Is V really repentant?

[zimmerwald1915]

See, this is why we need to have campaigns where you don't fight monsters; but fight, I don't know, a multicellular colony of malaria acting as a single organism the size of a grisly grizzly bear. Except there are loads of those organisms and they're not sentient, sapient, or really more complicated than a slime mold.

Wait, no, that's still killing.

Giant. Bacteriophages. Yeah, that's where it's at.

Has someone been marathoning Voyager? Be honest.

[Anarion]

Okay, then we need to fight robots.

Lasers and mechanical explosions. That's certainly the way children's programming has handled it for years.

Not sure that really solves our current issue though, which has to do with how different people view the idea of repentance. I think it varies person to person whether repentance has to do with how someone feels now, or whether it requires somehow making amends for past deeds (and could thus be impossible for the most heinous acts.)

[zimmerwald1915]

Not sure that really solves our current issue though, which has to do with how different people view the idea of repentance. I think it varies person to person whether repentance has to do with how someone feels now, or whether it requires somehow making amends for past deeds (and could thus be impossible for the most heinous acts.)

How does repentance refer to anything other than how someone feels? The action of repenting lies in repudiating one's previous actions and attitudes. It is an internal process. Making amends, asking forgiveness, seeking atonement and making restitution are things someone might do after repenting, they are part of atonement, and readers might point to that as evidence of repentance, but they are not part of repentance itself.

What repentance is really shouldn't be up for debate. What is up for debate - and what is not the subject of this thread - is whether repentance is enough to inspire forgiveness. That is ultimately a judgment every character and reader must make for themselves.

[Amphiox]

Sometimes killing is necessary. Sometimes killing is the least bad of many bad options. Sometimes killing a sentient creature is necessary, and/or the least bad of many bad options.

It is not a problem to depict killing, even of sentients, per se. That alone is simply a depiction of a "factual" occurence, within the parameters of the fictional world.

The thing that is important is the choice that leads to the killing. The decision to kill. The weighing of the options. The conclusion of necessity. The evaluation of more bad versus less bad.

The problem lies when this choice is depicted as trivial and without consequence.

Because the choice is not trivial. It is among the most profound choice any free-willed being can make. The consequences are far-reaching. It should not be glossed over as merely a prelude to some exciting action.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Viruses are alive. They're the simplest possible forms of life, but they are truly alive.

There is not an agreed-upon definition of "life". Many of the disagreements among biologists come down to whether or not viruses count as a life form.

(I say "no", because I think "made of cells" should be part of the definition, and they aren't.)

[Rodin]

Okay, then we need to fight robots.

I'm not so sure....

Does this unit have a soul?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Has someone been marathoning Voyager? Be honest.

Sorry my friend, I haven't (is it okay for me to call you my friend).

Do you recommend it?

[zimmerwald1915]

Sorry my friend, I haven't (is it okay for me to call you my friend).

Go right ahead

Do you recommend it?

Not really. It's just that there's an episode where Janeway and the Doctor fight off a colony of giant bacteriophages, and it matched so closely the description you gave of the Ultimate Politically Correct Action Sequence that I couldn't help but be amused.

[Sir_Leorik]

Okay, then we need to fight robots.

Lasers and mechanical explosions. That's certainly the way children's programming has handled it for years.

Which led to "The Transformers" being the most realistic children's cartoon of the '80's. The Autobots and the Decepticons suffer mass casualties, their surgical procedures are as gripping as anything this side of "M*A*S*H*", and we see their troops suffering from lack of adequate supplies. Contrast that with "G.I. Joe" ("Duke's... in a coma!"), "He-Man and The Masters of the Universe" (Fun fact: He-Man always uses the flat of his blade!) or "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" (1987) (Leonardo is the least effective Turtle... unless he's fighting killer robots!).

[TheWatcher]

I agree with your point here. I think the definitional argument is just useful shorthand for arguing with the guy saying that what regular D&D parties do is genocide and isn't wrong.

Also, as far as the cosmology goes, I would be surprised if the Giant ever shows us V's ultimate fate on camera. We certainly won't get the kind of review that Roy got. So, probably it will be a subjective question of how each individual reader feels about the character when the story is over.

Edit: TheWatcher, how come you quoted me? Your post has nothing to do with my earlier post.

Re-reading to figure that out; maybe I edited? I thought I was quoting Jake Spoon, but maybe I misclicked? If I am a little sporatic; on pain killers due to recent impact with a car in a cross-walk. >_<; Sorry! Will rego over my posts today and see what the hell I was typing yesterday.

After Re-reading;
It was loosely related.

I was trying (and I guess failing) to mention that I believed the Azurites attacks MAY (we have no way of knowing the actual past interactions between Azurites and Red Cloak's Goblin village(s)) ... and no way to know how far in the past those attacks took place.. could easily be child perception of events, etc. We do not know)

... are far more easily justifiable (easily justifiable, not necessarily justified) then V's wholesale slaughter of hundreds (or thousands) of dragons that were not even aware of that black dragon's existance.. hense V's remorse.

We cannot judge the truth, or baseness of the experiences of a goblin against the soldiers from Azure City's past without more information.

While I doubt Red Cloak is lying; I don't think we have all the information (as with most things in Order of the Stick.) Although I have not read the pre-quil books on OOTS yet~

Note to self; Wow. I ramble even when I am lucid.

[mhsmith]

Yes, she is. V broke down sobbing when she realised that Familicide didn't just kill off Evil Black Dragons (an act that she might have been kidding herself was just about excusable, as it could have saved innocent lives and was in defence of family) but also Neutral and Good beings, and then also considered that perhaps some of the dragons she killed weren't all utterly Evil and dangerous to innocent people.

V never committed genocide, in that she did not try to kill off all Black Dragons, but merely the family of the ABD who threatened her own family. Her actions were Evil, sure, but they weren't genocide, and she had some pretty damn good extenuating circumstances. Redemption, then, is within her reach.

Actually...

Given your kind's low rate of reproduction, I estimate that I have eliminated approximately one-quarter of the black dragons on the planet.

So yeah, I'd say that certainly counts.

[The Giant]

And what is the difference between preemptive (since they are mostly evil) decimation of dragons by V different from preemptive genocide of goblins by Azurites?

None. There is no difference. Except narratively, because one was a main character taking an action as part of the primary story while the other was a backstory relating to tertiary characters. Thus the repercussions of one is of key importance to the plot while the other is a background issue, at best.

I never said "genocide is Good".
First, it is not "good", it is "not considered Evil by higher powers".

Yes, it is.

Thirdly, isn't genocide a thing that all adventurers do? Decimating creatures to take their loot?

"Genocide" does not mean "a lot of killing." It has a specific meaning. Look it up, if you must. Adventurers do not commit genocide, generally speaking.

There is no reason to assume that the fate, or the Twelve Gods, or any other higher power considers preemptive genocide of enemies an evil act.

It is. It is an evil act. Always. Without exception. Period. Genocide is always evil, guys.

[The Giant]

And the rest is pretty deep into the Morally Justified zone, so…Thread locked.