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Thread: After vs Life
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2015-08-16, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
One would think "unable to have children" would be the biggest issue for a large portion of the population. Regardless of your own future plans, a lot of people want children, and this would be taking that possibility away from them.
Also, the whole free choice thing. There's a reason hive minds are considered terrifying to most people. Free will is an integral part of being human. Taking that away is universally considered a bad thing, even if the net benefit outweighs the people who are getting screwed over.
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2015-08-16, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-08-16, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-08-16, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: For All The Comforts Of The Afterlife...
No, Roy learned of a new swordfighting technique in Celestia, which he then mastered after returning to life. Dead souls cannot earn XP, gain levels, learn feats, or increase skills.
EDIT: I went back and read #600 and I can see how the dialogue can lead to the belief that Roy had actually mastered the technique. However, note that in panel #3, Horace reminds him he needs to spend a feat on it. If I had to reconcile that strip with what I said above, I would say that if Roy stayed in Celestia, the knowledge of the trick would have quickly faded from his mind. Even if he learned it over and over again, it would never "stick" in his head for more than a day or two.
Yes, that is exactly what I mean.
"Spiritual enlightenment" in this case means giving up attachments to the world and accepting that you are no longer part of it. If anything, it is essentially unlearning things; becoming less of an individual with a unique perspective and more of a pure embodiment of alignment. Horace is a little further on that path than Sarah because he's not still engaging in things like random hook-ups, because he understands that nothing matters anymore when you're dead. It is not some sort of eternal learning experience; it's letting go of everything you learned because you don't need it anymore. That is the only change available to dead souls.
Is Eugene in Celestia yet?
Because I am saying that is specifically what the afterlife does. It makes you into a cookie-cutter clone of everyone of the same alignment. It may take centuries to do so, but all the people at the top of the mountain? Completely indistinguishable from one another. Arguably, that is the purpose of the D&D afterlife—to turn flawed mortal souls into perfect alignment-batteries, through various methodologies. In the Nine Hells, they torture you until you forget everything else. In Celestia, you meditate until you renounce all worldly concerns. In Valhalla, you party until you can't remember your own name. In Limbo, the chaos drives you mad. In Mechanus, you sit in grey cubicle stamping paperwork until you are bored into oblivion. And so on and so forth.
But more to the point, the difference in viewpoint between Durkon and Roy—assuming that Durkon would even end up in the same afterlife once you take into account his worship of Thor—is peanuts compared to the difference between Roy and Haley. If you feel like you would be totally fine never talking to anyone who doesn't more or less agree with you on everything ever again, then that's great for you, but it's a mistake to assume everyone else feels that way.
Because they don't. Yes, they could, but they don't.
This is not a debate. You asked why X is a certain way in this comic strip. I, the author, am telling you why. Windstriker is not a dead soul, he is a living Celestial creature; he is not bound by the same rules. He needs a pass because he is in the service of the Twelve Gods and will likely be assigned to another paladin at some point, from whom he must get permission before going on a trip. If he were unemployed, he would be free to go to whatever plane he could find a way to travel to. Dead souls have no such freedom.
No, because I am specifically telling you that is not how it works. If you want to write a story about a world where the afterlife works like that, go ahead. That's not how it works in my story.
Really, you're coming at this entirely backwards. You're saying the afterlife shouldn't have flaws, and therefore Roy should be OK with everyone dying. I'm saying that I require Roy to be not OK with everyone dying in order to continue the story, and therefore the afterlife must have flaws (and here they are). Since the goal here is for me to continue to tell the story I have imagined, my position wins.Rich Burlew
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2015-08-16, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Thank you, Mr Burlew, for the detailed and thought-out response.
A follow up question, if I may.
Does this mean that Xykon and the rest of our lawful evil villains are *right*?
I remember that when Darth V took on Xykon, he was mocked for being attached to two souls which didn't have what it took to avoid hell -- become a lich, or even a brain in a jar, to avoid the Big Fire below.
If I'm reading your logic correctly, if the final outcome of the afterlife -- not just for evil souls , but for all souls -- is to be turned into an "alignment battery" completely indistinguishable from every other -- then shouldn't every living creature with regard for its own freedom and dignity be seeking to AVOID the afterlife? Not just the evil afterlife, but ANY afterlife?
Therefore, should not every wizard of sufficiently high power and wisdom to understand this, be laboring night and day to achieve immortality, not only for himself but for his loved ones?
If anything, the first-level paradise Roy experienced in the celestial realm could be thought of as "bait" to a trap -- people go willingly to the afterlife to seek rewards, but the "trap" is that they are essentially boiled down into a sludge , indecipherable one from another.
Why should not mortals, then, defy the gods and seek their own way after death?
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2015-08-16, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
I kindof have to agree, I could see a lot of lawful people making the decision that becoming a more perfect embodiment of there chosen viewpoint and helping that viewpoint along at a cosmic scale is the correct thing - but someone who embraces individuality (like a lot of chaotic people) should probably go for being a Lich (or a baelnorn of similar).
Perhaps some people simply stay at the first level of the afterlife and never move on to the higher/lower levels - that could work I suppose.
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2015-08-16, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-08-16, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Leave it to this forum to actively seek out reasons for the story to end with a literal Deus Ex Machina.
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2015-08-16, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
There are a lot of different viewpoints in the world, and it would be a mistake to think that everyone would feel negatively about what I described—especially people with a trudging painful physical life and no real prospects for anything else. If you're a serf with a short brutal life, then a few centuries of fun followed by an eternal blissful serenity might sound pretty damn wonderful.
But more relevantly, this is the natural cycle of the multiverse. Yes, if you place your own personal autonomy over the natural processes of existence—if you think you are so important that your specific personality must be preserved at all costs, forever—then I suppose you would feel that you should struggle against it, but doing so would be arrogant at the least and dangerously foolhardy at worst. There is no path that will prevent you from eventually being returned to this cycle—other than achieving godhood or total oblivion, e.g. the Snarl—and most of the methods of delaying it will land you in the very worst versions when you get there.
The fact is that the sort of hyper-rational analysis of your afterlife options that you're talking about simply does not happen for most people in the OOTS world. They live their lives how they see fit, and then they die and it's over.Rich Burlew
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2015-08-16, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Does the author give such a long answer often? That's kind of awesome!
Originally Posted by Kantaki
In any case, my initial question has been answered and then some. Go save the world, Roy!
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2015-08-16, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Yes, exactly. A soul, in addition to the personality traits it had in life, also generates a quantity of Soul Power™. The afterlife processes that soul so that it has less personality and the power is more available to the gods/other beings who rule that plane. This is why gods want souls to go to "their" afterlife; more dead souls equals more available power. Destroying a soul simply removes that quantity of power from the multiverse (or converts it to some unusable form, if we assume that there's conservation of energy in play) in addition to eradicating what's left of the personality.
Rich Burlew
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2015-08-16, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Who's to say this isn't happening?
Doesn't this prove that if you are good-aligned you can leave your afterlife and meet other people of good alignment?
Flaws are subjective. What may appear flawed to someone like Roy might not be to another person. And even if the afterlife has flaws, everyone is probably going to die anyways and go there. Sure millions of people who would die if the world was destroyed immediately wouldn't' be happy, but millions of people would die prematurely anyways, and it is preferable to being snarl'd.Last edited by Zmeoaice; 2015-08-16 at 03:01 PM.
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2015-08-16, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Nah.
If you need an explanation, presume that there is a zone of the Cloud Plane around the entrance to each Good plane that souls might be able to visit occasionally (with permission), but can't leave. You'll notice he basically exits the elevator, shakes Roy's hand, and then leaves. Horace could meet Eugene there, but we're talking about a very specific set of circumstances that is leaving Eugene wandering around the Cloud Plane that are not generally applicable to most people.
What are you trying to argue here? Roy is the only character that matters in this situation, because he's the only one who's actions are shown in the comic right now. If you are trying to say, "But other people would take the other side!" then yes, you're right. So?Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
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2015-08-16, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: After vs Life
So if I am reading this right (if even only vaguely right) is that the Gods created the world, souls etc using there own power.
That the destruction of souls places that power beyond use, where converting a soul to your cause provides you with that power.
So from a betting perspective the gods are betting that they can convert more souls to there cause than they lose - and so have a net gain, i.e mortals are nothing but poker chips to them
I am reminded of my earlier comment (some years ago).
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2015-08-16, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Yes, exactly. Though I would add that the process of being born and living a life increases the power available in the soul. So it's less like poker (where everyone starts with a fixed amount of cash and then they compete to trade it around), and more like the stock market (where everyone competes to pick the stocks that will grow the most before being cashed out).
Rich Burlew
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2015-08-16, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: For All The Comforts Of The Afterlife...
Hmm...
I got the notion that an important point of Roy's time in the afterlife was that he grew and changed a bit - as a person!
Now you are saying that the afterlife doesn't allow for improvement, at least not technially, in D&D terms, because he can't keep "feats" he learns and cannot "gain levels".
So, I don't know, but for me things don't fit together so well...
Or is the point of that journey that you can become a better person in the afterlife, but it doesn't help you because you can't put points in stats? And if so, what does that tell me?
Is that another joke of D&D rules for the afterlife?
Or does Roy forget other things he learns in the afterlife as well, if he stays longer?
So his grandpa teaches him a sword move, but he'll forget it because he can't spend level points or whatever on it?
When the bureaucracy angel tries to turn him into a better man by talking with him about his failurs in life, what about that? Will he forget that as well?
Sorry, I'm puzzled about this stuff, but maybe that's ok :D
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2015-08-16, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Originally Posted by dancrilis
But of course, I too am getting a strong impression of the Matrix or the Borg with this description of the afterlife.Last edited by Millstone85; 2015-08-16 at 04:27 PM.
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2015-08-16, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Perhaps because those are the kind of cultural allegories putting value in freedom and autonomy over collectivism we're so used to in the very individualistic Western world (certainly in the U.S. and Canada at least), and that we tend to resist any story or metaphysics that go against those principles?
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2015-08-16, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
I could also have stayed within D&D and compared it all to an illithid elder brain. It is a similar deal where you are given the lure of a socially responsible immortality but then have your personality erased to the benefit of one consciousness. The only difference is that the mind flayers could in theory live without an elder brain, while the OotS gods create and maintain everything.
The chaotic good gods must feel like frauds, being known as defenders of everyone's liberty, yet ruling over a plane that just can not function this way.
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2015-08-16, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Wow, this might be the most depressing thread I've ever read on these forums. Every last plane sounds downright Evil, serving only to slowly break down and erase everyone's personhood until they become as useful as possible to a small gang of elites.
It also makes it harder for me to buy that the alignment system in OOTSverse makes any sense whatsoever. If there are Good gods running planes like this, what does Good even mean? Is it just another word for "nice(r), at least in some circumstances"?Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2015-08-16, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
I see it this way:
CG gods are those that advocate for organic and free range farms, but they are not vegetarian; they still eat you in the end .
Good in D&D = self-sacrifice for the Greater Good, to ease others' suffering. Good gods use the energy from souls who have sacrificed themselves in the service of Good in the past to continue doing Good acts in the world, through the actions of their clerics.
Erasing individuality has nothing to do with Evil. Maybe Lawfulness. But I think the inner workings of the natural cycle of the Multiverse are beyond (or bigger) than the 4 cosmic forces of alignment. And all gods, even chaotic ones, are probably well aware that they are bound to those rules; or maybe it's even an essential part of their beings.Last edited by Kaiser Omnik; 2015-08-16 at 05:26 PM.
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2015-08-16, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Originally Posted by Kaiser Omnik
What alignment is 'For the greater Good'?
Good in the OotS multiverse might indeed be the greater good / lesser evil metaphysically available.Last edited by Millstone85; 2015-08-16 at 05:24 PM.
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2015-08-16, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
The alignment system in D&D is pretty messed up on its own already.
Anyway, its not like the souls are unaware of whats going on. If they feel so attached to their individuality that they don't want to go up the mountain, they don't have to. They can spend the rest of their existence having infinite one night stands at their mother's house if that's what they would rather be doing.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2015-08-16, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
Re: After vs Life
Have you guys maybe considered that you're putting more thought into this than the author did, and in demanding an explanation, you're getting a spur of the moment response, which you are then nit picking to an absurd degree?
Can we all just agree that most people don't want to kill themselves in the hopes that the afterlife will be peachy keen? That most people, I would hope, regardless of their belief system, would find destroying the world to be a bit abhorrent?
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2015-08-16, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Bingo.
And I presume everyone who has a moral problem with the gods using the mortal world to generate their sustenance will be going vegan now.
That, too.
Folks, this is exactly how the afterlife has always worked in D&D; I've maybe tweaked some specifics, but the gist is the same. Souls go to the afterlife and eventually dissolve into the substance of the Outer Plane to which they are remanded, end of story. You don't have to like it or think it's fair, but it's how it works—because like my story, D&D needs the afterlife to not be Awesome Happy Fun Times Forever or else there's no logical underpinning for why the heroes should want to save the world from destruction.
Again: The D&D metaphysical structure (and by extension, the OOTS version thereof) is not a coherent philosophical system. It's a setting for an adventure game. Trying to extrapolate it to its logical conclusion is a waste of time, because it will never resolve to anything satisfying.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
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2015-08-16, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
For the record, I don't think this afterlife as described here is necessarily such a bad thing or "depressing" as some people here put it. Sure, if I were there in OOTSworld (or a similar D&D world) I'd probably want to enjoy the learning and growth opportunities of mortal life for at least the full length of a human lifetime, probably much longer if I could help it. And, once I got to an afterlife, I'd probably want to hang around the "less evolved" bits for a few centuries too. But the thing is, there's gotta be a point when you've done all you want to do, learned all you're ever going to learn, when you've had it with your life. There's gotta be a point when you realize that even freedom can feel like a prison. Once you've experienced all you can in life and in an otherworldly afterlife, evolving into a perfect embodiment of what you believe in, of the tenets at the center of your soul... that might actually be a welcome thing. Remember, nobody's forcing you to become an "alignment battery" right away - you can stay on the lower slopes of the mountain (or the equivalent in any other plane) as long as you want. You essentially move to another level of existence when you're psychologically ready to, which means that's going to be what you want. That, in fact, sounds similar to some Eastern religions, which is of course not an appropriate topic to discuss here... but suffice to say, I can see merit in the idea. Especially since you do get to live an individual life for as long as you must.
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2015-08-16, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: For All The Comforts Of The Afterlife...
Thank you. I know that in D&D, the fate of souls is to assimilate into a blanks late for use as spiritual battery or what have you, but I did not know if you were doing the same thing in your cosmology and I don't like to assume.
Now that being said, I'm absolutely horrified at the way this cosmology works. The individuality of sentient being is eradicated by the otherworldly planes, so be used to provide energy to the gods? That offends every humanistic sentiment I have in my body. What a horrible system. Like previous posters have said, it puts a new perspective on Xykon and his "do whatever it takes to avoid the fires Down Below" attitude. The thought of being turned into a cosmic battery was used as the (flawed and stupid) premise to illustrate the evil of the Machines in the Matrix movies!
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2015-08-16, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Originally Posted by The Giant
But the OotS gods, as far as we have seen, are exactly like very powerful humans, dwarves, etc. And I suspect them of romancing mortals without calling it bestiality.
Originally Posted by The Giant
Well, that is the risk with "Word of God". When I started this thread, however, I did not demand an answer from the author himself. And when I got one anyway and saw it so detailed, I assumed it was not made on the spur of the moment.
It's cool, though.
Originally Posted by The Giant
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2015-08-16, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
What about a comparison with a world where souls simply cease to exist when they die?
I mean, you could still get good gods, even chaotic good gods, in such a cosmology, if they mainly cared about the lifetime of their followers.
Plus, in the cosmology of OOTS, not only is would the souls fare better, but by making their afterlife chaotic good, chaotic good god would even prolongate the time of individuality.
Think of it, the point of CG alignement is not immortality, it is individuality*. Even mortal indivduality.
*At least for the kind of CG some of you are thinking about, as their are many other interpretations, but hey.Black is for nitpicking.
Black is for sarcasm.
Blue is for serious.
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2015-08-17, 01:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: After vs Life
Alright then.
Now, can we hear a bit more about this "Valhala" place, pleaser?