After vs Life

[NerdyKris]

One would think "unable to have children" would be the biggest issue for a large portion of the population. Regardless of your own future plans, a lot of people want children, and this would be taking that possibility away from them.

Also, the whole free choice thing. There's a reason hive minds are considered terrifying to most people. Free will is an integral part of being human. Taking that away is universally considered a bad thing, even if the net benefit outweighs the people who are getting screwed over.

[orrion]

I hear what you're saying but you kind of showed that the exact opposite is true in the story. Roy learned a new swordfighting technique from his grandfather. That alone is proof that change and growth still happens after death. Do you mean to say that if the Stickverse had a version of Albert Einstein up in Celestia, that Roy couldn't lean physics from him if he was inclined to find it out? And when Roy's Archon that further up the mountain greater spiritual enlightenment awaited those who had tired of more base pleasures, does that statement not imply that a soul in heaven can look to better himself, implying that yes, change is possible.

No, Roy learned the basics of a new swordfighting technique. He couldn't use it effectively until he was alive and able to spend a feat on it.

[Fitzclowningham]

I think the consequences might be similar to those a outsider would face upon destruction. The Soul in question would cease to be and become part of the plane in question.

Giant, any chance you could confirm, at least for OotSverse?

[The Giant]

I hear what you're saying but you kind of showed that the exact opposite is true in the story. Roy learned a new swordfighting technique from his grandfather. That alone is proof that change and growth still happens after death.

No, Roy learned of a new swordfighting technique in Celestia, which he then mastered after returning to life. Dead souls cannot earn XP, gain levels, learn feats, or increase skills.

EDIT: I went back and read #600 and I can see how the dialogue can lead to the belief that Roy had actually mastered the technique. However, note that in panel #3, Horace reminds him he needs to spend a feat on it. If I had to reconcile that strip with what I said above, I would say that if Roy stayed in Celestia, the knowledge of the trick would have quickly faded from his mind. Even if he learned it over and over again, it would never "stick" in his head for more than a day or two.

Do you mean to say that if the Stickverse had a version of Albert Einstein up in Celestia, that Roy couldn't lean physics from him if he was inclined to find it out?

Yes, that is exactly what I mean.

And when Roy's Archon that further up the mountain greater spiritual enlightenment awaited those who had tired of more base pleasures, does that statement not imply that a soul in heaven can look to better himself, implying that yes, change is possible.

"Spiritual enlightenment" in this case means giving up attachments to the world and accepting that you are no longer part of it. If anything, it is essentially unlearning things; becoming less of an individual with a unique perspective and more of a pure embodiment of alignment. Horace is a little further on that path than Sarah because he's not still engaging in things like random hook-ups, because he understands that nothing matters anymore when you're dead. It is not some sort of eternal learning experience; it's letting go of everything you learned because you don't need it anymore. That is the only change available to dead souls.

And as far as talking to people with a different point of view, doesn't Eugene offer counter proof that statement? Supposing that there was a Eugne-clone identical in all respects to Roy's father, except that there wasn't the unfulfilled Blood Oath barring him from heaven. Would not Eugene-clone and Roy have plenty to disagree about, despite the identical entry in the alignment section of their character sheet?

Is Eugene in Celestia yet?

Hell, Durkon himself is proof that people can have identical alignments and not see eye-to-eye on every issue. That wasn't a short joke, I swear. Roy and Durkon have had disagreements despite their friendship, so I don't see why, out of the entire pool of lawful good creatures, suddenly they are cookie-cutter clones of each other after death.

Because I am saying that is specifically what the afterlife does. It makes you into a cookie-cutter clone of everyone of the same alignment. It may take centuries to do so, but all the people at the top of the mountain? Completely indistinguishable from one another. Arguably, that is the purpose of the D&D afterlife—to turn flawed mortal souls into perfect alignment-batteries, through various methodologies. In the Nine Hells, they torture you until you forget everything else. In Celestia, you meditate until you renounce all worldly concerns. In Valhalla, you party until you can't remember your own name. In Limbo, the chaos drives you mad. In Mechanus, you sit in grey cubicle stamping paperwork until you are bored into oblivion. And so on and so forth.

But more to the point, the difference in viewpoint between Durkon and Roy—assuming that Durkon would even end up in the same afterlife once you take into account his worship of Thor—is peanuts compared to the difference between Roy and Haley. If you feel like you would be totally fine never talking to anyone who doesn't more or less agree with you on everything ever again, then that's great for you, but it's a mistake to assume everyone else feels that way.

Visiting people of a different alignment...didn't Soon promise Miko that Windstriker would come to visit her as often as he was able? Whatever destination Miko ended up in, it probably wasn't Celestia. It was probably one of those less cushy places you mentioned. Yet she's going to be able to receive a visitor from Celestia from time to time, unless Soon was being Jedi-honest and really meant that the horse would visit her as often as he could, which was never. In which case he should go to hell for lying, but I digress. If the gods can issue celestial day passes to horses, why is the same impossible for mortal souls?

Because they don't. Yes, they could, but they don't.

This is not a debate. You asked why X is a certain way in this comic strip. I, the author, am telling you why. Windstriker is not a dead soul, he is a living Celestial creature; he is not bound by the same rules. He needs a pass because he is in the service of the Twelve Gods and will likely be assigned to another paladin at some point, from whom he must get permission before going on a trip. If he were unemployed, he would be free to go to whatever plane he could find a way to travel to. Dead souls have no such freedom.

I know that all analogies break down if you push them hard enough, but this is again one that contradicts something earlier. This time the contradiction is in the first paragraph of your response to me. In this situation the dangerous game of life is playing pro football and the afterlife is this kind of forced retirement. But didn't you just say earlier that you can't improve any skills you have after retirement, but here in your analogy you say that the retired players can learn poetry and basketweaving?

I think a more appropriate analogy is that players who want to play football can continue to do so. Except that they're no longer at risk for traumatic brain injury, damage to their bodies, oh, and we can now form football teams from the bool of the greatest football players across history (shared alignment provision granted). So if we still want to use the football analogy...it's like we can take the list of everyone who ever played for the 49ers and assemble the best teams possible and have them play each other without risk of injury.

No, because I am specifically telling you that is not how it works. If you want to write a story about a world where the afterlife works like that, go ahead. That's not how it works in my story.

Really, you're coming at this entirely backwards. You're saying the afterlife shouldn't have flaws, and therefore Roy should be OK with everyone dying. I'm saying that I require Roy to be not OK with everyone dying in order to continue the story, and therefore the afterlife must have flaws (and here they are). Since the goal here is for me to continue to tell the story I have imagined, my position wins.

[pendell]

Thank you, Mr Burlew, for the detailed and thought-out response.

A follow up question, if I may.

Does this mean that Xykon and the rest of our lawful evil villains are *right*?

I remember that when Darth V took on Xykon, he was mocked for being attached to two souls which didn't have what it took to avoid hell -- become a lich, or even a brain in a jar, to avoid the Big Fire below.

If I'm reading your logic correctly, if the final outcome of the afterlife -- not just for evil souls , but for all souls -- is to be turned into an "alignment battery" completely indistinguishable from every other -- then shouldn't every living creature with regard for its own freedom and dignity be seeking to AVOID the afterlife? Not just the evil afterlife, but ANY afterlife?

Therefore, should not every wizard of sufficiently high power and wisdom to understand this, be laboring night and day to achieve immortality, not only for himself but for his loved ones?

If anything, the first-level paradise Roy experienced in the celestial realm could be thought of as "bait" to a trap -- people go willingly to the afterlife to seek rewards, but the "trap" is that they are essentially boiled down into a sludge , indecipherable one from another.

Why should not mortals, then, defy the gods and seek their own way after death?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dancrilis]

I kindof have to agree, I could see a lot of lawful people making the decision that becoming a more perfect embodiment of there chosen viewpoint and helping that viewpoint along at a cosmic scale is the correct thing - but someone who embraces individuality (like a lot of chaotic people) should probably go for being a Lich (or a baelnorn of similar).

Perhaps some people simply stay at the first level of the afterlife and never move on to the higher/lower levels - that could work I suppose.

[Razade]

Thank you, Mr Burlew, for the detailed and thought-out response.

A follow up question, if I may.

Does this mean that Xykon and the rest of our lawful evil villains are *right*?

I remember that when Darth V took on Xykon, he was mocked for being attached to two souls which didn't have what it took to avoid hell -- become a lich, or even a brain in a jar, to avoid the Big Fire below.

If I'm reading your logic correctly, if the final outcome of the afterlife -- not just for evil souls , but for all souls -- is to be turned into an "alignment battery" completely indistinguishable from every other -- then shouldn't every living creature with regard for its own freedom and dignity be seeking to AVOID the afterlife? Not just the evil afterlife, but ANY afterlife?

Therefore, should not every wizard of sufficiently high power and wisdom to understand this, be laboring night and day to achieve immortality, not only for himself but for his loved ones?

If anything, the first-level paradise Roy experienced in the celestial realm could be thought of as "bait" to a trap -- people go willingly to the afterlife to seek rewards, but the "trap" is that they are essentially boiled down into a sludge , indecipherable one from another.

Why should not mortals, then, defy the gods and seek their own way after death?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

He in no way said any of that. Like at all. He mentioned one afterlife and pointed out people who did not fall into that camp. You're taking him wildly out of context.

[NerdyKris]

Leave it to this forum to actively seek out reasons for the story to end with a literal Deus Ex Machina.

[The Giant]

Does this mean that Xykon and the rest of our lawful evil villains are *right*?

I remember that when Darth V took on Xykon, he was mocked for being attached to two souls which didn't have what it took to avoid hell -- become a lich, or even a brain in a jar, to avoid the Big Fire below.

If I'm reading your logic correctly, if the final outcome of the afterlife -- not just for evil souls , but for all souls -- is to be turned into an "alignment battery" completely indistinguishable from every other -- then shouldn't every living creature with regard for its own freedom and dignity be seeking to AVOID the afterlife? Not just the evil afterlife, but ANY afterlife?

Therefore, should not every wizard of sufficiently high power and wisdom to understand this, be laboring night and day to achieve immortality, not only for himself but for his loved ones?

If anything, the first-level paradise Roy experienced in the celestial realm could be thought of as "bait" to a trap -- people go willingly to the afterlife to seek rewards, but the "trap" is that they are essentially boiled down into a sludge , indecipherable one from another.

Why should not mortals, then, defy the gods and seek their own way after death?

There are a lot of different viewpoints in the world, and it would be a mistake to think that everyone would feel negatively about what I described—especially people with a trudging painful physical life and no real prospects for anything else. If you're a serf with a short brutal life, then a few centuries of fun followed by an eternal blissful serenity might sound pretty damn wonderful.

But more relevantly, this is the natural cycle of the multiverse. Yes, if you place your own personal autonomy over the natural processes of existence—if you think you are so important that your specific personality must be preserved at all costs, forever—then I suppose you would feel that you should struggle against it, but doing so would be arrogant at the least and dangerously foolhardy at worst. There is no path that will prevent you from eventually being returned to this cycle—other than achieving godhood or total oblivion, e.g. the Snarl—and most of the methods of delaying it will land you in the very worst versions when you get there.

The fact is that the sort of hyper-rational analysis of your afterlife options that you're talking about simply does not happen for most people in the OOTS world. They live their lives how they see fit, and then they die and it's over.

[Millstone85]

Does the author give such a long answer often? That's kind of awesome!

What exactly are the consequences of being destroyed in the afterlife?

I think the consequences might be similar to those a outsider would face upon destruction. The Soul in question would cease to be and become part of the plane in question.

If I understand The Giant correctly, every afterlife has a long complicated process to make each soul surrender their individuality and become a part of the plane. If it were as simple as killing the soul again... Well, I could see the good aligned afterlives wanting a soul's consent, or some evil aligned ones finding the easy solution too boring, but there is probably another reason. Maybe destroyed souls are just that, destroyed, whereas processed souls still exist, if only on a very very technical level.

In any case, my initial question has been answered and then some. Go save the world, Roy!

[The Giant]

Maybe destroyed souls are just that, destroyed, whereas processed souls still exist, if only on a very very technical level.

Yes, exactly. A soul, in addition to the personality traits it had in life, also generates a quantity of Soul Power™. The afterlife processes that soul so that it has less personality and the power is more available to the gods/other beings who rule that plane. This is why gods want souls to go to "their" afterlife; more dead souls equals more available power. Destroying a soul simply removes that quantity of power from the multiverse (or converts it to some unusable form, if we assume that there's conservation of energy in play) in addition to eradicating what's left of the personality.

[Zmeoaice]

If I'm reading your logic correctly, if the final outcome of the afterlife -- not just for evil souls , but for all souls -- is to be turned into an "alignment battery" completely indistinguishable from every other -- then shouldn't every living creature with regard for its own freedom and dignity be seeking to AVOID the afterlife? Not just the evil afterlife, but ANY afterlife?

Therefore, should not every wizard of sufficiently high power and wisdom to understand this, be laboring night and day to achieve immortality, not only for himself but for his loved ones?

Who's to say this isn't happening?

never visit anywhere else, and never see any friends or family members who did not share the exact same shade of alignment as you. Oh, and you can still be destroyed by evil adventurers, but you never get any better at defending yourself.

Doesn't this prove that if you are good-aligned you can leave your afterlife and meet other people of good alignment?

Really, you're coming at this entirely backwards. You're saying the afterlife shouldn't have flaws, and therefore Roy should be OK with everyone dying. I'm saying that I require Roy to be not OK with everyone dying in order to continue the story, and therefore the afterlife must have flaws (and here they are). Since the goal here is for me to continue to tell the story I have imagined, my position wins.

Flaws are subjective. What may appear flawed to someone like Roy might not be to another person. And even if the afterlife has flaws, everyone is probably going to die anyways and go there. Sure millions of people who would die if the world was destroyed immediately wouldn't' be happy, but millions of people would die prematurely anyways, and it is preferable to being snarl'd.

[The Giant]

Doesn't this prove that if you are good-aligned you can leave your afterlife and meet other people of good alignment?

Nah.

If you need an explanation, presume that there is a zone of the Cloud Plane around the entrance to each Good plane that souls might be able to visit occasionally (with permission), but can't leave. You'll notice he basically exits the elevator, shakes Roy's hand, and then leaves. Horace could meet Eugene there, but we're talking about a very specific set of circumstances that is leaving Eugene wandering around the Cloud Plane that are not generally applicable to most people.

Flaws are subjective. What may appear flawed to someone like Roy might not be to another person. And even if the afterlife has flaws, everyone is probably going to die anyways and go there. Sure millions of people who would die if the world was destroyed immediately wouldn't' be happy, but millions of people would die prematurely anyways, and it is preferable to being snarl'd.

What are you trying to argue here? Roy is the only character that matters in this situation, because he's the only one who's actions are shown in the comic right now. If you are trying to say, "But other people would take the other side!" then yes, you're right. So?

[dancrilis]

Yes, exactly. A soul, in addition to the personality traits it had in life, also generates a quantity of Soul Power™. The afterlife processes that soul so that it has less personality and the power is more available to the gods/other beings who rule that plane. This is why gods want souls to go to "their" afterlife; more dead souls equals more available power. Destroying a soul simply removes that quantity of power from the multiverse (or converts it to some unusable form, if we assume that there's conservation of energy in play) in addition to eradicating what's left of the personality.

So if I am reading this right (if even only vaguely right) is that the Gods created the world, souls etc using there own power.
That the destruction of souls places that power beyond use, where converting a soul to your cause provides you with that power.

So from a betting perspective the gods are betting that they can convert more souls to there cause than they lose - and so have a net gain, i.e mortals are nothing but poker chips to them

I am reminded of my earlier comment (some years ago).

The amount of lack of understanding the Xykon receives makes me sad.

Here is a man that has been put down by people all his life, but who consistently rose above their petty insults to make something of himself.

Than he is nearing the end of his life and he finds out that the gods have been playing everyone as chumps since before the beginning of the world and he is offered a chance to even the playing field.

Here is one man who is reviled for daring to have the audacity to indicate that regular people can have control over their own lives - that ultra-powerful outsiders can be stood up to.
He should be a beacon of hope in the darkness - a shining light for the mortal races to look to and admire. But instead for his idiosyncrasies he is hated and feared.

Truly he is the tragic hero of the Order of the Stick.

[The Giant]

So if I am reading this right (if even only vaguely right) is that the Gods created the world, souls etc using there own power.
That the destruction of souls places that power beyond use, where converting a soul to your cause provides you with that power.

So from a betting perspective the gods are betting that they can convert more souls to there cause than they lose - and so have a net gain, i.e mortals are nothing but poker chips to them=

Yes, exactly. Though I would add that the process of being born and living a life increases the power available in the soul. So it's less like poker (where everyone starts with a fixed amount of cash and then they compete to trade it around), and more like the stock market (where everyone competes to pick the stocks that will grow the most before being cashed out).

[Mightymosy]

No, Roy learned of a new swordfighting technique in Celestia, which he then mastered after returning to life. Dead souls cannot earn XP, gain levels, learn feats, or increase skills.

EDIT: I went back and read #600 and I can see how the dialogue can lead to the belief that Roy had actually mastered the technique. However, note that in panel #3, Horace reminds him he needs to spend a feat on it. If I had to reconcile that strip with what I said above, I would say that if Roy stayed in Celestia, the knowledge of the trick would have quickly faded from his mind. Even if he learned it over and over again, it would never "stick" in his head for more than a day or two.



Yes, that is exactly what I mean.



"Spiritual enlightenment" in this case means giving up attachments to the world and accepting that you are no longer part of it. If anything, it is essentially unlearning things; becoming less of an individual with a unique perspective and more of a pure embodiment of alignment. Horace is a little further on that path than Sarah because he's not still engaging in things like random hook-ups, because he understands that nothing matters anymore when you're dead. It is not some sort of eternal learning experience; it's letting go of everything you learned because you don't need it anymore. That is the only change available to dead souls.



Is Eugene in Celestia yet?



Because I am saying that is specifically what the afterlife does. It makes you into a cookie-cutter clone of everyone of the same alignment. It may take centuries to do so, but all the people at the top of the mountain? Completely indistinguishable from one another. Arguably, that is the purpose of the D&D afterlife—to turn flawed mortal souls into perfect alignment-batteries, through various methodologies. In the Nine Hells, they torture you until you forget everything else. In Celestia, you meditate until you renounce all worldly concerns. In Valhalla, you party until you can't remember your own name. In Limbo, the chaos drives you mad. In Mechanus, you sit in grey cubicle stamping paperwork until you are bored into oblivion. And so on and so forth.

But more to the point, the difference in viewpoint between Durkon and Roy—assuming that Durkon would even end up in the same afterlife once you take into account his worship of Thor—is peanuts compared to the difference between Roy and Haley. If you feel like you would be totally fine never talking to anyone who doesn't more or less agree with you on everything ever again, then that's great for you, but it's a mistake to assume everyone else feels that way.



Because they don't. Yes, they could, but they don't.

This is not a debate. You asked why X is a certain way in this comic strip. I, the author, am telling you why. Windstriker is not a dead soul, he is a living Celestial creature; he is not bound by the same rules. He needs a pass because he is in the service of the Twelve Gods and will likely be assigned to another paladin at some point, from whom he must get permission before going on a trip. If he were unemployed, he would be free to go to whatever plane he could find a way to travel to. Dead souls have no such freedom.



No, because I am specifically telling you that is not how it works. If you want to write a story about a world where the afterlife works like that, go ahead. That's not how it works in my story.

Really, you're coming at this entirely backwards. You're saying the afterlife shouldn't have flaws, and therefore Roy should be OK with everyone dying. I'm saying that I require Roy to be not OK with everyone dying in order to continue the story, and therefore the afterlife must have flaws (and here they are). Since the goal here is for me to continue to tell the story I have imagined, my position wins.

Hmm...
I got the notion that an important point of Roy's time in the afterlife was that he grew and changed a bit - as a person!

Now you are saying that the afterlife doesn't allow for improvement, at least not technially, in D&D terms, because he can't keep "feats" he learns and cannot "gain levels".

So, I don't know, but for me things don't fit together so well...

Or is the point of that journey that you can become a better person in the afterlife, but it doesn't help you because you can't put points in stats? And if so, what does that tell me?

Is that another joke of D&D rules for the afterlife?

Or does Roy forget other things he learns in the afterlife as well, if he stays longer?

So his grandpa teaches him a sword move, but he'll forget it because he can't spend level points or whatever on it?

When the bureaucracy angel tries to turn him into a better man by talking with him about his failurs in life, what about that? Will he forget that as well?

Sorry, I'm puzzled about this stuff, but maybe that's ok :D

[Millstone85]

Truly [Xykon] is the tragic hero of the Order of the Stick.

Well, to paraphrase The Giant's earlier post, the story requires the lich to be the villain and thus the pursuit of immortality must be evil and/or unwise while the process of life, death, afterlife and unity is the way to go.

But of course, I too am getting a strong impression of the Matrix or the Borg with this description of the afterlife.

[Kaiser Omnik]

Well, to paraphrase The Giant's earlier post, the story requires the lich to be the villain and thus the pursuit of immortality must be evil and/or unwise while the process of life, death, afterlife and unity is the way to go.

But of course, I too am getting a strong impression of the Matrix or the Borg with this description of the afterlife.

Perhaps because those are the kind of cultural allegories putting value in freedom and autonomy over collectivism we're so used to in the very individualistic Western world (certainly in the U.S. and Canada at least), and that we tend to resist any story or metaphysics that go against those principles?

[Millstone85]

Perhaps because those are the kind of cultural allegories putting value in freedom and autonomy over collectivism we're so used to in the very individualistic Western world (certainly in the U.S. and Canada at least), and that we tend to resist any story or metaphysics that go against those principles?

I could also have stayed within D&D and compared it all to an illithid elder brain. It is a similar deal where you are given the lure of a socially responsible immortality but then have your personality erased to the benefit of one consciousness. The only difference is that the mind flayers could in theory live without an elder brain, while the OotS gods create and maintain everything.

The chaotic good gods must feel like frauds, being known as defenders of everyone's liberty, yet ruling over a plane that just can not function this way.

[Emanick]

Wow, this might be the most depressing thread I've ever read on these forums. Every last plane sounds downright Evil, serving only to slowly break down and erase everyone's personhood until they become as useful as possible to a small gang of elites.

It also makes it harder for me to buy that the alignment system in OOTSverse makes any sense whatsoever. If there are Good gods running planes like this, what does Good even mean? Is it just another word for "nice(r), at least in some circumstances"?

[Kaiser Omnik]

I could also have stayed within D&D and compared it all to an illithid elder brain. It is a similar deal where you are given the lure of a socially responsible immortality but then have your personality erased to the benefit of one consciousness. The only difference is that the mind flayers could in theory live without an elder brain, while the OotS gods create and maintain everything.

The chaotic good gods must feel like frauds, being known as defenders of everyone's liberty, yet ruling over a plane that just can not function this way.

I see it this way:
CG gods are those that advocate for organic and free range farms, but they are not vegetarian; they still eat you in the end .

Wow, this might be the most depressing thread I've ever read on these forums. Every last plane sounds downright Evil, serving only to slowly break down and erase everyone's personhood until they become as useful as possible to a small gang of elites.

It also makes it harder for me to buy that the alignment system in OOTSverse makes any sense whatsoever. If there are Good gods running planes like this, what does Good even mean? Is it just another word for "nice(r), at least in some circumstances"?

Good in D&D = self-sacrifice for the Greater Good, to ease others' suffering. Good gods use the energy from souls who have sacrificed themselves in the service of Good in the past to continue doing Good acts in the world, through the actions of their clerics.

Erasing individuality has nothing to do with Evil. Maybe Lawfulness. But I think the inner workings of the natural cycle of the Multiverse are beyond (or bigger) than the 4 cosmic forces of alignment. And all gods, even chaotic ones, are probably well aware that they are bound to those rules; or maybe it's even an essential part of their beings.

[Millstone85]

Wow, this might be the most depressing thread I've ever read on these forums. Every last plane sounds downright Evil, serving only to slowly break down and erase everyone's personhood until they become as useful as possible to a small gang of elites.

It also makes it harder for me to buy that the alignment system in OOTSverse makes any sense whatsoever. If there are Good gods running planes like this, what does Good even mean? Is it just another word for "nice(r), at least in some circumstances"?

Good in D&D = self-sacrifice for the Greater Good, to ease others' suffering. Good gods use the energy from souls who have sacrificed themselves in the service of Good in the past to continue doing Good acts in the world, through the actions of their clerics.

This reminds me of another thread.

What alignment is 'For the greater Good'?

Good in the OotS multiverse might indeed be the greater good / lesser evil metaphysically available.

[Keltest]

Wow, this might be the most depressing thread I've ever read on these forums. Every last plane sounds downright Evil, serving only to slowly break down and erase everyone's personhood until they become as useful as possible to a small gang of elites.

It also makes it harder for me to buy that the alignment system in OOTSverse makes any sense whatsoever. If there are Good gods running planes like this, what does Good even mean? Is it just another word for "nice(r), at least in some circumstances"?

The alignment system in D&D is pretty messed up on its own already.

Anyway, its not like the souls are unaware of whats going on. If they feel so attached to their individuality that they don't want to go up the mountain, they don't have to. They can spend the rest of their existence having infinite one night stands at their mother's house if that's what they would rather be doing.

[NerdyKris]

Have you guys maybe considered that you're putting more thought into this than the author did, and in demanding an explanation, you're getting a spur of the moment response, which you are then nit picking to an absurd degree?

Can we all just agree that most people don't want to kill themselves in the hopes that the afterlife will be peachy keen? That most people, I would hope, regardless of their belief system, would find destroying the world to be a bit abhorrent?

[The Giant]

I see it this way:
CG gods are those that advocate for organic and free range farms, but they are not vegetarian; they still eat you in the end .

Bingo.

And I presume everyone who has a moral problem with the gods using the mortal world to generate their sustenance will be going vegan now.

Have you guys maybe considered that you're putting more thought into this than the author did, and in demanding an explanation, you're getting a spur of the moment response, which you are then nit picking to an absurd degree?

Can we all just agree that most people don't want to kill themselves in the hopes that the afterlife will be peachy keen? That most people, I would hope, regardless of their belief system, would find destroying the world to be a bit abhorrent?

That, too.

Folks, this is exactly how the afterlife has always worked in D&D; I've maybe tweaked some specifics, but the gist is the same. Souls go to the afterlife and eventually dissolve into the substance of the Outer Plane to which they are remanded, end of story. You don't have to like it or think it's fair, but it's how it works—because like my story, D&D needs the afterlife to not be Awesome Happy Fun Times Forever or else there's no logical underpinning for why the heroes should want to save the world from destruction.

Again: The D&D metaphysical structure (and by extension, the OOTS version thereof) is not a coherent philosophical system. It's a setting for an adventure game. Trying to extrapolate it to its logical conclusion is a waste of time, because it will never resolve to anything satisfying.

[SirKazum]

For the record, I don't think this afterlife as described here is necessarily such a bad thing or "depressing" as some people here put it. Sure, if I were there in OOTSworld (or a similar D&D world) I'd probably want to enjoy the learning and growth opportunities of mortal life for at least the full length of a human lifetime, probably much longer if I could help it. And, once I got to an afterlife, I'd probably want to hang around the "less evolved" bits for a few centuries too. But the thing is, there's gotta be a point when you've done all you want to do, learned all you're ever going to learn, when you've had it with your life. There's gotta be a point when you realize that even freedom can feel like a prison. Once you've experienced all you can in life and in an otherworldly afterlife, evolving into a perfect embodiment of what you believe in, of the tenets at the center of your soul... that might actually be a welcome thing. Remember, nobody's forcing you to become an "alignment battery" right away - you can stay on the lower slopes of the mountain (or the equivalent in any other plane) as long as you want. You essentially move to another level of existence when you're psychologically ready to, which means that's going to be what you want. That, in fact, sounds similar to some Eastern religions, which is of course not an appropriate topic to discuss here... but suffice to say, I can see merit in the idea. Especially since you do get to live an individual life for as long as you must.

[BenjCano]

The Giant provides a detailed response

Thank you. I know that in D&D, the fate of souls is to assimilate into a blanks late for use as spiritual battery or what have you, but I did not know if you were doing the same thing in your cosmology and I don't like to assume.


Now that being said, I'm absolutely horrified at the way this cosmology works. The individuality of sentient being is eradicated by the otherworldly planes, so be used to provide energy to the gods? That offends every humanistic sentiment I have in my body. What a horrible system. Like previous posters have said, it puts a new perspective on Xykon and his "do whatever it takes to avoid the fires Down Below" attitude. The thought of being turned into a cosmic battery was used as the (flawed and stupid) premise to illustrate the evil of the Machines in the Matrix movies!

[Millstone85]

I see it this way:
CG gods are those that advocate for organic and free range farms, but they are not vegetarian; they still eat you in the end .

Bingo.

And I presume everyone who has a moral problem with the gods using the mortal world to generate their sustenance will be going vegan now.

If the OotS gods were more alien, like Angel's Powers That Be or whatever your idea of a benevolent Great Old One is, I could get behind that comparison. Most people, I think, would continue to raise livestock and just accept that the Elder Flumph will come for them in turn.

But the OotS gods, as far as we have seen, are exactly like very powerful humans, dwarves, etc. And I suspect them of romancing mortals without calling it bestiality.

Have you guys maybe considered that you're putting more thought into this than the author did, and in demanding an explanation, you're getting a spur of the moment response, which you are then nit picking to an absurd degree?

Can we all just agree that most people don't want to kill themselves in the hopes that the afterlife will be peachy keen? That most people, I would hope, regardless of their belief system, would find destroying the world to be a bit abhorrent?

That, too.

Oh...

Well, that is the risk with "Word of God". When I started this thread, however, I did not demand an answer from the author himself. And when I got one anyway and saw it so detailed, I assumed it was not made on the spur of the moment.

It's cool, though.

Again: The D&D metaphysical structure (and by extension, the OOTS version thereof) is not a coherent philosophical system. It's a setting for an adventure game. Trying to extrapolate it to its logical conclusion is a waste of time, because it will never resolve to anything satisfying.

I do not read your comic in the hope that its conclusion will make it all worth it, I read it because the adventure itself is awesome. Same goes for forum exercises in world building. Same goes for life itself, or am I being pretentious now?

[Synar]

What about a comparison with a world where souls simply cease to exist when they die?

I mean, you could still get good gods, even chaotic good gods, in such a cosmology, if they mainly cared about the lifetime of their followers.

Plus, in the cosmology of OOTS, not only is would the souls fare better, but by making their afterlife chaotic good, chaotic good god would even prolongate the time of individuality.

Think of it, the point of CG alignement is not immortality, it is individuality*. Even mortal indivduality.




*At least for the kind of CG some of you are thinking about, as their are many other interpretations, but hey.

[Mightymosy]

Alright then.

Now, can we hear a bit more about this "Valhala" place, pleaser?