Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God

[Killersquid]

Um, can you give an example? Is it all of them? I noticed that a few choice items on MiniWarGaming is the same price or close to, but the list givin' on TheWarStore is all 20% off. Also make sure that with MiniWarGaming you are looking at the correct price (they show a Canadian dollar count and a US count).

The Ork Warbikes I see are $36 after the price cut. GW lists them as 35$. A few other are similar, such as the Ork Boyz (22.50 on the site, 22 at GW, though now that's just nitpicking). TheWarStore does have better prices than both though. I didn't see the excel sheet given.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Yeah ok. I probably shouldn't have said 10% on MiniWarGaming. I saw that somewhere, but they really are everywhere with their prices. They do have some neat stuff on there though, including these magnets. So awesome. I will never have to glue weapon attachments on my battlesuits again!

[Killersquid]

Yeah ok. I probably shouldn't have said 10% on MiniWarGaming. I saw that somewhere, but they really are everywhere with their prices. They do have some neat stuff on there though, including these magnets. So awesome. I will never have to glue weapon attachments on my battlesuits again!

Wait...my bad, they are indeed cheaper. I was looking at the Canadian dollars price, all the things are actually cheaper in USD compared to GW's site.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I have tried to build Saim-Hann armies, it's difficult to make them useful. There are just things you can't efficiently take down with bikes and vypers.

The worst part is that Saim-Hann armies are supposed to be full of CC dudes on jetbikes, but the CC rules have never made that a good idea. Also, Vypers are rarely a good idea since 2nd; they die waaay too easy.

@Killersquid -

[Eldan]

Hmm. I've actually never seen the stats for the wild riders, were they any useful?
Someone should perhaps make a new unit of close combat bikes for them, if they should ever revive craftworld army lists.

[Killersquid]

The worst part is that Saim-Hann armies are supposed to be full of CC dudes on jetbikes, but the CC rules have never made that a good idea. Also, Vypers are rarely a good idea since 2nd; they die waaay too easy.

@Killersquid -

Ork players are the most generally crazy.

Take a wild guess.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Hmm. I've actually never seen the stats for the wild riders, were they any useful?
Someone should perhaps make a new unit of close combat bikes for them, if they should ever revive craftworld army lists.

Yes there were stats (3rd Edition Craftworld Eldar Codex) and they were terrible.

Your command squad could have a Wild Rider Chief (who can be upgraded to have a power weapon) and up to 10 Kinsmen (Guardians with WS4, and no power weapons). They all had S3 and IIRC the 3rd edition rules only allowed skimmer-mounted units to make 1 CC attack per round.

EDIT:
@Killersquid - At every GW convention I've gone to, you could always pick out the Ork players by sight. They had the most outrageous facial hair, the most... eccentric... clothing, and were always hovering around some table shouting WAAAAAAAAAAAAGH to encourage a fellow Ork player.

They're quite charming, really

[Killersquid]

@Killersquid - At every GW convention I've gone to, you could always pick out the Ork players by sight. They had the most outrageous facial hair, the most... eccentric... clothing, and were always hovering around some table shouting WAAAAAAAAAAAAGH to encourage a fellow Ork player.

They're quite charming, really

That is hilarious. I look very normal.

[Oracle_Hunter]

That is hilarious. I look very normal.

Then you must be doing it wrong

[Ka'ladun]

I'm a newcomer to the hobby and at the moment, just have the Assult on Black Reach basic set. I've gotten used to this and painted all the miniatures, and want to expand. For the record, the set contains:
1 Space Marine Captain
1 Dreadnought
5 Terminators
10 Space Marines (tactical squad)
20 Ork Boyz
5 Ork Nobz
3 Deffkoptas
and 1 Ork Warboss.

Of the lot, I think I want to expand the Ork army first (they're better to paint and yelling WAAAGH! is just plain fun). What's a good direction to go from here?
I'm open to suggestions for the marines as well.

[banjo1985]

The Black Reach box gives you a decent starting point for an Ork force, but it lacks some dakka.

For Orks I'd recommend some trukks to get the boyz into assault range quicker, and bikes for the same reason, and that the new kit is very nice. You need something to take out enemy tanks too, maybe some Tankbusta's. Burna Boyz will make a mess of weak infantry, and you could do with at least another 20 Boyz for numbers. Gretchin are also a good option. Sure they're weak, and will run for the hills when a few die, but they're the only thing in the Ork army that has BS3 and tend to be ignored for better targets. A group of 20 grots opening fire on anything short of marines will cause a surprising amount of damage.

One of the Ork's best strengths is numbers. Only Tyranids and Guard have a hope of fielding as many troops as Orks can. The green tide can wash away a lot of forces purely by very superior numbers. I used to play Orks a long time ago, and its nice to be able to deploy your troops and see you outnumber your enemy by 3:1.

[Killersquid]

The Black Reach box gives you a decent starting point for an Ork force, but it lacks some dakka.

For Orks I'd recommend some trukks to get the boyz into assault range quicker, and bikes for the same reason, and that the new kit is very nice. You need something to take out enemy tanks too, maybe some Tankbusta's. Burna Boyz will make a mess of weak infantry, and you could do with at least another 20 Boyz for numbers. Gretchin are also a good option. Sure they're week, and will run for the hills when a few die, but they're the only thing in the Ork army that has BS3 and tend to be ignored for better targets. A group of 20 grots opening fire on anything short of marines will cause a surprising amount of damage.

One of the Ork's best strengths is numbers. Only Tyranids and Guard have a hope of fielding as many troops as Orks can. The green tide can wash away a lot of forces purely by very superior numbers. I used to play Orks a long time ago, and its nice to be able to deploy your troops and see you outnumber your enemy by 3:1.

Gotta disagree with you and tankbustas. A small unit of deffkoptas with rokkits and buzzsaws can drop tanks like no problem, and are not compelled to fire at 1 unit the whole game, and Nob Bikers...just...nob bikers...

[banjo1985]

You're probably right, I don't have any experience of Deffkopta's so I don't really know what they're good for. A Big Mek with a Kustom Forcefield could also be a good buy. I believe they give some kind of invulnerable save to Boyz within a certain range. This is nice, as most of your grunts won't get a save against anything.

[Killersquid]

You're probably right, I don't have any experience of Deffkopta's so I don't really know what they're good for.

They're quite fragile, but devastating. You either target them and let boyz get close, or don't and let them rip you a new one. They can turbo boost on the scout phase, then do it AGAIN their next movement phase, practically getting into an assault by second turn (or 1st turn and get a shot off). They can assault a unit and then use Hit and Run to run away as far as possible, ensuring they always assault and get the furious charge and charge benefits. Very good models.

[Winterwind]

Well, it's not out of the question for an Undivided force to be led by a warlord who has chosen a patron. And yes, Chaos has been splintered so many times, and has gotten so many new recruits, that it's not out of the question for there to be all kinds of splinters.

After all, those Daemons armies have to be summoned from somewhere.

As for fluff vs. powergamer, well, there's always different interpretations. GW has retconned, rewritten, or torn up the fluff so many times that it's not out of the question for there to be some minor differences between Imperial Forces.

Well, then, I hope my interpretation of the fluff is reasonable enough for everyone I ever end up playing with to let it pass.

However, finding reasons to shove 20+ assault cannons (in last edition) in your list, finding a way to include Tigirius and Vulkan in your list at the same time, or a Chapter Master leading every combat patrol is not very fluffy...

What's so bad about so many assault cannons? Or rather, why would anyone want to do that in the first place? Why not get diversified equipment and have troops that are always more effective at their respective function?
I must admit that assault cannons, of all weapons, are the one of which I never quite saw the use of; for just about every purpose, there is a weapon that is way better than them. Sure, they are good at almost everything, but I'd much rather have each of my units excel at what it's supposed to be doing rather than be okay at everything. Plus, they make the entire army immobile; the issues this would cause in the current edition aside, where's the fun in that?

I suppose I'm just cynical now. I rarely had any 'fun' games, and when I wasn't facing gunliners, I was being greeted to every sort of cheese army from three editions. Ever fought Iron Warriors last edition? NOT FUN.

I keep hearing that... what was so bad about them? I seem to remember reading something about having one more Heavy Support choice than normal? Is that so critical?
Of course, judging by what I keep reading, many players seem to believe Heavy Support is vastly superior to everything else in the game... I never got that impression, haven't used up my default three Support Choices yet, and even if Support really was slightly better than the rest, I'd still much rather invest into more diversified troops or Fast Attack for more tactical potential than stuff that just stays stationary and keeps firing every round.

As for 40K Chaos: it was in fact common, back in 2nd Edition, for Chaos to field armies under one God only. The idea is that you have Traitor Legions devoted to individual gods, and so they are the ones who come out and kill things. At the time "Chaos Undivided" didn't exist IIRC.

So, those people who feel such hatred towards mixed Chaos armies are likely using an outdated version of fluff?

Now, you kids haven't seen a really beardy 40K army because the army list requirements that started in 3rd made it impossible to field the worst kind of cheese. Back in 2nd you'd have Eldar Armies made up entirely of Aspect Warriors and Space Marines which were nothing but Land Raiders. Those were crazy! Now, the "fluff" aspect of army building is hard-coded into the rules: you have to field "troops" and Elite units are rare.

Wow, but all Land Raiders sure is risky.
They will likely have problems killing their points worth, and as soon as the first units with meltas reach them, they will begin dropping like flies.
Not to mention, booo-riiiing...

The worst part is that Saim-Hann armies are supposed to be full of CC dudes on jetbikes, but the CC rules have never made that a good idea. Also, Vypers are rarely a good idea since 2nd; they die waaay too easy.

Unless I'm forgetting some special rule for jetbikes that does not apply to normal bikes or you are referring to Eldar jetbikes only which have some other disadvantages I'm not aware of, why should CC bikes be a bad idea?
They are tougher than normal warriors and have it far easier to get into CC quickly, not to mention to get into CC with those of the enemy units which are meant for anything but getting into CC...

[Eldan]

Yeah, actually, Eldar bikers aren't that bad in CC. Ask Lorn, I beat up a squad of guardsmen with 3 bikes. (Okay, and a lot of shooting).
The Eldar's usually horrible Strenght, and quite bad WS3, but they have pistols, T4 and 3+ armor, which means they can actually get hit and not die.

By the way, anyone up for a game of Vassal40k this weekend?

[Zorg]

Wow, but all Land Raiders sure is risky.
They will likely have problems killing their points worth, and as soon as the first units with meltas reach them, they will begin dropping like flies.
Not to mention, booo-riiiing...

But Land Raiders in 2nd Ed were basically god - they could move, fire all their weapons at different targets and were generally indestructable. The biggest problem was when they didn't make a LR kit for several years.

I remember quite fondly fieldign three land raiders in one battle - good times :)

As for 40K Chaos: it was in fact common, back in 2nd Edition, for Chaos to field armies under one God only. The idea is that you have Traitor Legions devoted to individual gods, and so they are the ones who come out and kill things. At the time "Chaos Undivided" didn't exist IIRC.

Alpha Legion, World Bearers, Iron Legion, Night Lords, Black Legion all worshipped undivided. They just weren't really fleshed out as much as the 'big four' legions.

Now, you kids haven't seen a really beardy 40K army because the army list requirements that started in 3rd made it impossible to field the worst kind of cheese. Back in 2nd you'd have Eldar Armies made up entirely of Aspect Warriors and Space Marines which were nothing but Land Raiders. Those were crazy! Now, the "fluff" aspect of army building is hard-coded into the rules: you have to field "troops" and Elite units are rare.

Well you can still field 100% aspect warrior armies, and get four LRs in a marine army now. 2nd Ed still had maximum percentages of unit composition

IIRC, Chaos players are the most fluff-crazy in 40K; Ork players are the most generally crazy. Among Eldar players you occasionally have folks trying to field Craftworld Armies which are fluffy - though I've yet to see a Saim-Haim army that made a lick of sense - but the most fluff I've seen out of IG, SM, or Tau is in paint scheme. I mean, how many Tau do you see that actually field Ethereals, even though those guys are supposed to be running things?

I've seen very very fluffy Marines and IG armies, and alot of generic chaos and eldar. I really need to get around to writing up my stuff for my marines to proove my point But yeah, the Tau backstory doesn't really lend itself to much custom fluff. And etherals are commanding - from their command bunker many miles behind the front line ;)

[Eldan]

My Eldar army is more or less Alaitoc... lots of Rangers and Harlequin, and I even have the same colour scheme, though I didn't know it at the time.

[Erloas]

As for magnets, I found K&J Magnetics to be a very good place to get magnets. They have a very wide selection of sizes, they are as cheap as anything I found on ebay (about 55% cheaper then what miniwargames has them listed at) and they have decent shipping prices. They got them shipped very quickly too. Right now I have as much of my army as is practical magneted up for various weapons.


To go back to the kroot, they don't have the I or Sv to stand up to any CC unit of any other army, and they don't have the survivability to close with virtually any shooty units (even 10 guards with nothing but lasguns will kill 2.5 a turn at range and 5 a turn with rapid fire) so without a transport or the ability to outflank or deepstrike they have no real chance of causing shooty units any real trouble. The only use I see for them is to try and shape the battlefield and force your opponents actions as much as possible. They are of course going to die in the process, its just a matter of what you gain from their deaths. I think that with rapid fire and str4 shots they are almost as dangerous at close range as they are in combat (since I doesn't come into play at range). Since they are fairly likely to run at the first morale test they need to be put in a place where they preform most of their task before taking many wounds. The size of the unit is also not that important because a few more models doesn't really mean much.
I think the biggest issue with their use is that many Tau lists seem to just stand around and shoot as much as possible and hope enough is dead before it gets close. Shaping the battlefield and forcing your opponents movements however only becomes relivent when you have the situational firepower and movement to take advantage of it. If you aren't moving to take advantage of the opportunties the kroot can create then there is little point in them being there.

@Winterwind and the assault cannons, the only thing about the assault cannons is that they are the only heavy weapon the IG have that have more then 1 shot and can still pose a threat to most vehicles head on since you aren't going to be moving to get to the sides and rear of the vehicles when the multi-laser's str6 shots are very dangerous. So with 40 shots at str7, even AV12 front vehicles (which seem to be the most common) are going to be taking a lot of pens and glances. Its also enough to insta-death characters from several armies. It would definately be an army that is very good against certain opponents and just get wasted by others.


As for the eldar jetbikes, they don't have pistols anymore, so they don't get an extra handweapon attack. In fantasy models that are mounted don't get the extra attack from two hand-weapons, only when on foot, so I would assume that if they used to have a pistol and hand-weapon that 40k also had that rule where you only got the extra attack when not mounted.
Right now the normal jetbikes really can't do anything in CC, except wait around to die. The shining spears are good on the charge with their lances and can get hit-and-run which makes them dangerous, but I haven't run the numbers to see really what they are viably dangerous against.

[Winterwind]

But Land Raiders in 2nd Ed were basically god - they could move, fire all their weapons at different targets and were generally indestructable. The biggest problem was when they didn't make a LR kit for several years.

Oh, I see.
Wow, different targets...

I remember quite fondly fieldign three land raiders in one battle - good times :)

Well, that's still possible - not necessarily practical, but most definitely possible.

To go back to the kroot, they don't have the I or Sv to stand up to any CC unit of any other army, and they don't have the survivability to close with virtually any shooty units (even 10 guards with nothing but lasguns will kill 2.5 a turn at range and 5 a turn with rapid fire) so without a transport or the ability to outflank or deepstrike they have no real chance of causing shooty units any real trouble. The only use I see for them is to try and shape the battlefield and force your opponents actions as much as possible. They are of course going to die in the process, its just a matter of what you gain from their deaths. I think that with rapid fire and str4 shots they are almost as dangerous at close range as they are in combat (since I doesn't come into play at range). Since they are fairly likely to run at the first morale test they need to be put in a place where they preform most of their task before taking many wounds. The size of the unit is also not that important because a few more models doesn't really mean much.
I think the biggest issue with their use is that many Tau lists seem to just stand around and shoot as much as possible and hope enough is dead before it gets close. Shaping the battlefield and forcing your opponents movements however only becomes relivent when you have the situational firepower and movement to take advantage of it. If you aren't moving to take advantage of the opportunties the kroot can create then there is little point in them being there.

Well, I just checked the numbers a bit, and this time, I have to disagree... the Kroot fare fairly well, at least if they get the assault.
Let's take that unit of 10 Kroot and 12 Kroot Hounds (I know evil_d4_swarm wants to use only 6 Hounds, but that leads to half dead marines on average, and after a day of work I don't feel like complicating the math , and besides, it gets the unit's cost slightly closer to that of their opponents (though they still remain cheaper)). Let's send it once against a full TacSquad of loyalist Space Marines, with a Sergeant with Powerfist, and once against a squad of 8 Khornate Berzerkers with a Skull Champion, again with Powerfist (the former, I assume, a realistic unit, of course with some special weaponry that we don't have to take into account in CC, the latter a unit I intend to use myself).

With I5, the Kroot Hounds go first - with assault, that's 3 attacks per Hound (36 attacks), against both units hitting on 4+ (18 hits), wounding on 4+ (9 wounds), saved on 3+ (3 unsaved wounds).
Of the Space Marines, 7 are left standing, one bearing a powerfist, so 6 attacks now. Those hit on 4+ (3 hits), wound on 3+ (2 wounds) and there is no save. Two Hounds die.
With the Berzerkers, 5 would be still standing, one with the powerfist, 3 attacks per Berzerker, so 12 attacks for now, hitting on 3+ (8 hits), wounding on 3+ (5.33). Five Hounds die.
Next come the Kroot - ten of them, two attacks thanks to assault, equal chances to hit, wound and not save as before, that's 3.33 dead opponents again.
Last comes the Sergeant/Champion; the Sergeant has 2 attacks which hit on a 4+ and wound on a 2+, that's on average one dead Hound, the Champion has 4 attacks which hit on a 3+, that's 2.22 dead Hounds.

Result? Against the TacSquad, the Kroot have lost three models and killed six, winning the CC and decimating the squad, against the Berzerkers they lost seven models and killed six again, they lose the CC, but only two Berzerkers are left standing. And this Berzerker unit costs a lot more than the Kroot.

In either case, I would say this was very much worth it.

If they don't get the assault, they will lose to the Space Marines and die horribly to the Berzerkers though.

@Winterwind and the assault cannons, the only thing about the assault cannons is that they are the only heavy weapon the IG have that have more then 1 shot and can still pose a threat to most vehicles head on since you aren't going to be moving to get to the sides and rear of the vehicles when the multi-laser's str6 shots are very dangerous. So with 40 shots at str7, even AV12 front vehicles (which seem to be the most common) are going to be taking a lot of pens and glances. Its also enough to insta-death characters from several armies. It would definately be an army that is very good against certain opponents and just get wasted by others.

Oh, I see. I guess that's something that loses a lot of its horror when you know that two thirds of those shots will bounce off harmlessly of even your most basic troops' armour.

[The Sandman]

As long as people are a) posting lists and b) giving advice for Tau players, I'll put my list up for your perusal.

Spoiler

Show

1500pt Tau Cadre

HQ: Shas'el(50) w/ CIB(15), AFP(20), HW MT(5), TA(10), HWDC(0), 2 SDrones(30), bk(5), Stims(10): 145 [have]
Troops 1: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255 [have FW and Fish]
Troops 2: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255 [have FW and Fish]
Troops 3: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255 [have Fish]
Heavy Support 1: Hammerhead(90) w/railgun(50), SMS(20), TA(0), MT(10), DP(5), TL(5), 1 SM: 190 [have]
Elites 1: Crisis Team of 1 Shas'ui(25) w/TA(10), TL MP(18), 1 Shas'ui(25)w/PR(20), MP(12), MT(5), 1 Shas'ui TL (30) w bk(5), MT(5), PR(20), MP(12): 187 [have]
Elites 2: Stealth Team of 2 Shas'ui(60) each w/DC(0), MDrone (60), Shas'ui TL(35) w/bk(5), HWDC(0), MDrone(30), Markerlight(10), HWMT(5), HW BSfilter(3): 208 [have]

Total: 1495(5)

************************************

2000pt Tau Cadre

HQ: Shas'el(50) w/ CIB(15), AFP(20), HW MT(5), TA(10), HWDC(0), 2 SDrones(30), bk(5), Stims(10): 145 [have]
Troops 1: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255 [have FW and Fish]
Troops 2: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255 [have FW and Fish]
Troops 3: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255 [have Fish]
Troops 4: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255
Heavy Support 1: Hammerhead(90) w/railgun(50), SMS(20), TA(0), MT(10), DP(5), TL(5), 1 SM: 190 [have]
Heavy Support 2: Broadside Team of 3 Broadside(210) w/ASS(30), one of them TL(5) w/bk(5): 250
Elites 1: Crisis Team of 1 Shas'ui(25) w/TA(10), TL MP(18), 1 Shas'ui(25)w/PR(20), MP(12), MT(5), 1 Shas'ui TL (30) w bk(5), MT(5), PR(20), MP(12): 187 [have]
Elites 2: Stealth Team of 2 Shas'ui(60) each w/DC(0), MDrone (60), Shas'ui TL(35) w/bk(5), HWDC(0), MDrone(30), Markerlight(10), HWMT(5), HW BSfilter(3): 208 [have]

Total: 2000(0)

*************************************

2500pt Tau Cadre

HQ: Shas'el(50) w/ CIB(15), AFP(20), HW MT(5), TA(10), HWDC(0), 2 SDrones(30), bk(5), Stims(10), 2 Shas'vre Bodyguard (70) w/ TL BC (24), TA (20): 264 [have Shas'el]
Troops 1: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM(10): 255 [have FW and Fish]
Troops 2: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM(10): 255 [have FW and Fish]
Troops 3: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM(10): 255 [have Fish]
Troops 4: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM(10): 255
Heavy Support 1: Hammerhead(90) w/railgun(50), SMS(20), TA(0), MT(10), DP(5), TL(5): 180 [have]
Heavy Support 2: Broadside Team of 2 Broadside(140) w/ASS(20), one of them TL(5) w/bk(5), HWMT(5), TL PR(10), HWDC(0), 2 SDrones(30): 215
Heavy Support 3: Broadside Team of 2 Broadside(140) w/ASS(20), one of them TL(5) w/bk(5), HWMT(5), TL PR(10), HWDC(0), 2 SDrones(30): 215
Elites 1: Crisis Team of 1 Shas'ui(25) w/TA(10), TL MP(18), 1 Shas'ui(25)w/PR(20), MP(12), MT(5), 1 Shas'ui TL (30) w bk(5), MT(5), PR(20), MP(12): 187 [have]
Elites 2: Stealth Team of 2 Shas'ui(60) each w/DC(0), MDrone (60), Shas'ui TL(35) w/bk(5), HWDC(0), MDrone(30), Markerlight(10), HWMT(5), HW BSfilter(3): 208 [have]
Elites 3: Stealth Team of 2 Shas'ui(60) each w/DC(0), MDrone (60), Shas'ui TL(35) w/bk(5), HWDC(0), MDrone(30), Markerlight(10), HWMT(5), HW BSfilter(3): 208

Total: 2497(3)

I personally think that the 2500pt list is the most balanced of these, but please tell me what you all think.

[Ghal Marak]

It's funny that a conversation about mono-facited armies sprung up just as I discovered that its possible to field a sniper army. Space Marines of course. Two full squads of Scouts with camo cloaks, a couple of Dreadnaughts (I was eyeing that Ironclad, and I love how you can give a Venerable two TLAutocannons/Lascannons) and the Vindicare Assassain from the Daemonhunters as an ally. Not the best of armies, but it can easily kill tougher opponents (like C'tan and T7 Carnifex). The Vindicare can easily pick off the troublesome stuff like models with heavy weapons, and is pretty decent in CC. I haven't done the points calculations yet, but reguardless it would be a very fun army to play. Not so much to play against though.

And I've got yet another question! And Eversor Assassain has both a Power Weapon and the Neuro-Gauntlet (which counts as a close combat weapon). What I am wandering is, does he get the +1A for two close combat weapons? And how does that work in close combat? Do his all his attacks ignore armor, or do you have to declare he is focusing on using the power weapon or NG?

[Tren]

And I've got yet another question! And Eversor Assassain has both a Power Weapon and the Neuro-Gauntlet (which counts as a close combat weapon). What I am wandering is, does he get the +1A for two close combat weapons? And how does that work in close combat? Do his all his attacks ignore armor, or do you have to declare he is focusing on using the power weapon or NG?

As they're two different special weapons, you have to declare which one you're using and you do not gain the 1+ attack from having two CC weapons. Though in my interpretation, if you had a regular CCW or pistol in addition to the two special weapons you mentioned you could use that and gain the 1+.

[Selrahc]

As they're two different special weapons, you have to declare which one you're using and you do not gain the 1+ attack from having two CC weapons. Though in my interpretation, if you had a regular CCW or pistol in addition to the two special weapons you mentioned you could use that and gain the 1+.

Luckily for the Eversor he does have a pistol, so you do get the extra attack.

[Ghal Marak]

As they're two different special weapons, you have to declare which one you're using and you do not gain the 1+ attack from having two CC weapons. Though in my interpretation, if you had a regular CCW or pistol in addition to the two special weapons you mentioned you could use that and gain the 1+.

Ah yes, I forgot he had the Exicutioners Pistol (Combi-Bolt pistol/Needle pistol). So he would get the 1+ attack for the pistol, but I have to declare which weapon he is using in close combat. Alright, that makes sense. Thanks Tren.

EDIT- Ninja'd!

[Erloas]

Result? Against the TacSquad, the Kroot have lost three models and killed six, winning the CC and decimating the squad, against the Berzerkers they lost seven models and killed six again, they lose the CC, but only two Berzerkers are left standing. And this Berzerker unit costs a lot more than the Kroot.

In either case, I would say this was very much worth it.

If they don't get the assault, they will lose to the Space Marines and die horribly to the Berzerkers though.

Well I didn't run the numbers on them, maybe I should have. However, how would the numbers change if the Marines decided to take a round of shooting with their bolters or pistols into the kroot before the kroot close range? Also how do the numbers change if the Marine player, knowing the hounds have already attacked, decide to kill the kroot instead of the hounds since that reduced the attacks back and the chance to hit, wound, and kill the models is the same?

The other question then becomes, with a 142 point unit instead of a 70 point unit you then expect them to do more in the game, do they have the numbers left to have a reasonable chance at another unit? Although I suppose at this point they have earned their points. The question is at what number of kroot+hounds do they break even in combat, and how likely are they to stay above that number after shooting from just about any unit in the game with a gun.

Ok, I guess I can do it as well (this would be an edit but the first time I tried to post it, it didn't make it, so this isn't really an edit. I've gotten in the happen of ctrl+a and ctrl+c every reply before I hit submit because the site is eating so many posts)

Kroot - 8 of them against the marines, three attacks thanks to assault (the kroot rifle counts as 2 handweapons for the extra attack), equal chances to hit, 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 not saved. Same number of kills for the sergent, 1, equals 3 dead kroot/hounds and 5 dead marines. A decent victory.
This however doesn't seem to be a CC unit and just a normal unit, and I would expect the kroot to win there, I just wouldn't expect them to get into combat without taking casualties to shooting first.

Against the berzerkers they still kill 5 models, this time kroot instead of hounds. That means 5 kroot left, 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, and 1.25 dead berzerkers. The champion would be the same killing 2.22 more kroot/hounds. That leaves 4.25 dead marines and 7.2 dead kroot/hounds. They aren't likely to make the LD test and will likely run.

If you reduce the hounds to 6 models thats 1.5kills from the hounds, increasing the kills of the normal marines by 0.5kills. Total then is 3.5 dead kroot/hounds and 3.5 dead marines, a statistical draw that could go either way. (actually slightly fewer kills for the kroot, I don't feel like calculating the change from the extra half a kill from the marines)
With the berzerkers they kill 2 more (7 total) and the 3 remaining kroot deal 3 wounds, 1 dead. End result is 2.5 dead berzkers and 9.22 dead kroot/hounds. Decidedly one-sided.

Although now that I think about it I'm not sure how the wounds would be assigned in 40k CC. Usually in fantasy the attacker decides which unit he is going to attack and/or can assign attacks against champions and which part of a mixed unit they are going to attack. Some mixed units have specific rules saying which models are killed first, but if they don't its the attackers choice. If it works like shooting (which I'm thinking it probably does) then the tau player gets to assign the wounds and your numbers are right. The kroot/hound unit might have a rule saying which models are killed first too, sometimes mixed units like that randomize the wounds between the different parts.

Either way though it seems to enforce the fact that the higher I of the hounds is making all of the difference. I don't know if the ferocious fangs makes any difference either, what that counts as.

It would be interesting to run the numbers against something like Orks, or something like Eldar or Tyrnids which are likely to go before or at the same time as the hounds. The kroot as a whole probably fair a lot better against the orks, I really couldn't say against the eldar or tyrnids without running the numbers.

I think though that against a fair number of opponents, the fact that the kroot will be out infront of all the rest of the tau, that things are going to be shooting at them in the turn(s) it takes them to get into range of the rest of the army. Since it is very likely a unit with rapid fire will have moved and not even be able to shoot at the tau while the kroot are within rapid fire range. Or like eldar who's small arms fire is pretty much limited to 12" range.

Edit again: well I decided to do a round of shooting against them. With at 2 shots a piece from a unit of 10 at BS4 with a St4Ap5 weapon (rapid fire bolters, shuriken catapults, though they can be BS3 or BS4, with a BS5 champ) that is 20 shots, 13.33 hits, and 8.88 wounds. Thats almost half the unit depending on how many you have. Even in 4+ cover thats 4.44 wounds, which might cause a morale check. Of course if it is pistol fire instead thats 4.44 wounds, and 2.22 in 4+ cover, not too bad if you can be in cover but not great either way.

Oh, I see. I guess that's something that loses a lot of its horror when you know that two thirds of those shots will bounce off harmlessly of even your most basic troops' armour.

Against a troop heavy force, especially a heavily armored force, the list isn't a huge danger. If you happen to have a few expensive models, especially ones relying on high T or AV in the case of vehicles to survive then the list gets a lot more dangerous.

real edit:
@The Sandman
for readability and also because GW generally gets mad at fansites if people post the individual cost breakdown (not that they visit here, but I know its a big deal on dedicated WH sites) its best to just list the total cost of the unit.
Also not everyone knows all of the abreviations used by every army, so it helps people figure out what you have if you don't abreviate everything.

[Winterwind]

Well I didn't run the numbers on them, maybe I should have. However, how would the numbers change if the Marines decided to take a round of shooting with their bolters or pistols into the kroot before the kroot close range?

Well, I think they would have to score quite a lot of kills to significantly alter the results - this Kroot squad is quite a horde.
Plus, judging from evil_d4_swarm's list, those Hounds seem to come at 6 points per Hound - I think that qualifies as 'cheap' even for non-CSM-players.

Also how do the numbers change if the Marine player, knowing the hounds have already attacked, decide to kill the kroot instead of the hounds since that reduced the attacks back and the chance to hit, wound, and kill the models is the same?

I know this would be more sensible for the Marine player, but as long as the Kroot and the Hounds form a single unit - which I assume is the case, judging from how evil_d4_swarm structured his list - and there are no special rules in place (of which I wouldn't know), the wounds are assigned the same way as when shooting. The only exception to this are Independant Characters who can be targeted directly, but we have none here. If the Kroot and the Hounds count as two separate units for CC purposes, then the Marine player can split his attacks accordingly.

The other question then becomes, with a 142 point unit instead of a 70 point unit you then expect them to do more in the game, do they have the numbers left to have a reasonable chance at another unit? Although I suppose at this point they have earned their points. The question is at what number of kroot+hounds do they break even in combat, and how likely are they to stay above that number after shooting from just about any unit in the game with a gun.

Indeed. Another thing to note is that they might cause the Marine player to manouver more carefully in order to prevent them from getting the assault - in which case they would function quite well in the 'battlefield shaping' function you mentioned earlier.

Ok, I guess I can do it as well (this would be an edit but the first time I tried to post it, it didn't make it, so this isn't really an edit. I've gotten in the happen of ctrl+a and ctrl+c every reply before I hit submit because the site is eating so many posts)

Yeah, it tends to do that on strip-update-days... don't know about your browser/browser settings, but mine remembers what I wrote when I go a page back, that usually saves me from losing what I wrote - maybe yours does so as well, or could be set to do so?

Kroot - 8 of them against the marines, three attacks thanks to assault (the kroot rifle counts as 2 handweapons for the extra attack), equal chances to hit, 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 not saved. Same number of kills for the sergent, 1, equals 3 dead kroot/hounds and 5 dead marines. A decent victory.

Oh, two handweapons, huh?
Well, that makes Kroot even better than I thought...

This however doesn't seem to be a CC unit and just a normal unit, and I would expect the kroot to win there, I just wouldn't expect them to get into combat without taking casualties to shooting first.

Well, not a unit built for CC specifically, but a Space Marine unit nonetheless. If they can win fairly decently against a general purpose unit full of elite models like Space Marines, just imagine the carnage if they managed to get to an actual shooting-only unit, or a normal unit of an individually weaker race!

And, yeah, there would definitely be casualties due to fire; the problem is that those are impossible to estimate, as depending on the situation on the entire battlefield those Kroot might run through several turns of artillery barrage concentrating on them, or just be shot once with a couple of pistols before they get to assault.

Against the berzerkers they still kill 5 models, this time kroot instead of hounds. That means 5 kroot left, 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, and 1.25 dead berzerkers. The champion would be the same killing 2.22 more kroot/hounds. That leaves 4.25 dead marines and 7.2 dead kroot/hounds. They aren't likely to make the LD test and will likely run.

Interesting what would happen then. Whose Initiative would count for breaking away from this CC? The Kroots? The Hounds?
Eh, there are probably some special rules for this...

If you reduce the hounds to 6 models thats 1.5kills from the hounds, increasing the kills of the normal marines by 0.5kills. Total then is 3.5 dead kroot/hounds and 3.5 dead marines, a statistical draw that could go either way. (actually slightly fewer kills for the kroot, I don't feel like calculating the change from the extra half a kill from the marines)
With the berzerkers they kill 2 more (7 total) and the 3 remaining kroot deal 3 wounds, 1 dead. End result is 2.5 dead berzkers and 9.22 dead kroot/hounds. Decidedly one-sided.

Which pretty much means that if the Kroot are to have any use, the unit must have a minimum size. Ideally, many Hounds, as those are decidedly better at the CC role than the Kroot.

Although now that I think about it I'm not sure how the wounds would be assigned in 40k CC. Usually in fantasy the attacker decides which unit he is going to attack and/or can assign attacks against champions and which part of a mixed unit they are going to attack. Some mixed units have specific rules saying which models are killed first, but if they don't its the attackers choice. If it works like shooting (which I'm thinking it probably does) then the tau player gets to assign the wounds and your numbers are right. The kroot/hound unit might have a rule saying which models are killed first too, sometimes mixed units like that randomize the wounds between the different parts.

See above. Though special rules wouldn't surprize me at all here.

Either way though it seems to enforce the fact that the higher I of the hounds is making all of the difference. I don't know if the ferocious fangs makes any difference either, what that counts as.

Indeed. The Kroot are not sufficiently good at CC to dominate there - they are strictly worse than Space Marines equipped for close combat (which includes all Chaos Marines, except Thousand Sons), even - but the Initiative of the Hounds makes those perfectly suitable for fighting even dedicated CC units.

Note that if the Kroot unit was just a bit larger (specifically, 4 additional models), they would destroy the entire Berzerker troop (in my math above, only 2 Berzerkers lived, and that was not including the bonus attack the Kroot get from their weapon; with it, only one would survive), and hence losing more than the Berzerkers wouldn't matter anymore.

It would be interesting to run the numbers against something like Orks, or something like Eldar or Tyrnids which are likely to go before or at the same time as the hounds. The kroot as a whole probably fair a lot better against the orks, I really couldn't say against the eldar or tyrnids without running the numbers.

Yeah, seems likely. I wouldn't bet on the Kroot's continued existance if they were up against Noise Marines instead of Berzerkers, either.

I think though that against a fair number of opponents, the fact that the kroot will be out infront of all the rest of the tau, that things are going to be shooting at them in the turn(s) it takes them to get into range of the rest of the army. Since it is very likely a unit with rapid fire will have moved and not even be able to shoot at the tau while the kroot are within rapid fire range. Or like eldar who's small arms fire is pretty much limited to 12" range.

Which means Kroot must be used with great care.

At any rate, I think those Kroot can be fairly effective, if used in a sufficiently big horde. Which, looking at the price, seems entirely feasible.

[evil_d4_swarm]

Taking your (all of you) advice to heart, I have revamped my army list:

Spoiler

Show

[Erloas]

Yeah, it tends to do that on strip-update-days... don't know about your browser/browser settings, but mine remembers what I wrote when I go a page back, that usually saves me from losing what I wrote - maybe yours does so as well, or could be set to do so?

It does sometimes, and sometimes it doesn't, so I can never count on it. I think if it just goes back it remembers but sometimes I think it reloads the page when it goes back and that clears the typing.

As for the fleeing if the kroot or the enemy fleed, it goes by majority of models, so it just depends if the kroot or the hounds outnumber.

I think the kroot have a very viable role in the tau army, but like every unit in every army, it has to be supported properly to get much done. I think the problem with them is generally that tau lists aren't designed to give the enemy any other target to shoot at when the kroot move forward so they take a lot of fire and get shot down to inneffective sizes simply from attacks of opportunty from the opponents (ie nothing better to shoot at). I think it could probably work fairly well with some other troops with move and fire weapons with much range to move around with them. Such as a unit or two of fire warriors with the pulse carbines, and hopefully the opponent will underestimate the kroot and shoot at the FWs instead giving the kroot a higher chance of a good charge.

[Altima]

Taking your (all of you) advice to heart, I have revamped my army list:

Spoiler

Show

Only problem with this list is the troops section. This would be a typical 4th edition list, but now we're in 5th edition. Troops are the only things that can capture objectives, and you only have two troop choices. And kroot are very vulnerable to firepower. After they're dead, all your opponent has to do is hide on her table side, negating most of your short-range firepower. Even better if they take out your hammerheads.

EDIT: While we're talking about fluff, especially Tau, I think it was funny that, at one point, I fought a Tau army comprised entirely of kroot and led by an ethereal.