So the gang has been on the airship for almost a year now (spoilers)

[Acacia Paladin]

Remember when OOTS was so popular that you couldn't even get on the site to see the latest page? Remember when the comic updated 2-3 times a week? Remember all the times Burlew insisted that he knew where the story was going? Remember all the fan incentives for supporting the comic?

According to the Wiki, the Order got on the airship to chase Durkon on March 7th, 2016. It's been almost 40 pages since then, and here we're seeing some of the least interesting storytelling of the entire comic now. The brief interlude with the paladins and Xykon was kind of interesting, but otherwise the gang is just fighting some giants (usually off-panel) and now there's a mutiny among a bunch of characters that we otherwise have no need to care about (I sure don't care about them), but we'll probably have to spend another 15-20 pages following them anyway. How much of this "arc" is going to make up a book?

In the meantime we get plenty of updates about all the wonderful stuff for sale. It doesn't matter how quickly or slowly the comics come out now because crap will always be up for sale. There's no need to send out freebies for votes anymore because there's a big enough fanbase that's willing to stick around and maybe throw money at $19 PDFs (srsly?). We don't even see guest comics, and there's probably not going to be a guest comic by Burlew because it doesn't pay. Like calendars? You can still buy the 2016 one if you're so inclined to remember the Year of the Dumpster Fire.

At this point I'm still following the story out of habit and because I'm invested enough in the story to see it to the end (hopefully before middle age). I completely understood when Burlew took hiatuses in the past, and when he injured his hand I had no problem with him taking as long as he needed to have it heal properly. I don't expect to see updates as frequent as in years past (and agree that it was not a healthy or sustainable schedule in the long run), but really the amount of story that gets covered in the span of time we're seeing, and the quality of the humor and storytelling lately, just seems to me that OOTS has become more of a marketable enterprise and less of a tale.

If there really is an end to the story, get there. If not, maybe stop leading us on about it.

[Kish]

I remember when posts saying, "This asterisks is stupid! Get it out of the way and get back to the Real Story!" went up all the time.

Oh wait--that's right now and always.

(I don't, however, remember being unable to get on the site to see the latest page because of the comic's popularity rather than an outage of a type which needed to be corrected. And...considering I started reading when the Order was still in the Dungeon of Dorukan...that suggests hyperbole. I do remember when the reader base was maybe a couple hundred people; it's the largest it's ever been now. You do not have the support you imply for "make the stupid Mechane crew go away because no one cares about them"; vexing as I find the ongoing push to make Andi some kind of misunderstood hero, a number of people manifestly do care about her, or their conception of her, as people previously cared about Tarquin, Malack, Laurin, Girard, or their conception(s) of same.)

[hroþila]

"Where are the guest comics?!?!" is a complaint I never expected to see, I admit.

[RighteousWarior]

For those wondering, this current arc since the art upgrade now consists of 119 pages.

That's the length of Dungeon Crawlin' fools.

It's...a ton of world building for sure, but I feel like the vampire Durkon thing is pretty interesting and we've had some laughs and the whole "end of the world thing" is finally coming full circle. So, actually, this book has been pretty interesting so far.

Still, blood runs in the family was a tremendous high note in this series. Considering how much it dragged on at first, I'm not really surprised at Rich's approach for this volume.

[littlebum2002]

According to the Wiki, the Order got on the airship to chase Durkon on March 7th, 2016. It's been almost 40 pages since then, and here we're seeing some of the least interesting storytelling of the entire comic now. The brief interlude with the paladins and Xykon was kind of interesting, but otherwise the gang is just fighting some giants (usually off-panel) and now there's a mutiny among a bunch of characters that we otherwise have no need to care about (I sure don't care about them), but we'll probably have to spend another 15-20 pages following them anyway. How much of this "arc" is going to make up a book?

You pretty much just described Don't Split the Party, which had little to nothing in the way of advancing the "main plot" yet was still a very solid book.

In the meantime we get plenty of updates about all the wonderful stuff for sale. It doesn't matter how quickly or slowly the comics come out now because crap will always be up for sale. There's no need to send out freebies for votes anymore because there's a big enough fanbase that's willing to stick around and maybe throw money at $19 PDFs (srsly?). We don't even see guest comics, and there's probably not going to be a guest comic by Burlew because it doesn't pay. Like calendars? You can still buy the 2016 one if you're so inclined to remember the Year of the Dumpster Fire.

I mean, you do realize this is his job, right? How else do you expect him to pay for rent and food?

[Kish]

Rich mentioned that he thought the current book was a third over when they left the Godsmoot, if I recall correctly. Probably about half over now, unless it runs long, which it well may.

[Jasdoif]

Rich mentioned that he thought the current book was a third over when they left the Godsmoot, if I recall correctly.

Indeed, it was mentioned when the scene at the Godsmoot was wrapping up around 1016; and I suspect most of the post still applies now:

The reason that this scene is not the climactic pay-off that everyone seems to be looking for is because this is not the climax of this story. This is the beginning of this story. The point of this scene was to elucidate the stakes for the rest of this plotline and set up the conflict, so complaining that it does not resolve said conflict is completely missing the point.

This is the equivalent of the scene where Tarquin stands on the balcony and tells Elan about how he's schemed to bring three nations under his control and how they're going to have a great duel someday, and Elan looks on in horror at the giant flaming letters. Which, if you'll remember, occurred one-third of the way through the last book, about where we are now. In both cases, the point of the scene was to get the heroes on board with the conflict that would form the main body of the book. Because, as I intimated in the main discussion thread: This "Durkon stuff" is the main plot. If the only plotline that matters to you is what happens with Xykon, then yes, I would expect that the next year or two are going to be rough for you. But there's a long ways to go on this book, and it will have direct and unskippable ramifications on everything that will happen in the final book. The plot of OOTS is saving the world, and the world needs saving in this way right now.

If you just don't like what's happening...well, that's unfortunate. But there's approximately a 0% chance of me altering any aspect of it to meet the short-term goal of keeping every reader happy during every stretch of the story. My goal is to write a story that works well when collected, because the period of time that the story will be available to read as a whole will be much, much longer than the period of time that it will be available to read only up to this point. I care more about the final quality of the entire story than I do about the reaction to any one group of strips, and this group of strips is required to reach other strips that you might enjoy more. You can disagree with those priorities, if you wish, but it won't change my mind. In twenty years, you will have forgotten all about the Order of the Stick, but I will still be judged for it—a judgment that will be rendered on the entire story, not just these few pages.

Also, I strongly suspect that a lot of the complaints are actually veiled criticisms about my update schedule, because the "eternal political debate" has taken up about 6 pages so far, interspersed with two different fight scenes and some character introspection. To which I say: I don't change the content of the comic based on how quickly I'm able to produce it.

[ThePhantasm]

Its weird when people make demands of an author/artist who is essentially giving his product to them for free. If you don't like the current update speed, take a break and come back in a year. You'll have plenty to read. No one is forcing you to wait for each update.

[Kish]

I'm wondering about this:

How much of this "arc" is going to make up a book?

Is the OP under the impression that the books leave out some of the strips that go up on the website?

[ref]

According to what wiki?

[Morquard]

Wait a second, aren't posts that essentially boil down to "The comic updates too slowly" forbidden?

[Acacia Paladin]

I mean, you do realize this is his job, right? How else do you expect him to pay for rent and food?

If he can't do the job he should quit.

As it appears now, he's producing very little content and expecting to live off of a lot of merchandise. The past year of comics has been very poor except for the artwork, yet most of the news posts have been about what he wants us to buy or the logistics of selling it to us.

Its weird when people make demands of an author/artist who is essentially giving his product to them for free. If you don't like the current update speed, take a break and come back in a year. You'll have plenty to read. No one is forcing you to wait for each update.

It's not really that weird. I came to follow OOTS because I liked the story and because I wanted to contribute to the readership, and eventually buy the books. It's become apparent to me that OOTS now is more about selling the merchandise and less about continuing the story. There's not a lot of fan appreciation anymore. I think the first crack in my faith in Burlew and OOTS came when he conveniently discovered the "lost" Christmas ornament featuring Miko while his hand was healing (and I bet he could have thrown it together with his off-hand). I had no problem with Burlew taking the time to have his hand heal properly, but there was certainly no break from the salesmanship to be tolerated.

What's weird is the die-hard fans coming out to defend the idea of a tortured, starving artist who is giving his work for free for the benefit of humankind from people who expect a masterpiece handed to them for free. OOTS wasn't started with the expectation of being someone's career--it was something Burlew was doing because he had a story to tell and wanted an audience to tell it to. If that wasn't the case, then what was the point of all those reader incentives to vote back in the day? He would have been selling it a buck a page if it was about making a career. No, it's just something that has become over time a marketable enterprise to wring cash out of, and that's what we've seen happen here in the past year (and maybe longer). The thing is, Burlew is not the only creator of Internet media that does this--other creative minds I've followed have gone from working for the sake of the art to pushing the collection plate with such things as excessive ads and "premium content."

Someone suggested that I come back in a year's time, but what good will waiting another 35-40 strips do? Will Roy and the gang still be fighting the giants?

[Acacia Paladin]

Wait a second, aren't posts that essentially boil down to "The comic updates too slowly" forbidden?

This is not one of those topics. This is a criticism of the quality of the comic and a questioning of the creator's motivation.

Again, I had no problem with the hiatuses, especially when Burlew injured his hand. This is not about the rate of the comic updates.

I even mentioned somewhere that I agreed that 2-3 updates a week (as it was in ages past) was unsustainable and unhealthy.

[Rakoa]

Wait a second, aren't posts that essentially boil down to "The comic updates too slowly" forbidden?

Oh yeah, baby. Comment while you can, cuz this thing is gettin' locked.

[Acacia Paladin]

Oh yeah, baby. Comment while you can, cuz this thing is gettin' locked.

In that case anyone who locks it should consider putting a few skill points into Literacy (English).

[Peelee]

Oh, sweet paladin.

That you think it is uninteresting does not mean that others think it is uninteresting.

[The Giant]

If he can't do the job he should quit.

No.

I think the first crack in my faith in Burlew and OOTS came when he conveniently discovered the "lost" Christmas ornament featuring Miko while his hand was healing (and I bet he could have thrown it together with his off-hand). I had no problem with Burlew taking the time to have his hand heal properly, but there was certainly no break from the salesmanship to be tolerated.

Bills keep coming whether or not I can draw new comics. It's hopelessly naive to think that a 3-month gap in my ability to earn income would be something I could just absorb. There will never be a break in the salesmanship because there will never be an end to my bills, because we live in a capitalist society where one must earn money to eat. If you want me to stop selling products, install a socialist regime that has a generous attitude toward the cultural arts so I can have my living expenses covered for me.

What's weird is the die-hard fans coming out to defend the idea of a tortured, starving artist who is giving his work for free for the benefit of humankind from people who expect a masterpiece handed to them for free. OOTS wasn't started with the expectation of being someone's career--it was something Burlew was doing because he had a story to tell and wanted an audience to tell it to.

No, Wrong. Absolutely false. When I created this comic, I had no story, no goal, no nothing. I made this website as an attempt to launch a game design career because I had come in second place in that WOTC contest. I created the comic a few months later because I needed something to give people a reason to come back to the site and see my newest gaming article, so I decided to do a comic strip. I chose to do a gaming comic because I thought it would maximize interest among the people I was looking to draw to my site. I did so specifically toward the goal of having a career away from graphic design; it was always for the purpose of being a job. The story didn't come until later. This idea of a tortured labor of love that you're trying to project onto me is based on literally nothing. Certainly nothing I've ever said publicly. I love my comic, but I wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't making money at it. I wouldn't be able to do it, I'd have to spend my time earning money.

If that wasn't the case, then what was the point of all those reader incentives to vote back in the day? He would have been selling it a buck a page if it was about making a career.

This is a ridiculous misunderstanding of how commerce works. No one would have paid for a comic they never heard of. You have to create value by showing the customer that they like it. It's a free sample, a loss leader. The incentive comics back then were done because moving up those ranking sites put the comic's name in front of other people's eyes. It was a marketing tool. And it was done during the period when I still had a day job to cover my expenses.

In fact, what you don't seem to understand is that the entire free comic is a loss leader. Take away the books and the PDFs and the t-shirts, and I have no legitimate business reason to post the free comic anymore. This is a book publishing business that happens to put out free preview pages every so often.

The thing is, Burlew is not the only creator of Internet media that does this--other creative minds I've followed have gone from working for the sake of the art to pushing the collection plate with such things as excessive ads and "premium content."

Yes, which should tell you something: that it's very hard to make a living doing art that you give away free on the internet! You treat making money like it's a sin, like we're supposed to be doing it for the love of art. The love of art does not pay my health insurance.

Here's the bottom line: This is a business. It is a business of selling a creative work, but it is still a business. Some people give me money for the work I do; most don't. I did the math once, only 4% of the people who read the comic have ever purchased a single thing from me. The business stays afloat because 1.) some portion of that 4% will buy close to everything I put out, and 2.) every product has the chance of converting some of the 96% into some of the 4%, either because this is the product they've been waiting for or because their life circumstances have changed and now they have money that they didn't have before. But it is only because of that 4% that this whole thing is viable.

Now, if you want to make the argument that I am not doing as much as I could to maximize the health of the business, that's a different story. Would it be better for the long term revenue potential if I was updating more? Of course it would. More updates keeps the comic in people's minds, which keeps them more positive toward it, which influences their purchasing decisions. There is a strong business case for me updating more. You're not making that case, but it's there to be made.

But the thing is, I can't update more. Because see, these PDFs that you're railing about? I did the work for them back in 2013. It took me like 2 days to clean them up and convert them. The reason I haven't been updating the comic is because I've been working on the stories I owe the Kickstarter backers—stories I've owed them for 5 years as of tomorrow.

It's not the products that are keeping me from working on the strip, it's the work that other people have already paid for. And whatever vague unspoken commitment I might have to the readers of the free comic, I have a concrete binding commitment to the Kickstarter backers. I already took their money, and it's long gone. I need to prioritize the work I owe them above everything else. So if I was going to change something about how I manage my time, it wouldn't be to work on the free comic. If I could, I would put the free comic on hiatus for 6 months to finish the Kickstarter work. I can't, not without both infuriating my entire readership and tanking my income...which, again, doesn't exist unless I also put out products during that time. Which slows down the rate of the Kickstarter work even more.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that I am essentially in a Catch-22, have been for 5 years, and am muddling through it as best I can, one page at a time. Sorry if that's not good enough, but it's the best I'm capable of. You are free to take it or leave it, but it's probably not changing.

And no. I'm not going to quit. Even if it takes me another 5 years to dig out.

[Kish]

Well that's interesting. Guess this thread was good for something after all (if probably not something worth what it did to your blood pressure).

It's a pity you can't put the comic on hiatus for six months.

[The Giant]

EDIT: Never mind, too much information.

[Zyzzyva]

That's, uh... that's a substantially more extensive response than I was expecting.

It's not the products that are keeping me from working on the strip, it's the work that other people have already paid for. And whatever vague unspoken commitment I might have to the readers of the free comic, I have a concrete binding commitment to the Kickstarter backers. I already took their money, and it's long gone. I need to prioritize the work I owe them above everything else. So if I was going to change something about how I manage my time, it wouldn't be to work on the free comic. If I could, I would put the free comic on hiatus for 6 months to finish the Kickstarter work. I can't, not without both infuriating my entire readership and tanking my income...which, again, doesn't exist unless I also put out products during that time. Which slows down the rate of the Kickstarter work even more.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that I am essentially in a Catch-22, have been for 5 years, and am muddling through it as best I can, one page at a time. Sorry if that's not good enough, but it's the best I'm capable of. You are free to take it or leave it, but it's probably not changing.

Speaking as a kickstarter backer and long-time reader, I'm quite satisfied with what you've done and what you're doing. I'd totally accept the six-month hiatus (or, for that matter, the deferral of the KS stuff until after book 6 or whatever) but I understand why you don't feel able to go that way.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: While there is some acceptable pacing discussion, there's also some inflammatory trolling, and some prohibited update timing discussion in the OP's comments. So I'm going to lock this now, though Rich can certainly reopen it if he'd like this particular discussion to continue.

[The Giant]

That's, uh... that's a substantially more extensive response than I was expecting.

Yeah, well, I think what people don't understand is that this is genuinely upsetting to me. It's easy to be glib and tell someone you've never met that they should throw away their sole source of income because they're not measuring up in some way, but these are real problems I struggle with every single day in my actual real life. When I sit down at the computer, I have to figure out which of the three beasts to feed: the free comic, the income-generating products, or the owed Kickstarter work. There's no right choice. The only correct answer is, "Do all three, in half the time." And I can't. So I have to make compromises, and no one is happy.

And do people think I don't constantly talk about this stuff because I'm fine with it? No, I don't talk about it because it makes me miserable and I have to try to write comedy sometimes so it helps not to think about it too much. I don't talk about it because I'm just not a "talk about it" kind of person. Like, I legitimately hate talking about my problems, I just need to sometimes to explain why someone isn't getting something they were promised.

[The Giant]

Hmmm, looks like Roland locked this thread while I was responding.

I think I'm going to defer to his wiser judgment in this case, because I'm probably going to keep writing responses and that will only lead to me getting myself in trouble somehow.