Star Wars Rebels: Season Two

[Cikomyr]

Then you're conceding the point, because that's all the training he ever got. When he went back to Dagobah in Return of the Jedi, Yoda already lay dying.

Not conceding anything. Like its been said, Luke obviously honed his skills and abilities following his defeat at Vader's hands.

Luke is obviously much more assured of his abilities in Jedi than anytime before. He completely dropped the use of a blaster, and relied entirely on his Jedi ways to achieving his tasks and challenge.

Compare to the young rash hothead who rushed toward an obvious trap, and whose first instinct was to grasp his blaster when confronted by Stormtroopers. Luke has trained his feelings in the Force, sure. Yoda's training allowed him to feel it fully, but hardly to master it.

[Darth Credence]

Not conceding anything. Like its been said, Luke obviously honed his skills and abilities following his defeat at Vader's hands.

Luke is obviously much more assured of his abilities in Jedi than anytime before. He completely dropped the use of a blaster, and relied entirely on his Jedi ways to achieving his tasks and challenge.

Compare to the young rash hothead who rushed toward an obvious trap, and whose first instinct was to grasp his blaster when confronted by Stormtroopers. Luke has trained his feelings in the Force, sure. Yoda's training allowed him to feel it fully, but hardly to master it.

Small nitpick, but he didn't completely abandon blasters. He pulled one into his hand in Jabba's palace and it sure looked like he was going to use it.

The current canon is actually spelling out much more of his training. He has visited Obi Wan's old place on Tatooine and found his journal and has been training from that.

[Cikomyr]

Small nitpick, but he didn't completely abandon blasters. He pulled one into his hand in Jabba's palace and it sure looked like he was going to use it.

The current canon is actually spelling out much more of his training. He has visited Obi Wan's old place on Tatooine and found his journal and has been training from that.

Well.. I certainly disagree wholeheartily with that sentiment. What would have it accomplished? Han, Leia, Chewie and the droids were still prisonners inside Jabba's palace.

I think the entire point was to lull Jabba into a false sense of security. Make him believe the entire "i shall destroy you" was a bluff once it was made clear Jabba wouldnt agree to negociation. A false attempt at a Hail Mary so Jabba would feel enough in control to leave his palace, and the security therein.

[Darth Credence]

I agree that it was part of a ploy to get Jabba to become complacent and to maneuver everything into position. We have to assume that Luke had some Force aided knowledge of what would happen for that whole plan to work, so that makes sense.

But that means that him using a blaster was part of a plan he made. So he had not completely dropped the use of blasters. As I said, it was a small nitpick.

[Cikomyr]

But he stopped carrying one around. He stopped relying on it being even a basic mean of defense.

He did not suddenly developped a class restriction that says he cant use blasters or loses his class features. They have became just a part of his environment he can use to his advantage, not a part of himself.

I dont think his plan was "ill grab a blaster at the first opportunity", it was more " i will use any opening i see to pull off my failed attack". The opening just happened to be the blaster of a guard who wasnt paying attention.

Otherwise, you could nitpick by claiming Luke used the barge's own laser canons on itself. Or that he used the speeder bike's canons in his pursuit.

A Jedi will use his environment to his advantage, but will only rely on his lightsaber.

[Renegade Paladin]

Not conceding anything. Like its been said, Luke obviously honed his skills and abilities following his defeat at Vader's hands.

Not with Yoda, though. Remember what it is you're disputing.

[Cikomyr]

Not with Yoda, though. Remember what it is you're disputing.

...no. Go back to the original of this specific discussion. I was arguing why Luke didnt go all Episode 1 on the Stormtroopers in Cloud City, but then could stand up against Jabba's thugs in Jedi.

I mean, come on. What are you even arguing?

[Renegade Paladin]

...no. Go back to the original of this specific discussion. I was arguing why Luke didnt go all Episode 1 on the Stormtroopers in Cloud City, but then could stand up against Jabba's thugs in Jedi.

I mean, come on. What are you even arguing?

That Ezra should not be learning more from a half-trained Padawan than Luke did from Yoda. The thing I said at the outset. Luke learning things not from Yoda is not Luke learning things from Yoda.

Edit: To clarify, we don't know the exact time scale the show operates on, but it can't have been more than a few months since Ezra took up with the Ghost crew. In that time, he's had part time training from someone not fully trained himself. Luke went to Dagobah, trained full time with the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order (again for an indeterminate period of time), and came out far, far behind where Ezra is in skill. That was my original point, as you may recall:

I dunno, we never see Luke Skywalker taking out entire hallways full of stormtroopers. Has Ezra really learned more from a half-trained padawan in a few months than Luke did from Yoda?

You then proceeded to make my point for me. I don't see where the confusion is.

[Darth Credence]

But he stopped carrying one around. He stopped relying on it being even a basic mean of defense.

He did not suddenly developped a class restriction that says he cant use blasters or loses his class features. They have became just a part of his environment he can use to his advantage, not a part of himself.

I dont think his plan was "ill grab a blaster at the first opportunity", it was more " i will use any opening i see to pull off my failed attack". The opening just happened to be the blaster of a guard who wasnt paying attention.

Otherwise, you could nitpick by claiming Luke used the barge's own laser canons on itself. Or that he used the speeder bike's canons in his pursuit.

A Jedi will use his environment to his advantage, but will only rely on his lightsaber.

Those would have been my next two nitpicks. You said abandoned blasters, not stopped relying on them. But since I agree with your overall point, I will concede the point.

That Ezra should not be learning more from a half-trained Padawan than Luke did from Yoda. The thing I said at the outset. Luke learning things not from Yoda is not Luke learning things from Yoda.

Edit: To clarify, we don't know the exact time scale the show operates on, but it can't have been more than a few months since Ezra took up with the Ghost crew. In that time, he's had part time training from someone not fully trained himself. Luke went to Dagobah, trained full time with the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order (again for an indeterminate period of time), and came out far, far behind where Ezra is in skill. That was my original point, as you may recall:

You then proceeded to make my point for me. I don't see where the confusion is.

Ezra has been with the Ghost for more than a year at this point. It was mentioned in one of the recent episodes how long he had been around, IIRC.

I think that we are looking at Luke wrong here. I don't think he failed to attack the Stormtroopers because he couldn't do anything. I think he was focused on getting to Vader, and din't want to waste time with anything else. He went into Cloud City thinking he would eliminate Vader. You can get that from the movie alone - telling Yoda that he had learned so much since his failure at the cave can easily be read as he learned enough he wouldn't fail against Vader. He tries to sneak his way through Cloud City, and stops to fight Vader as soon as he finds him. If he thinks he can take Vader, surely he thinks he could have taken a half dozen troopers, but that wasn't what he wanted to do. Current canon supports this even more - he has already taken multiple runs at Vader before training with Yoda, so after training he probably thinks he can succeed.

[Cikomyr]

Plus, Yoda clearly stated that Luke was damned old.

That meant he had to unlearn past precepts he held as true for a lot longer than Ezra. And its probably something that held him back a lot during his training time with Yoda.

Luke had much more material entanglements than Ezra. He was the Hero Captain of the Rebellion. The Jedi on the Recruiting Poster. Thus had to absorb material limitation on his self to serve that role, and this is what probably held him back.

Probably also why its often assumed Luke spent the entirety of the Empire-Jedi time gap away from the Rebellion. These material entanglements were holding back his training.

[Cikomyr]

If he thinks he can take Vader, surely he thinks he could have taken a half dozen troopers, but that wasn't what he wanted to do. Current canon supports this even more - he has already taken multiple runs at Vader before training with Yoda, so after training he probably thinks he can succeed.

Sorry for the double post, but I just realized your wrote that and.it picked my.interest.

Where was that said?!

[dancrilis]

Sorry for the double post, but I just realized your wrote that and.it picked my.interest.

Where was that said?!

Multiple is accurate, but might imply more than have occurred - but the current comic books (after the acquisition by Disney) are canon, and Luke has encountered Vader in them.

[Cikomyr]

Multiple is accurate, but might imply more than have occurred - but the current comic books (after the acquisition by Disney) are canon, and Luke has encountered Vader in them.

I see.. And Vader hasnt had the chance to make the Big Reveal?

[Renegade Paladin]

I admit I haven't been closely following the comics, but in the one instance I have read their confrontation was via starfighter, ending with Luke ramming Vader and causing him to crash on a Rebel-held world, which he proceeded to single-handedly conquer.

[Cikomyr]

I admit I haven't been closely following the comics, but in the one instance I have read their confrontation was via starfighter, ending with Luke ramming Vader and causing him to crash on a Rebel-held world, which he proceeded to single-handedly conquer.

.... 100% in character

"Aaah ****. Oh well, might as well reconquer the whole place myself. When the Force gives your lemons..."

Edit: for the record. I love that Rebels and the new canon has completely destroyed the theory that floated around that Vader's cybernetisation de-powered him.

This aint Shadowrun. Vader always has been a mega powerful villain. The end

[Darth Credence]

The first time thus far was the end of Star Wars #1 beginning of #2 - Vader didn't know who he is yet, so no reveal would have happened. But that is when he first figures it out, as he recognizes his old lightsaber.

He goes back for more in issue #3, although that could be considered the same incident. He jumps on a speeder bike and goes in to attack Vader and attempt to give cover for the others to get out. He loses again.

His crash into Vader in the Vader Down cross over is the most recent. The way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised if we get another encounter in during this crossover.

[lt_murgen]

.... 100% in character

"Aaah ****. Oh well, might as well reconquer the whole place myself. When the Force gives your lemons..."

Edit: for the record. I love that Rebels and the new canon has completely destroyed the theory that floated around that Vader's cybernetisation de-powered him.

This aint Shadowrun. Vader always has been a mega powerful villain. The end

It is too bad "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader" isn't canon anymore. It tells about how he had to change his fighting style to match his new body. He lost some speed and agility but gained a huge bonus to strength.

[Cikomyr]

It is too bad "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader" isn't canon anymore. It tells about how he had to change his fighting style to match his new body. He lost some speed and agility but gained a huge bonus to strength.

Funny. I literally just said in another forum today:

The old EU (what is basically called Legends) may not be canon anymore. But it certainly serve as heavy inspiration to the new canon. The Interdictor Cruiser being a foremost recent example.

So, just because something existed in the old canon can still be relevant in term.of characterizarion. Unless you see something that directly contradicts Legends' characterization or worldbuilding, then its better to use it when thinking about the universe.

In your example, i think it 100% fits current canon. Vader is always proven to be one juggernaut of strenght and combat skills. He uses strenght, stamina and smarts to outfight his faster opponents. He could overpower both Luke and Kanan (both using 2-handed styles) with a single hand.

Why? Because its funnier that way.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Funny. I literally just said in another forum today:

The old EU (what is basically called Legends) may not be canon anymore. But it certainly serve as heavy inspiration to the new canon. The Interdictor Cruiser being a foremost recent example.

So, just because something existed in the old canon can still be relevant in term.of characterizarion. Unless you see something that directly contradicts Legends' characterization or worldbuilding, then its better to use it when thinking about the universe.

In your example, i think it 100% fits current canon. Vader is always proven to be one juggernaut of strenght and combat skills. He uses strenght, stamina and smarts to outfight his faster opponents. He could overpower both Luke and Kanan (both using 2-handed styles) with a single hand.

Why? Because its funnier that way.

The old EU is pretty much canon, but I wouldn't...assume something from Legends' is anon just because it hasn't been directly contradicted just yet. The policy of the new Star Wars Universe seems to be doing entirely its own thing but has and does, on occasion, cherry pick things from the EU that fit their universe well or are just awesome. I guess what I mean is the opposite of what you meant, don't assume its canon until it is referenced or used in some way.

Honestly it works better cause it lets Disney cherry pick the better elements of the EU while getting rid of the dross because for as many Thrawn Trilogys and Clone Wars series, there's ten times as much mediocre to terrible material that doesn't fit or directly contradicts other elements of it.

[Reddish Mage]

I don't get how Vader could beat both Luke and came I don't get how Vader could beat both Luke and Kanan with one hand, given that Luke actually did beat Vader single-handedly.

[Renegade Paladin]

I don't get how Vader could beat both Luke and came I don't get how Vader could beat both Luke and Kanan with one hand, given that Luke actually did beat Vader single-handedly.

He did, though, in Cloud City. And he wasn't talking specifically about winning the fight, but rather overpowering them. In his duel with Kanan, he was holding his lightsaber in one hand while Kanan had both hands on his and was trying to drive him back - and failing to even move the lightsaber.

[Cikomyr]

Pretty much what i meant. Indeed. Vader pushed back with a single hand when both Luke and Kanan put their entire strenght into the strike.

In fact, Vader uses 2 hands when he needs to move faster.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, the season started back up last night.

Spoiler

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Well, we're left to wonder what happened to the rest of Leia's crew. Also those walkers are surprisingly tough, to take multiple torpedo hits and keep going.

[lt_murgen]

Well, the season started back up last night.

Spoiler

Show

Well, we're left to wonder what happened to the rest of Leia's crew. Also those walkers are surprisingly tough, to take multiple torpedo hits and keep going.

Spoiler: tough puppies

Show

I think this is an attempt to clear up a common ESB complaint- why didn't the rebels use their x-wings against the AT-ATs on hoth? Each one is shown taking a minimum of 4 proton torpedo hits. I am assuming torpedoes, because they are shown moving fairly slowly compared to concussion missiles which I think we saw in season 1. They are showing that unless you strike directly at the neck, they are hard to damage.

[Mando Knight]

Spoiler: Walkers

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The other thing about Hoth is that the Rebels needed their X-Wings ready for escorting the transports. By sending them against the walkers, they risk having their starfighters get shot down there (the AT-ATs do pick off some of the speeders at Hoth, and even the vaunted prodigy flyboy and Death Star killer Luke Skywalker gets shot down) and then they have fewer ready for escape, while the speeders are relatively disposable for defense and the pilots can potentially survive a crash to get into their fighters.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, in one of the X-Wing novels (which I know are no longer canon, but still), I believe Starfighters of Adumar, Rogue Squadron has to deal with some AT-ATs while flying X-wings, and after they do it the hard way with laser cannons (which worked, albeit with difficulty; starfighters obviously carry more powerful weaponry than airspeeders), Wes Janson asked Wedge why they didn't just give the walkers a torpedo each and be done with it (the answer being that they might need their torpedoes later). So apparently in the new canon they've decided to give them an upgrade.

[Emperordaniel]

Is it bad that I actually kind of felt bad for that Imperial officer by the end?

[russdm]

Well, in one of the X-Wing novels (which I know are no longer canon, but still), I believe Starfighters of Adumar, Rogue Squadron has to deal with some AT-ATs while flying X-wings, and after they do it the hard way with laser cannons (which worked, albeit with difficulty; starfighters obviously carry more powerful weaponry than airspeeders), Wes Janson asked Wedge why they didn't just give the walkers a torpedo each and be done with it (the answer being that they might need their torpedoes later). So apparently in the new canon they've decided to give them an upgrade.

Actually happens in Isard's Revenge. Starfighters of Adumar only features 4 of the Rogue characters: Wedge, Tycho, Hobbie, Wes. It is an awesome read though.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hell, you're right; looking at my bookshelf it's even the cover art. My mistake.

[lt_murgen]

Is it bad that I actually kind of felt bad for that Imperial officer by the end?

No. I felt bad for him too. Rebels is a few years before ANH, which puts that Leia squarely in her mid-teen years. And as many a parent knows, there are few things more furious, ill-tempered, and uncompromising than a teen girl who is convinced she is right.