Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

[Another_Poet]

"If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process"

Ah, I apologize then, I thought it was less well defined than that.

OK, now you have a Balor who is alone on the Astral plane. Once you catch up with him there, how do you defeat him?

And agreed with Malakar - 1 out of 4 party members surviving = WIN.

[Swordguy]

Technical question: when you say that 4th level or higher scrolls cannot be used because "they cannot be cast that quickly", what about using them outside of combat? Or is it that scrolls of 4+ level spells simply don't exist in the world in question?

[awa]

so we have to actually kill it not get rid of it?

[Boci]

If I read it right, LA actually affects your PB in E6, not your level. You're kind of modifying the rules to make it harder for the party.

Yeah, it just drops your PB to a pitiful 10, but you're still level 6. It was probably just a mistake on Malakar's behalf.

What is the situation with custom gear?

[crazedloon]

improved krau sigil, earth spell gives you effective spells of 2 levels higher than you can cast so at level 5 that gives you "5th" level spells. Extra slot feat gives you an extra spell slot of up to 1 level lower than you highest level spell (4th level slot) With the new slot your highest level slot is now 6 (2 higher than 4) repeat until you have 10th level slots (7 of your feats) you now have 28 feats to spend on spells you need.

Can you kill a balor with 9th level spells in a normal game? how about 28 9th level spells?

all you need is improved
krau sigil
earth sense
highten spell

to get the "combo" working

[dextercorvia]

improved krau sigil, earth spell gives you effective spells of 2 levels higher than you can cast so at level 5 that gives you "5th" level spells. Extra slot feat gives you an extra spell slot of up to 1 level lower than you highest level spell (4th level slot) With the new slot your highest level slot is now 6 (2 higher than 4) repeat until you have 10th level slots (7 of your feats) you now have 28 feats to spend on spells you need.

Can you kill a balor with 9th level spells in a normal game? how about 28 9th level spells?

all you need is improved
krau sigil
earth sense
highten spell

to get the "combo" working

You sir have been Wiz'd.

[Another_Poet]

If I read it right, LA actually affects your PB in E6, not your level. You're kind of modifying the rules to make it harder for the party.

I do realise that, but the problem is that in this thought exercise the normal E6 LA rules would just be abused to allow ECL 12 builds (6 levels of LA bought off with point buy, plus 6 actual levels). When you're giving someone 35 bonus feats they can spend a bunch on the E6 ability feats and offset the point buy.

In order to limit cheese, LA is counted against ECL6 as per the normal rules.

ap

Note to all: I haven't seen many 4 member parties posted yet though I have seen a lot of setups that basically involve 1 uber character and presumably the other 3 ppl could be any chumps at all. That is rules legal, but it will take me a while to read through and eval them. Your odds will be better if you describe your tactics for dealing with the Balor's abilities - not just the build. Assuming I can access descriptions of all your feats/classes/abilities (or that I have time to compare them to the Balor's abilities) is a big assumption.

re. custom gear: if you can afford it and make it, and it doesn't use 4th level or higher spells, go for it. For every 5000 XP you spend you lose a bonus feat. If you need to include spells 4th level or higher you cannot make it yourself and it costs 20x the list price.

re. scrolls - no scrolls 4th level or higher, sorries.

[Glimbur]

Question: Is it considered defeating the Balor if I can only kill him if my attack roll doesn't roll a 1? I don't know how to get around rolling a one in only 6 levels.

Luck feats from Complete Scoundrel can let you re-roll. Fortuitous Strike, for example, lets you reroll an attack roll. You might have to burn many feats to get enough rerolls to be really useful, but it's an option.

Or, dip cleric for the Luck domain.

[Boci]

I do realise that, but the problem is that in this thought exercise the normal E6 LA rules would just be abused to allow ECL 12 builds (6 levels of LA boguth off with point buy, plus 6 actual levels). When you're giving someone 35 bonus feats they can spend a bunch on the E6 ability feats and offset the point buy.

In order to limit cheese, LA is counted against ECL6 as per the normal rules.

ap

Fair enough I guess. What about custom items?

[Milskidasith]

I do realise that, but the problem is that in this thought exercise the normal E6 LA rules would just be abused to allow ECL 12 builds (6 levels of LA boguth off with point buy, plus 6 actual levels). When you're giving someone 35 bonus feats they can spend a bunch on the E6 ability feats and offset the point buy.

In order to limit cheese, LA is counted against ECL6 as per the normal rules.

ap

Note to all: I haven't seen many 4 member parties posted yet though I have seen a lot of setups that basically involve 1 uber character and presumably the other 3 ppl could be any chumps at all. That is rules legal, but it will take me a while to read through and eval them. Your odds will be better if you describe your tactics for dealing with the Balor's abilities - not just the build. Assuming I can access descriptions of all your feats/classes/abilities (or that I have time to compare them to the Baloir's abilities) is a big assumption.

You are now no longer asking for an E6 character, however. Also, you can only go up to LA +4 in E6, AFAIK.

[crazedloon]

You sir have been Wiz'd.

touche sir but I shall add 23 orange ioun stones to the build to allow you to have high enough caster level to truly abuse those spells....

as for actual groups you have the above stated combo (or mine) and 1 cleric, 1 wizard, 1 druid, 1 rogue. The cleric and druid buff to be tanks/healers the wizard has a bunch of control/SoD/SoS and the rogue is there to get through the traps on the way to the balor

[Another_Poet]

You are now no longer asking for an E6 character, however. Also, you can only go up to LA +4 in E6, AFAIK.

You're saying that denying an ECL 10 character is no longer E6.

That's like saying that denying divine metamagic nightsticks is no longer D&D.

I house ruled out one small thing that can be used to undermine the whole concept of the game. That is just good policy for a contest like this.

That said, I do see your point. But just think - the winner gets to say that their winning team was even weaker than what E6 normally allows. That proves they are truly Hamsters, worthy of 200 words of praise and a fictional apotheosis.

re. custom items see my prev post.

ap

[dextercorvia]

touche sir but I shall add 23 orange ioun stones to the build to allow you to have high enough caster level to truly abuse those spells....

as for actual groups you have the above stated combo (or mine) and 1 cleric, 1 wizard, 1 druid, 1 rogue. The cleric and druid buff to be tanks/healers the wizard has a bunch of control/SoD/SoS and the rogue is there to get through the traps on the way to the balor

Each of your Ioun Stones costs 600K per the original post.

Edit: To AP: I'm sure you wouldn't have picked my duo anyway, but I'm not interested in playing it out. I enjoy the though exercise, but my tactical skills are weak. If anyone else (who wants to compete) is interested in using either or both of my builds on their team, they have my blessing.

[Lhurgyof]

Well, if the Balor were named He Man, and one character just happened to be a Bone Human named Skeletor...

Spoiler

Show

[crazedloon]

Each of your Ioun Stones costs 600K per the original post.

except not as they do not require spells of higher than 4th level just a caster level of 12

[dextercorvia]

except not as they do not require spells of higher than 4th level just a caster level of 12

My turn to misread, then. But, wouldn't that make them impossible to find, since they state that the creator must be 12th level?

AP -- What is the ruling on this?

[Malakar]

1) If LA is a PB decrease, then maybe that, I'm not that familiar with the rules of e6. I am somewhat leery of the idea that you pay for LA by decreasing your stats, but the LA increases them back up, and gives more besides. Anything that is a net gain... Not exactly on my list of well balanced trades.

2) Portable Hole + Bag of Holding will not be considered a win, because in this particular circumstance (Aside from the fact that he can just fly around on the Astral till he finds a portal to the Prime, then immediately teleport to wherever he was when you bagged him) it was in reference to e6 WLD, and since the WLD is supposed to be a prison for amongst other things, said balor, helping him to escape his prison will not count for the purposes of this challenge.

[Wings of Peace]

How are specialized requirements for prestige classes handled? Tainted Scholar for example can be hit after level 3 assuming enough Taint.

[Boci]

16 "roll with it"s will make sure you are immune to the damage the balor can deal.

As for spell like abilities:

blasphemy (DC 25), - be evil
dominate monster (DC 27), - mind blank
greater dispel magic,– spell immunity
insanity (DC 25), - mind blank
power word stun, - mind blank
telekinesis (DC 23), - spell immunity
unholy aura (DC 26); - be evil (still a buff though)
1/day—fire storm (DC 26), - fire soul
1/day - implosion (DC 27) – spell immunity

So all you need is a way to get spell immunity and mind blank for that one encounter. Can that be done with these rules? And for 4th level spells, what if a party member was an artificer?

[dextercorvia]

How are specialized requirements for prestige classes handled? Tainted Scholar for example can be hit after level 3 assuming enough Taint.

This post is made of Awesome. What can't Tainted Scholar do?

[Wings of Peace]

This post is made of Awesome. What can't Tainted Scholar do?

Can I have the evil level 5 Necropolitan Wizard on the team kill the other three members in meticulously vicious manners to raise his Taint score? Technically it is still a traditional party at the start, three members are just spared dying at the hands of the Balor.

[Malakar]

I may have different opinions about this than other people, but I consider DC 2000 saves roughly in the same general area as Pun Pun. That area being "Good for you, so what."

Although, in this specific case, not sure that Tainted Scholar would auto win by himself.

Needs to win init, and then needs to follow up with a save spell, but going through the PHB (I'm sure we can find something in the SpC though):

Slow: You still die.
Hold Person: Not Humanoid.
Deep Slumber: More than 10HD.
Stinking Cloud: 90ft Fly speed still allows escape.

So yeah, even though I think beating it with Tainted Scholar is actually less impressive than beating it with a level 13 party, I'm not even sure it does it on it's own.

[Another_Poet]

SUBMISSIONS SO FAR:

Starbuck II's Spellward Sniper + 3 Chumps
awaiting team details

Lhurgyof's Humorously Named Four
DEAD. Give details on equipment and tactics if this is a serious submission.

Dextercorvia's "Poor Man's Lucubration 9ths" plus "Krau Sigil Cleric/Wiz" plus two chumps
Status: Pending; details on tactics would be appreciated
Note to Dexter: No actual fight is needed to win; you just need to convince me.

aje8's Wraithstrike Nova plus 3 chumps
Status: Pending; convince me you can survive several rounds and repeat your nova, plus survive the death throes.

Awa's Chump with Astral Bomb Skellies, plus three more chumps
Points for Cleverness But the only member of your party still in combat with the Balor is a sad skeleton on the Astral Plane.

Lhurgyof's Diplomancer plus three chumps
Status: Pending; Show me how high you can make your Diplomacy score and how this will allow you to decisively defeat the Balor.

Crazedloon's "Krau Sigil 9ths" plus four chumps
Ninja'd If this build is a winner, it goes to Dex, but you will also get 200 words of honorable mention. Other problems with your team include too many chumps (you have 5 ppl total) and frivolous ioun stones exceed WBL; but these are supewrificial problems easily fixed.


Important rules clarification: Any item that can't be made by 6th level casters should actually cost 20x, although that is not what my OP said. I will edit it. Sorry, if it requires CL 7+ or 4th+ level spells, it costs 20x.

@Wings of Peace: You can assume as much Taint as you like, as long as you can show me how it isn't debilitating your character. But yeah... Necropolitan Tainted Scholar is probably not gonna get more than honorable mention.

Poets are sleeping now; will check back on the morrow.

[Wings of Peace]

I may have different opinions about this than other people, but I consider DC 2000 saves roughly in the same general area as Pun Pun.

But 1/4 party members would survive!

[dextercorvia]

16 "roll with it"s will make sure you are immune to the damage the balor can deal.

As for spell like abilities:

blasphemy (DC 25), - be evil
dominate monster (DC 27), - mind blank
greater dispel magic,– spell immunity
insanity (DC 25), - mind blank
power word stun, - mind blank
telekinesis (DC 23), - spell immunity
unholy aura (DC 26); - be evil (still a buff though)
1/day—fire storm (DC 26), - fire soul
1/day - implosion (DC 27) – spell immunity

So all you need is a way to get spell immunity and mind blank for that one encounter. Can that be done with these rules? And for 4th level spells, what if a party member was an artificer?

Greater Spell immunity can only stop spells of 8th level or lower, and you only get one immune spell per 4 CL, so you would need to add Arcane Thesis and Practiced Spellcaster to my Divine guy to get Immunity to GDM and TK.

Edit: To AP -- I will accept the challenge then. I'll throw some chumps together and iron out some tactics by tomorrow.

[Swordguy]

Last technical question: minor artifacts have no listed price...20x0=0, yes? Or are we going by the effective caster level for said artifacts?

Secondarily, I'd argue that the point of E6 isn't to beat big bads as a virtue of your build, but via wacky plans, outside-the-box thinking, and actively going and questing for "the one item that the BBEG is weak to".

In that vein of thought, I present the following:

-1 party of 4, 6th level characters, of any build, as long as one of them has the capability to build a false wall. Additionally, one character must be optimized for Intelligence - having at least a +5 modifier.
-1 stone structure, with a long ramp with low headroom leading downward for over half their distance, then making a hard 90-degree turn at a small landing. The ramp must be behind a door. The hallway containing the ramp must be no larger than 10 feet tall by 4 feet wide (large enough for the Balor to compress himself to get through).
-1 false wall (paper-thickness) in line with the initial flight stairs at the landing.
-Several vials of Oil/Salve of Slipperiness (well within WBL guidelines)
-One Sphere of Annihilation that your party has engaged in a difficult quest to retrieve (partially why you've got 35 bonus feats and your WBL is so bloody high).

Publicize that you know said Balor's true name, and publicize that you have regular meeting in the basement of the aforementioned stone structure. The Balor will find you.

Behind the door at the top of the stairs, and every few yards afterward, you place your Oils of Slipperiness. Balor goes through the door (cause it's a damn Balor, people - what does it have to fear from an E6 environment?), knocks over the vials (which spill down the stairs, coating the area. As there's no headroom for a Large creature down the stairs, the Balor cannot fly and will fall down the ramp, breaking open yet more Oils of Slipperiness and continuing its slide. Upon reaching the landing, it continues sliding through the paper-thin false wall...right into the Sphere of Annihilation you've conveniently left there.

Meanwhile, your party member with the highest INT bonus who controls the Sphere takes 20 to establish control over the Sphere and holds his action. If he sees the Balor appear on the landing NOT in a high-velocity prone position, he immediately cashes in his held action to move the Sphere 10' up the stairs at the Balor. Under the "Inescapable Situations" section, saves and such don't matter when there's nowhere to go. As the 12' tall Balor is still in the tight hallway (10' tall 4' wide), there's nowhere for it to move to to avoid the 3' wide Sphere - thus no Reflex save is allowed.

Bamf. Balor gone.


Is it a perfect plan? No. Is it fun? Yes. Is it more in keeping with the intended tone of E6 than finding a bunch of rules loopholes? You'd better believe it.

[Optimystik]

Perhaps to avoid confusion (as with the LA+E6 discussion) we should agree on and link to a specific set of E6 rules for this challenge? I've found more than one.

EDIT: And before you point me to the thread linked in the OP, there are many holes in that set of rules - including the aforementioned treatment of LA.

[Lhurgyof]

Ah, ok. I'll work out all the details in the morning. It's much too late for me to come up with more than hilariously named characters. xD

[ex cathedra]

I present : Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Loredrake Desert Kobold Sorcerer 6.

Feats:

Spoiler

Show

42 feats.

Dragonwrought
Draconic Reservoir
Versatile Spellcaster
Arcane Thesis (Shivering Touch)
Invisible Spell
Sanctum Spell
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
Practical Metamagic: Maximize
Fortify Spell
Energy Substitution (Cold)
Lord of the Uttercold
Twin Spell
Practical Metamagic: Empower, Maximize, Twin
Swift Metamagic: Invisible, Empower, Maximize, Twin
Skill Beyond Your Years: Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana)
Archmage Training
Arcane Reach
Improved Arcane Reach
Spell Like Ability [Assay Spell Resistance]
Ability Training (Con, Cha, Dex)
Ability Advancement (Con, Cha, Dex)
Arcane Mastery
Improved Initiative
Quick Reconnoiter
Knowledge Devotion

7 Spare feats.

Swift Action : SLA: Assay Spell Resistance
Invisible (-1) Fortified (+0) Uttercold (-1) Empowered (+0) Maximized (+1) Twinned (+2) Shivering Touch (with Improved Arcane Reach from 60' away, not counting the boost from Horizon Goggles) Take 10 to bypass Spell Resistance, we're able to pump our initiative much higher than +11, and we do an average of 46.5 Dexterity damage with no save with a ranged touch attack. The balor has a touch AC of 16. I don't feel like I have to point out how easy it is to beat that. Then the casters (Sorcerer, Beguiler, Archivist) evacuate while the shock trooper kills the paralyzed balor. The shock trooper dies.

Does this seem fair? I feel like I overlooked something.

Other party members:
Shock-Trooper Warblade. Does damage, Uses White Raven Tactics on the Sorc if the first volley somehow fails. Sacrificial lamb to the Death Throes.

Archivist. Does buffs, provides initiative/AB boosters to the Sorcerer if possible. With forty-something feats and the archivist spell list, can do damn near anything, honestly.

Beguiler. Skill monkey, secondary caster. Doesn't do much. Can share a handful of buffs, but this is perfectly doable with the three prior party members.

Equipment: Belts of Battle, Sandals of the Vagabond, +1 Warning Shuriken, Horizon Goggles, +Cha/Dex items, and so forth.

[Boci]

Last technical question: minor artifacts have no listed price...20x0=0, yes? Or are we going by the effective caster level for said artifacts?

Secondarily, I'd argue that the point of E6 isn't to beat big bads as a virtue of your build, but via wacky plans, outside-the-box thinking, and actively going and questing for "the one item that the BBEG is weak to".

In that vein of thought, I present the following:

-1 party of 4, 6th level characters, of any build, as long as one of them has the capability to build a false wall. Additionally, one character must be optimized for Intelligence - having at least a +5 modifier.
-1 stone structure, with a long ramp with low headroom leading downward for over half their distance, then making a hard 90-degree turn at a small landing. The ramp must be behind a door. The hallway containing the ramp must be no larger than 10 feet tall by 4 feet wide (large enough for the Balor to compress himself to get through).
-1 false wall (paper-thickness) in line with the initial flight stairs at the landing.
-Several vials of Oil/Salve of Slipperiness (well within WBL guidelines)
-One Sphere of Annihilation that your party has engaged in a difficult quest to retrieve (partially why you've got 35 bonus feats and your WBL is so bloody high).

Publicize that you know said Balor's true name, and publicize that you have regular meeting in the basement of the aforementioned stone structure. The Balor will find you.

Behind the door at the top of the stairs, and every few yards afterward, you place your Oils of Slipperiness. Balor goes through the door (cause it's a damn Balor, people - what does it have to fear from an E6 environment?), knocks over the vials (which spill down the stairs, coating the area. As there's no headroom for a Large creature down the stairs, the Balor cannot fly and will fall down the ramp, breaking open yet more Oils of Slipperiness and continuing its slide. Upon reaching the landing, it continues sliding through the paper-thin false wall...right into the Sphere of Annihilation you've conveniently left there.

Meanwhile, your party member with the highest INT bonus who controls the Sphere takes 20 to establish control over the Sphere and holds his action. If he sees the Balor appear on the landing NOT in a high-velocity prone position, he immediately cashes in his held action to move the Sphere 10' up the stairs at the Balor. Under the "Inescapable Situations" section, saves and such don't matter when there's nowhere to go. As the 12' tall Balor is still in the tight hallway (10' tall 4' wide), there's nowhere for it to move to to avoid the 3' wide Sphere - thus no Reflex save is allowed.

Bamf. Balor gone.


Is it a perfect plan? No. Is it fun? Yes. Is it more in keeping with the intended tone of E6 than finding a bunch of rules loopholes? You'd better believe it.

What about teleport? The balor can probably make the concentration check to cast it, so how fast does that trap take?