot of people feel similarly (though I'll note it always brings me pain when a party has the time and doesn't loot enemies. Or when DMs don't plan on PCs looting the bad guys for some reason).

[Kane0]

Mayhap runing around endlessly for money hits a bit too close to home for the average player, who would be playing for the sense of fantasy.

[Pelle]

I don't really understand the link between Save the World games and murder. In the last long Save the World game I ran, the players were very good at avoiding combat. It's impossible to save the world if you are dead, so why risk combat unnecessarily?

To accomodate our irregular sessions and big player crowd with uneven participation, I suggested to run a megadungeon game next time. Fixed home base, only characters of players present, exploring where they want and returning home at the end of the session. The response was "why should our characters care to do that, just to get loot??"