OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread

[Kish]

Relevant to Belkar morality questions, I think:

For Belkar, Durkon's death takes on a meaning that it never would have before Mr. Scruffy's arrival in his life. We saw him finally grasp the beginning of empathy in the arena, but here he learns for the first time how far he truly has to go. Belkar may have heard about the idea of heroic sacrifices, but that's not really what this was. This was simply caring more about other people than yourself. Durkon's only thoughts as he is murdered are to try to keep his friends safe--even Belkar, who has never been anything but rude to him. This breaks through Belkar's cynicism; it's one thing to recognize that other people have a right to live, and another to realize that maybe you don't. And then live anyway.

[8BitNinja]

I would totally worship Belkar as a halfling god of war.

I think you would be the only one.

[Ironsmith]

I think you would be the only one.

Hey, if one's enough for Banjo...

[wumpus]

OotS drama also dictates that the family with the blood oath against Xykon has to be the one that goes against him.

Anybody waiting to discover what he was up to would be so far behind to not catch him [not quite true, the plot adjusts to fit]. Only somebody trying to kill Xykon (or perhaps Redcloak) would be able to keep up.

[Jasdoif]

How does prophecies work in the Elder Scrolls world? I've played Daggerfall and Morrowind, but I've never really followed the main quests on those games.

Without getting into all the "intentionally mysterious self-contradiction is mysterious" and deep setting aspects....The most well-known sources of prophecy in the Elder Scrolls setting are...the Elder Scrolls. Elder Scrolls are of unknown origin, possibly because being "fragments of creation from outside time itself" doesn't make any sense.

In the context of divinations, Elder Scroll archive a lot of knowledge about key events, both future and past, which can be gleaned in small fragments. Knowledge of future events relates to a possible version of the future, and in fact different prophets could see entirely different versions of the same version with the same accuracy. Knowledge of past events is static.

These events are associated with a Hero, a mortal who has the special quality of controlling their own destiny in defiance of prophecy (and other "look I'm the Player Character" qualities). As such, any prophecy could potentially be altered/averted by the Hero associated with its event. The whole setup of Morrowind is basically the Emperor saying "hey, this random person fits the description of the Hero of this prophecy; go get them in a position to swing things in a direction that doesn't suck".

[Keltest]

Without getting into all the "intentionally mysterious self-contradiction is mysterious" and deep setting aspects....The most well-known sources of prophecy in the Elder Scrolls setting are...the Elder Scrolls. Elder Scrolls are of unknown origin, possibly because being "fragments of creation from outside time itself" doesn't make any sense.

In the context of divinations, Elder Scroll archive a lot of knowledge about key events, both future and past, which can be gleaned in small fragments. Knowledge of future events relates to a possible version of the future, and in fact different prophets could see entirely different versions of the same version with the same accuracy. Knowledge of past events is static.

These events are associated with a Hero, a mortal who has the special quality of controlling their own destiny in defiance of prophecy (and other "look I'm the Player Character" qualities). As such, any prophecy could potentially be altered/averted by the Hero associated with its event. The whole setup of Morrowind is basically the Emperor saying "hey, this random person fits the description of the Hero of this prophecy; go get them in a position to swing things in a direction that doesn't suck".

Adding to this, reading the Elder Scrolls themselves is extremely confusing and hazardous. Its guaranteed to cause blindness of increasing length (up to being permanent), and theres no guarantee that any given reading will actually give any knowledge that can be acted upon. On the other hand, you can occasionally luck out, and get such helpful things as a literal map showing you where the Plot Device is, and other useful information.

[georgie_leech]

Adding to this, reading the Elder Scrolls themselves is extremely confusing and hazardous. Its guaranteed to cause blindness of increasing length (up to being permanent), and theres no guarantee that any given reading will actually give any knowledge that can be acted upon. On the other hand, you can occasionally luck out, and get such helpful things as a literal map showing you where the Plot Device is, and other useful information.

Unless you have no training before reading them, in which case you just see some funny lines and they may as well be random scribbles on parchment.

[Curupira]

Jasdoif, Keltest, and georgie_leech: thanks for taking the time to explain!

Now that I get the "minority-report" nature of Elder Scrolls prophecies, I agree with previous posters that it's not likely that Stickverse prophecies work like that. Going by how previous ones (by the Oracle) stood up, it seems that Odin's prophecy would be fulfilled, one way or the other.

(A side note: the Elder Scrolls method seems a very clever way to introduce prophecies in a game that allows you to do whatever you want).

[schmunzel]

Certainly. But he can also be a more complex and nuanced character without stopping being as evil as he always was. Since we don't have a nazimeter to measure him with, we can't really tell. But lacking some kind of indication of remorse, I'm not sure that the important thing about his growing introspection is how that has changed his amount of evil.

GW

Wouldnt you say that his character growth might be the foundation for being able to show remorse?

sch

[Peelee]

Wouldnt you say that his character growth might be the foundation for being able to show remorse?

sch

It might be. And I hope it is. But it ain't happening yet.

[georgie_leech]

It might be. And I hope it is. But it ain't happening yet.

Mm, while I love the direction Belkar is turning, I wouldn't expect him to actually start moving down that road until the last book. First he had to learn to change. Then he had to grow a sense of empathy for the things he cares about that don't involve violence. Now he seems to be learning to apply that empathy to things that aren't animals nor of immediate benefit to him.

Then he can start being introspective about things with this new-found conscience and maybe beimg sort of redeemed.

[8BitNinja]

Hey, if one's enough for Banjo...

Then we need to make a tall lawful good god of peace as a rival.

I think a lot of those already exist. So you're good.

[Goblin_Priest]

Mm, while I love the direction Belkar is turning, I wouldn't expect him to actually start moving down that road until the last book. First he had to learn to change. Then he had to grow a sense of empathy for the things he cares about that don't involve violence. Now he seems to be learning to apply that empathy to things that aren't animals nor of immediate benefit to him.

Then he can start being introspective about things with this new-found conscience and maybe beimg sort of redeemed.

Or, someone could just give him a headband of inspired wisdom. Since, you know, the effect Owl's Wisdom had on him that once. ;)

[Ironsmith]

Or, someone could just give him a headband of inspired wisdom. Since, you know, the effect Owl's Wisdom had on him that once. ;)

About that... Belkar seems to be getting more self-aware, too, and one of the mechanics of Dungeons & Dragons is the ability to up your ability scores a small fragment at certain levels. Given that the most evident portion of Belkar's development came at around a time when he had it rubbed in his face just how bad his Wisdom score was, and a growing need for a better Will save, is it at all possible that Belkar might bring himself up to the Owl's Wisdom point of his own volition?

And if that's the direction Rich is going with this... goddamn that is forethought.

[BriarHobbit]

I liked this a lot. It highlighted Durkon's importance to the group in a series of recollections. There even was some tree-related humor as well.

[Manty5]

I think that I shall never see;

A recurring gag as insidious as the trees.

[Nighthawk4]

The word "criteria" is plural.

The singular form is "criterion"

[Kardwill]

Belkar was evil specifically because he didn't care about anybody. Now that that isn't true anymore, he is evil mainly out of habit and self-image.

Even then, it's mostly appearances, lately. He talks a lot and plays the "tough guy" attitude, sure, and he's still a jerk, but I have trouble remembering real evil acts since the pyramid. At least not acts the others don't practice regularly, like being a smartass while monsterslaying.

Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe he didn't have many opportunities, and it can be argued that his desert shenigans were not very long ago, timeline-speaking. But there's been a lot less "Hey, Belkar just horribly murdered someone in a funny way" jokes lately.

Not saying he's non-evil, sure, but... The Evil-o-metter is certainly getting lower signals

[factotum]

Even then, it's mostly appearances, lately. He talks a lot and plays the "tough guy" attitude, sure, and he's still a jerk, but I have trouble remembering real evil acts since the pyramid.

The pyramid was, what, maybe a week ago in comic time? How much opportunity has Belkar had to perform evil acts over that time period?

I think the Buggy Lou encounter shows Belkar's true colours. He was also in the position of caring about his cat at that point, just as he is now, but he was perfectly happy to let Buggy Lou enslave a load of innocent people from the caravan he was riding along with. It wasn't until a direct threat was made to Mr. Scruffy that he killed Buggy. So, he's at least advanced to a position where he's capable of caring about some things, but that still leaves 99.9999% of the world's population he doesn't care about and will happily kill if asked.

[Corian]

I think the Buggy Lou encounter shows Belkar's true colours.

But (many people agree) the arena was a turning point, and the Buggy Lou encounter was prior to that.

That said, the arena encounter involved unleashing a dinosaur on not-innocent guards, not sure where that falls on the alignment meter. I think the usual D&D-specific "killing evil people and their minions is goodish" ethos can apply, though.

Oh, and great episode.

[Quebbster]

The pyramid was, what, maybe a week ago in comic time?

Probably a bit more than a week but not quite two. The Mechane was supposed to get to the north pole in ten days, and then there was the Godsmoot detour. It hasn't been a fortnight since Roy got impaled by Tarquin though.

[Peelee]

Even then, it's mostly appearances, lately. He talks a lot and plays the "tough guy" attitude, sure, and he's still a jerk, but I have trouble remembering real evil acts since the pyramid. At least not acts the others don't practice regularly, like being a smartass while monsterslaying.

Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe he didn't have many opportunities, and it can be argued that his desert shenigans were not very long ago, timeline-speaking. But there's been a lot less "Hey, Belkar just horribly murdered someone in a funny way" jokes lately.

And then I'll just stab him in the heart. The vampire, not Roy. Though, you know, options open.

Climbing the mountain to the godsmoot, all alone, nobody around to have false bravado for. Still contemplates stabbing Roy in the heart.

I'm gonna stuck with "less one-dimensional, no less evil."

[Keltest]

Climbing the mountain to the godsmoot, all alone, nobody around to have false bravado for. Still contemplates stabbing Roy in the heart.

I'm gonna stuck with "less one-dimensional, no less evil."

What, you think Belkar cant have false bravado for his own sake? He's talking to himself out loud while climbing a mountain, he's obviously at least partially talking for the sake of hearing his own voice.

[Peelee]

What, you think Belkar cant have false bravado for his own sake? He's talking to himself out loud while climbing a mountain, he's obviously at least partially talking for the sake of hearing his own voice.

I think if he does, then at the very least he is resistant to changing, which isn't a,point in his favor.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What, you think Belkar cant have false bravado for his own sake?

When your argument relies on marking something the character says against your hypothesis as false, you have a weak argument. In fact, it sounds worryingly circular "I have decided he is less evil, therefore that must have been false bravado, therefore he is less evil".

Belkar still enjoys mass murderer, and delights on the chance to kill people after the arena. "He felt a bit bad about cheating someone... whilst still taking advantage of her, just not getting a free lunch (and possibly some nookie) out of it" is not Neutral action.

I think what I dislike about this whole hypothesis is the underlying assumption that the only way his character can be developed is towards becoming less evil. That is simply not true. Rich may be planning to make him Neutral by the time of his death, but he could also be planning to show off his writing chops by pulling a reverse Miko: showing a heroic Evil character. The second seems far more plausible to me.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

I don't see where you guys disagree on the central point: Belkar can be less Evil while still being very Evil. Personally, I think it's obvious both that Belkar is changing and that he's struggling with how that affects his self-image (see his interactions with Ian and Mr. Scruffy).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't see where you guys disagree on the central point: Belkar can be less Evil while still being very Evil. Personally, I think it's obvious both that Belkar is changing and that he's struggling with how that affects his self-image (see his interactions with Ian and Mr. Scruffy).

AFAICT, we disagree on the "can be" vs "is" of "Belkar can be/is less Evil while still being very Evil"

GW

[Goblin_Priest]

About that... Belkar seems to be getting more self-aware, too, and one of the mechanics of Dungeons & Dragons is the ability to up your ability scores a small fragment at certain levels. Given that the most evident portion of Belkar's development came at around a time when he had it rubbed in his face just how bad his Wisdom score was, and a growing need for a better Will save, is it at all possible that Belkar might bring himself up to the Owl's Wisdom point of his own volition?

And if that's the direction Rich is going with this... goddamn that is forethought.

Belkar's character growth, 1 wisdom point per 4 levels at a time!

[D.One]

Belkar's character growth, 1 wisdom point per 4 levels at a time!

Definitive proof of that should be he being able to cast 1st level ranger spells...

"Belkar acting like a Ranger! We're doomed!"

[alwaysbebatman]

I think what I dislike about this whole hypothesis is the underlying assumption that the only way his character can be developed is towards becoming less evil. That is simply not true. Rich may be planning to make him Neutral by the time of his death, but he could also be planning to show off his writing chops by pulling a reverse Miko: showing a heroic Evil character. The second seems far more plausible to me.

Grey Wolf

So... are you saying that Miko's alignment didn't change either?