[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

[Triskavanski]

Why do you think that?

"Brew Potion: At 1st level, the mortal chemist gains Brew
Potion as a bonus feat, and a formula book containing 2 1st
level alchemist formulae. The mortal chemist may brew a potion
for any alchemist formulae he knows. Each time the mortal
chemist gains a class level, he learns 1 additional alchemist
formulae a standard alchemist of his level would have access to.
A mortal chemist can also add formulae to his book just like a
wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs, pages,
and time requirements. A mortal chemist can study a wizard’s
spellbook to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the
spellbook contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from
a formula book. A mortal chemist does not need to decipher
arcane writings before copying them."

You gain Brew Potion as a bonus feat. You get a formulae book just like a standard alchemist. You can brew any potion in the book. It does look like it could use the "An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level" line for clarity, but I suspect that was overlooked since the text was supposed to be an addition to, not a replacement of, the base class ability. I'll add a line to the end that states "This otherwise functions like and counts as the base alchemist's brew potion ability".

Aye, the problem is a few things. Giving it that bit there could help with the first issue a bit, other than without the ability to actually make an infusion, they can't get the part where

The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

[Ssalarn]

Great Focus needs 2 base spheres.

Which I think literally every martial tradition except for Free Runner automatically qualifies you for, and even Free Runner would qualify you for it the moment you took your first Alchemy talent. That's not an additional expense.

I wouldn't bring RFED to most tables and I don't need Alchemy to reach this level, I just think it it needs a boost at the lower end. Also Barraging Formulae means Cluster Toss is kind of a trap option, that should probably be abreast.

Not really. Barraging formulae requires you to buy into Barrage and Equipment, which makes it a more expensive transition. Low and mid-BAB classes are also going to get the additional BAB for extra attacks on a Barrage more slowly, so using Cluster Toss, which scales off of skill ranks, can be a much more attractive option since it saves them talents, class features, and/or feats. This is especially true for classes like Scholar that are generally going to have a high practitioner mod coupled with solid debuffing but a low BAB. Just because Quicken Spell is bad for a paladin doesn't mean that it's a bad feat; it just means that it's better for some classes than others, and the same is true with Cluster Toss.

Ultimately, the Alchemy sphere and the Formulae package offer more versatility and more value per talent than the Destruction sphere, but with less raw damage capability outside of prepared novas, and that's exactly how it should be. If it were consistently dealing comparative damage to the Destruction sphere in every situation, it would be strictly better than the Destruction sphere, and that's not a result we're interested in creating.

Aye, the problem is a few things. Giving it that bit there could help with the first issue a bit, other than without the ability to actually make an infusion, they can't get the part where

The text in the update should read as follows:
"At 1st level, the mortal chemist gains Brew
Potion as a bonus feat, and a formula book containing 2 1st
level alchemist formulae. The mortal chemist may brew a potion
for any alchemist formulae he knows. Each time the mortal
chemist gains a class level, he learns 1 additional alchemist
formulae a standard alchemist of his level would have access to (up to 3rd level formulae).
A mortal chemist can also add formulae to his book just like a
wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs, pages,
and time requirements. A mortal chemist can study a wizard’s
spellbook to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the
spellbook contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from
a formula book. A mortal chemist does not need to decipher
arcane writings before copying them. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows, using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion.
This modifies and counts as the base alchemist's brew potion class feature."


Which should cover all the bases.

[Domar]

Cluster Toss includes a large save DC penalty and its only edge pre 10 is saving Fast Draw and healing items.
Med BAB gets equal or more attacks at every level with Barrage and Combat Sphere Specialization exists.
Scholar can get full BAB with Martial Study and if they don't invest in a big attack boost they will have problems hitting 5 foot squares.
Dropping the save DC penalty would be enough, it's needlessly punitive.

The current crafting situation leads to 5th edition D&D style balance problems. Where some thing aren't balanced around at will, encounter or adventuring day but rather the timing between encounters during the adventuring day. At will and encounter are consistent. Encounters per day typically falls within certain guidelines. Encounter timing radically varies from DM to DM, campaign to campaign and adventuring day to adventuring day. You can't balance both ends of the spectrum.

[Ssalarn]

[*snip*]

Thank you for your feedback. At this time we will not be responding to further feedback related to the balance of the Formulae package of the Alchemy sphere. Feedback related to typos or rules function questions are still welcome. The primary purpose of the Alchemy sphere is to provide versatility and options to martial classes that they are normally denied. It is not intended as a martial equivalent to the Destruction sphere, though we believe its damage is more than satisfactory based on nearly a year of feedback, playtesting, and detailed and comprehensive design spreadsheets. Since we are confident in the performance of the sphere, the feedback we've received over the last year, and our own design metrics, we will focusing our time and energy on preparing the final update so we can get ready to roll into print and completing Champions of the Spheres so we can attempt to get the .pdf out to our backers before Christmas.

[Quarian Rex]

The Portal Gun option for Unethical Science in the Mad Scientist archetype for the Technician seems to have conflicting ranges listed, perhaps a holdover from different drafts. The first paragraph says that it has long range (400 ft. +40 ft. per technician level), while the fourth paragraph says it is considered a ranged weapon with a range increment of 50 ft. Either way is fine (though I prefer the long range option) but reference to the other has to be removed for the sake of clarity.

Also, is there some text missing from the Tame ability in Beastmastery? There is all kinds of info on HD limits and even opposed control checks, but despite saying that, "You may attempt to train an animal to readily obey your commands in and out of combat", the Tame ability doesn't actually provide any form of control or influence at all. It doesn't even improve the animals attitude to you. It seems like something was left out and I think that needs to be addressed.

About the Mortal Chemist...

The text in the update should read as follows:
"At 1st level, the mortal chemist gains Brew Potion as a bonus feat, and a formula book containing 2 1st
level alchemist formulae. The mortal chemist may brew a potion for any alchemist formulae he knows. Each time the mortal chemist gains a class level, he learns 1 additional alchemist formulae a standard alchemist of his level would have access to (up to 3rd level). A mortal chemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs, pages, and time requirements. A mortal chemist can study a wizard’s spellbook to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the spellbook contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from a formula book. A mortal chemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows, using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. This modifies and counts as the base alchemist's brew potion class feature."

The bolded part seems to be a straight nerf to the archetype. Previously, the Mortal Chemist had the unique ability to make potions of up to 6th level so long as they were from the Alchemist spell list (as per the current wording). I really think that this is an interesting ability that really should be left in, even if it wasn't intended. It fits the theme, doesn't imbalance things, and is a unique perk that can't be found elsewhere. It is those unique perks that make a class (or an archetype) truly memorable. You should really reconsider and keep the current 6th level limit.

[Ssalarn]

About the Mortal Chemist...

The bolded part seems to be a straight nerf to the archetype. Previously, the Mortal Chemist had the unique ability to make potions of up to 6th level so long as they were from the Alchemist spell list (as per the current wording). I really think that this is an interesting ability that really should be left in, even if it wasn't intended. It fits the theme, doesn't imbalance things, and is a unique perk that can't be found elsewhere. It is those unique perks that make a class (or an archetype) truly memorable. You should really reconsider and keep the current 6th level limit.

I don't disagree. That might entail a significant amount of extra text since the 3rd level limitation is inherent to the core rules for crafting potions, but if we can get away with just removing the 3rd level limitation and maybe a single sentence explaining that they can break the normal level cap, then I think that's feasible. We'll review it and see what we can do.

[Cybershark]

Unarmored Mastery
Prerequisites: Unarmored Training
Your mastery of unarmored combat is so great that even changes to your body do not impede you. You no longer lose the benefits of Unarmored Training when under a polymorph effect.

Someone's gonna have to explain the design and what thought went into this one to me, as I don't think I'm seeing eye-to-eye with the writers here, as this feels like a really unnecessary tax feat for Unarmored Training users using any polymorph item.

So I'm just supposed to lose the benefits of my AC bonus if I'm Unarmored and under the effect of any Polymorph? Alteration, Wildshape, even a wondrous item? I can see it kind of making sense if you're using Alteration as a pseudo-Wild Shape, but it kinda breaks down when you start using Alteration for general buffs, as it's a very wide-ranging sphere that includes movement modes, senses, and other utilitarian features without significantly boosting AC.

It just feels like a raw deal that I can get screwed out of a big portion of my AC just because I'm under a polymorph as harmless as "be two inches taller", which is part of the "change the target's cosmetic appearance" part of Blank Form. Is there any way to change this so that it applies to effects like Wild Shape or Alteration effects that explicitly say you "gain a new form?" What about an explicit exception for Blank Form/Transformation?

[Ssalarn]

Someone's gonna have to explain the design and what thought went into this one to me, as I don't think I'm seeing eye-to-eye with the writers here, as this feels like a really unnecessary tax feat for Unarmored Training users using any polymorph item.

So I'm just supposed to lose the benefits of my AC bonus if I'm Unarmored and under the effect of any Polymorph? Alteration, Wildshape, even a wondrous item? I can see it kind of making sense if you're using Alteration as a pseudo-Wild Shape, but it kinda breaks down when you start using Alteration for general buffs, as it's a very wide-ranging sphere that includes movement modes, senses, and other utilitarian features without significantly boosting AC.

It just feels like a raw deal that I can get screwed out of a big portion of my AC just because I'm under a polymorph as harmless as "be two inches taller", which is part of the "change the target's cosmetic appearance" part of Blank Form. Is there any way to change this so that it applies to effects like Wild Shape or Alteration effects that explicitly say you "gain a new form?" What about an explicit exception for Blank Form/Transformation?

The relevant wording in Unarmored Training for the update is-

"This technique involves an in-depth awareness of the practitioner’s body and balance; any active polymorph effect affecting the practitioner negates the bonus from this ability. At the GM's discretion, some polymorph changes that leave the user's body largely unchanged, such as gaining darkvision from the Alteration sphere, may not cause the user to lose this bonus."

We had looked at a couple possibilities like a more loose wording that was specific to more extensive transformations, but all that really did was narrow the number of exploits we were looking to close off, rather than actually solving the problem. We went with a solution that left some specific room for flexibility dependent on the GM, which we felt combined the best of a tight ruling without significant loopholes with the acknowledgement that there are some situations where the restriction may not be necessary.

[digiman619]

Perhaps specifying that blank form is still okay would be apporpriate.

[Quarian Rex]

I don't disagree. That might entail a significant amount of extra text since the 3rd level limitation is inherent to the core rules for crafting potions, but if we can get away with just removing the 3rd level limitation and maybe a single sentence explaining that they can break the normal level cap, then I think that's feasible. We'll review it and see what we can do.

The only thing that would be thrown off by exceeding the 3rd level limitation would be price and that is covered by the base formula of the price of a potion being equal to the level of the spell × the creator’s caster level × 50 gp found in the magic item section of the core book. No need to add text for that.

I would think that the only thing necessary would be to add, "This allows a Mortal Chemist to create potions with up to 6th level formulae using this ability, exceeding the normal limits of the Brew Potion feat". One line and I think you're covered. Specifies that it does more than the feat and limits that extra power to just what is covered by this ability. I don't think that leaves any exploitable holes.

Thoughts?

[Mithril Leaf]

The relevant wording in Unarmored Training for the update is-

"This technique involves an in-depth awareness of the practitioner’s body and balance; any active polymorph effect affecting the practitioner negates the bonus from this ability. At the GM's discretion, some polymorph changes that leave the user's body largely unchanged, such as gaining darkvision from the Alteration sphere, may not cause the user to lose this bonus."

We had looked at a couple possibilities like a more loose wording that was specific to more extensive transformations, but all that really did was narrow the number of exploits we were looking to close off, rather than actually solving the problem. We went with a solution that left some specific room for flexibility dependent on the GM, which we felt combined the best of a tight ruling without significant loopholes with the acknowledgement that there are some situations where the restriction may not be necessary.

My main question is why though? What loopholes does it have? Is there any actual reason to charge this specific combination of things a feat tax instead of other combinations of gaining AC?

[Ualaa]

A non-Might guy who takes a one level dip into Monk (for WIS to AC) or into Symbiat (for INT to AC), or perhaps does both, and then continues with their wildshape/alteration shapeshifting build... doesn't lose their AC from an alteration/wildshape type effect.

Why would someone trained in unarmed combat, as a Might practitioner?

[Mehangel]

A non-Might guy who takes a one level dip into Monk (for WIS to AC) or into Symbiat (for INT to AC), or perhaps does both, and then continues with their wildshape/alteration shapeshifting build... doesn't lose their AC from an alteration/wildshape type effect.

Why would someone trained in unarmed combat, as a Might practitioner?

I do find it strange that a Monk, Striker, Sage, Shifter (from Ultimate Wilderness), Symbiat, etc all keep their AC bonus while polymorphed, yet you would lose the benefits of Unarmored Training.

[EldritchWeaver]

The relevant wording in Unarmored Training for the update is-

"This technique involves an in-depth awareness of the practitioner’s body and balance; any active polymorph effect affecting the practitioner negates the bonus from this ability. At the GM's discretion, some polymorph changes that leave the user's body largely unchanged, such as gaining darkvision from the Alteration sphere, may not cause the user to lose this bonus."

We had looked at a couple possibilities like a more loose wording that was specific to more extensive transformations, but all that really did was narrow the number of exploits we were looking to close off, rather than actually solving the problem. We went with a solution that left some specific room for flexibility dependent on the GM, which we felt combined the best of a tight ruling without significant loopholes with the acknowledgement that there are some situations where the restriction may not be necessary.

Perhaps specifying that blank form is still okay would be apporpriate.

Blank Form isn't ironically enough. If you use the Fusion talent, the dominant form should arguably be able to use Unarmored Training. The loose approach is problematic because it leaves you at mercy of the GM. There are enough jerk GM's out there or inexperienced ones, who might jump at the chance to remove the AC bonus. If you can't create wording which is precise enough, you are leaving people out of the rain.

My main question is why though? What loopholes does it have? Is there any actual reason to charge this specific combination of things a feat tax instead of other combinations of gaining AC?

I agree. What are the problem builds? Why would requiring an additional talent make those problem builds suddenly ok?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I don't disagree. That might entail a significant amount of extra text since the 3rd level limitation is inherent to the core rules for crafting potions, but if we can get away with just removing the 3rd level limitation and maybe a single sentence explaining that they can break the normal level cap, then I think that's feasible. We'll review it and see what we can do.

If precedent is desired, look at the Druid's Herbalism option for Nature Bond. They get to make higher level potions, but it's gated by level.

[Cybershark]

Blank Form isn't ironically enough. If you use the Fusion talent, the dominant form should arguably be able to use Unarmored Training. The loose approach is problematic because it leaves you at mercy of the GM. There are enough jerk GM's out there or inexperienced ones, who might jump at the chance to remove the AC bonus. If you can't create wording which is precise enough, you are leaving people out of the rain.



I agree. What are the problem builds? Why would requiring an additional talent make those problem builds suddenly ok?

The only real "problem" build I can think of if you let Unarmored Training stack with non-Blank Form w/o the feat is a Might guy using the Transformation feat to grab plant form at level 1, then getting Unarmored Training from a tradition, then at level 6 snagging Improved Transformation and stacking the +2 Natural Armor bonus to AC from Plant Form's trait selection. It scales fast but it doesn't have as many secondary benefits from being derived from an ability score, doesn't apply to Touch AC. You do have the ability to use a shield at least.

At most you're looking at +6 AC from plant form's +4 bonus and Unarmored Training's base +2 bonus. With a Dex mod of +4 you're looking at an AC of 20 at level 1. At most, if you're going for the option that gives loads of AC. Personally I'd rather grab Avian transformation for easy flight at 6th and talon attacks, or Construct or one of the various Outsider-themed transformations, which only grant +2 AC at level 1, with options for DR/ or other features.

A Dexterity-focused Monk or Striker can get similar AC with high Dex+Wis/Con, while a guy in scale mail and using a tower shield will have 19 AC (at a cost of 80 gp), 20 if using the Shield Focus-equivalent talent from Equipment sphere, potentially higher with Shield sphere shenanigans.

The Might guy takes a tradition and a feat. The monk/striker/equivalent classes get their AC bonus from BEING a member of the class with no further investment (and they get additional benefits for having a high Wis/Cons score too). The dude in heavy armor can concievably get their AC up purely from their martial tradition (iirc there is a martial tradition that grants medium armor + tower shield proficiency and shield sphere, if not, it's not far fetched to make one). It takes

People already dip Monk and Symbiat for the stat to AC, which isn't shut down by polymorph effects. Unarmored Training is good, but it's not as good as monk AC bonus, and it IS shut down by polymorph effects.

[Kaouse]

Wouldn't it just be easier to grab the Protection Sphere, take the Protected Soul drawback, then grab the Armored Magic aegis ability? This gives you an armor bonus, a shield bonus, and a deflection bonus, all of which scale, and none of which physically count as armor to stop Unarmored Training/Monk AC bonus from working (barring unarmored training giving you a non-stacking "armor" bonus). Either way, it's certainly a lot easier and arguably more effective than whatever you can grab from Alteration, IMHO.

[Cybershark]

Wouldn't it just be easier to grab the Protection Sphere, take the Protected Soul drawback, then grab the Armored Magic aegis ability? This gives you an armor bonus, a shield bonus, and a deflection bonus, all of which scale, and none of which physically count as armor to stop Unarmored Training/Monk AC bonus from working (barring unarmored training giving you a non-stacking "armor" bonus). Either way, it's certainly a lot easier and arguably more effective than whatever you can grab from Alteration, IMHO.

Alteration is a grab bag of stuff other than AC, though: alternative senses, flight/burrow/swim speeds, resistances, and monster abilities. Protection is hyper focused on, of course, ensuring safety. I'm not just gunning for AC when I'm looking at Unarmored Training with alteration, I'm looking at the potential utility and alternative defenses I'm getting. And last I checked, the Transformation feat chain EXISTED: there isn't an equivalent for the Protection sphere.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Any suggestions for how to handle Prestige Classes? With SoP it wasn't an issue because all PrCs for spellcasters already had progression built in, but for Practitioners taking a PrC is currently almost never a good idea because none of them have "+1 Level of Martial Practitioner class" as a feature.

[digiman619]

Any suggestions for how to handle Prestige Classes? With SoP it wasn't an issue because all PrCs for spellcasters already had progression built in, but for Practitioners taking a PrC is currently almost never a good idea because none of them have "+1 Level of Martial Practitioner class" as a feature.

With respect, short of them offering rewrites to every martial and gish prestige class, this seems like something that should probably be done ad hoc.

But if I was a GM and you were asking me for a ruling, I'd probably have full BAB PrC be Expert practioners and medium BAB be Adept, but have at least one sphere that they treat the PrC as full BAB; the Assassin counting class level as BAB from class lever for Scout and Alchemy (toxin) effects and whatnot. and gish classes count as Expert practioners with the Blended Talents class feature (buy magic talents with combat talents and vice versa).

[Dr_Dinosaur]

With respect, short of them offering rewrites to every martial and gish prestige class, this seems like something that should probably be done ad hoc.

But if I was a GM and you were asking me for a ruling, I'd probably have full BAB PrC be Expert practioners and medium BAB be Adept, but have at least one sphere that they treat the PrC as full BAB; the Assassin counting class level as BAB from class lever for Scout and Alchemy (toxin) effects and whatnot. and gish classes count as Expert practioners with the Blended Talents class feature (buy magic talents with combat talents and vice versa).

Oh no, I wasn't intending to ask for rewrites or anything, just people's ideas on how to approach it at the table! Sorry if it seemed like I was.

[digiman619]

Oh no, I wasn't intending to ask for rewrites or anything, just people's ideas on how to approach it at the table! Sorry if it seemed like I was.

You're fine. As I said, it's gotta be done ad hoc, so I felt I'd best give my interpretation.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Any suggestions for how to handle Prestige Classes? With SoP it wasn't an issue because all PrCs for spellcasters already had progression built in, but for Practitioners taking a PrC is currently almost never a good idea because none of them have "+1 Level of Martial Practitioner class" as a feature.

Well, you could base it off of BAB and whether the character has a martial tradition (no taking a combat sphere with a single feat to qualify for free progression from a prestige class), or have them continue previous progression rate, maybe limited by BAB. Good point about prestige classes overall though, though given SoP's track record with prestige classes they probably won't put something into the errata for SoM, so we'll just have to figure out a workable house rule for it.

[Mehangel]

Any suggestions for how to handle Prestige Classes? With SoP it wasn't an issue because all PrCs for spellcasters already had progression built in, but for Practitioners taking a PrC is currently almost never a good idea because none of them have "+1 Level of Martial Practitioner class" as a feature.

I would personally houserule that characters who possess a Martial Tradition who multiclass into a prestige class which has High BAB would gain a extra Combat Talent every even level (as if the prestige class had a Proficient Practitioner talent progression).

[kkplx]

When using active defense with cover ally, do they gain your 2+ 1/4bab bonus to ac, or your full, modified shield bonus?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Well, you could base it off of BAB and whether the character has a martial tradition (no taking a combat sphere with a single feat to qualify for free progression from a prestige class), or have them continue previous progression rate, maybe limited by BAB. Good point about prestige classes overall though, though given SoP's track record with prestige classes they probably won't put something into the errata for SoM, so we'll just have to figure out a workable house rule for it.

I would personally houserule that characters who possess a Martial Tradition who multiclass into a prestige class which has High BAB would gain a extra Combat Talent every even level (as if the prestige class had a Proficient Practitioner talent progression).

How about this then: If you have a Martial Tradition before entering a PrC, you continue gaining talents. The rate at which you obtain new talents from levels in them is capped by their BAB. Full BAB has no cap, it's just your original progression. 3/4 caps you at Adept and 1/2 caps at Proficient.

Or maybe 1/2 PrCs shouldn't progress, or should only progress either practitioner or caster level?

[stack]

When using active defense with cover ally, do they gain your 2+ 1/4bab bonus to ac, or your full, modified shield bonus?

The cover ally bonus, not the full shield bonus.

[Geigan]

How does Vital Strike interact with the splash weapons from the Alchemy sphere? As I understand it you can use it with these weapons, but only the initial list dice would be considered base damage dice and any additional dice from higher craft alchemy would be considered a "damage bonus" for the purpose of the feat. Do I have that right or am I completely off base?

[Drifter S.]

So it's a small, silly thing that I should have thought of way back when it was the main topic, but what would the odds be of a note on Dragon/Zodiac Tattoos about being able to use Inscribe Magical Tattoo in place of Craft Arms and Armor when putting bonuses on the tattoos from the feat(s)? Not sure if that throws wrenches into anything, but it seemed like it would be a thematic thing to have, especially with the tradition those two feats are related to.

Since this seemed to have gotten buried by other discussion, wanted to nudge it again to see if I could get anything back. While doing that, though, on the topic of Martial Traditions that grant feats, what are the odds of a Tradition that grants one or more feats from the Transformation chain? (Transformation, Hybrid, Improved) in place of talents? The precedent is there now, but perhaps it's just something that's being put off touching further on until later handbooks.

[Kaouse]

Is it just me, or do Sphere Specific Drawbacks seem a lot more restricting in Spheres of Might than they do in Spheres of Power? I think a good 70% of them don't actually give you a choice in which talent you gain for taking the drawback. This is opposed to Spheres of Power, where I think only about 10% of talents actually impose a specific choice on you when you take the drawback. Can we do something about this? For a system that prides itself on customization and player choice, this seems very counterproductive.

Warleader Sphere is probably the most egregious example. If you don't want tactics then you MUST take Frightful Roar, no other shout is possible. And if you don't want shouts then you MUST take Courier’s Dash, no other tactic can be obtained. It's unnecessarily constraining, and it does nothing but increase wordcount.