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Thread: My Little Pony LI: FE
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2012-08-15, 07:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
It often is interesting, that's why I can't stop it Although sometimes I think it can go on a little too long and become a little too heated, frustrating and tedious to deal with.
Oh, definitely can be a challenge to write these things well. That's why I like to write these stories, because they're a challenge. They are more satisfying when you pull it off. And sure, if they're written poorly then they can be wildly OOC, but that doesn't mean you can't write them well and IC. That's all I'm saying
If they're well written then I think they are great stories. A well written sad/dark fic can evoke some very powerful emotions that are hard to compete with. A fun, heart warming tale might be read, enjoyed and then quickly forgotten, while one that made you cry or sit on the edge of the chair biting your nails will stay with you. At least that's my personal experience.
The most powerful scenes in fiction are frequently tragic or dark.
Discord is very scary and depressing if you think a little about him. That's why I never quite liked him, he's way too powerful and difficult to deal with.
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2012-08-15, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
- Cracking the statue lets Discord out
- Sending him into space when Nightmare Moon is a thing seems like a super bad idea
- Aliens
- Asteroids
- Having the statue of a chaos god on hand makes a really good deterrent for people planning on hitting your capital with an orbital strike.
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2012-08-15, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
A mask of uncertain powers, qualities and abilities, and you think we left it in an unsupervised Isolation Unit?
Hahahahahahahaha!
Haha, ha. No. There are three Guardponies on duty at any time, two to watch the Item and one to watch the two, all from within a magically grounded booth.
...Sundancer?
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2012-08-15, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
Thank you!
"I hate to break it to you, but your guards are already dead.
"I mean bypassed. The Mask is the symbol of the thing and not the thing. If you brick up the window it looks out through a different one. Might be able to get twelve bits for the metal.
"And yeah. Sundancer. And -" she checks her now quite blank flank, "Aw man, I don't even have my for-reals cutie mark? This sucks!"Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-08-15 at 08:16 AM.
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2012-08-15, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
There is no evidence of that.
The statue cracks when he is released, but I think that's a casual reaction of the latter, not the former causing the latter.
It's a possibilty, yes, but not a certainty.
Originally Posted by Thanqol
No.
Just... no.
Space is really, really REALLY big. I'm not even going to bring up the Hitchiker's quote this time. It's also really, really, REALLY empty.
If you chucked Discord on a trajectory out of the system, the statistical likelihood is he would not encounter ANYTHING. At ALL. EVER. And be floating slowly out of the solar system into empty space until the universe ends.
There are no analogies big enough to describe the relationship in size between a, what, six-foot lump of rock and the size of entire universe.
You would be unlikely to find him even if you were looking for him, and even if you knew exactly what exit vector he went off on. Do you not recall how many sci-fi stories and stuff point out that you can't find a floating man, lost in space? That's entirely correct. This is exactly the same.
Originally Posted by Thanqol
Especially considering he's antagonistic to your own state primarily, as is, if anything more likely than not to help the guys nuking you in the face.
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2012-08-15, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
It's not the sort of thing I'd want to test.
*sigh*
No.
Just... no.
Space is really, really REALLY big. I'm not even going to bring up the Hitchiker's quote this time. It's also really, really, REALLY empty.
If you chucked Discord on a trajectory out of the system, the statistical likelihood is he would not encounter ANYTHING. At ALL. EVER. And be floating slowly out of the solar system into empty space until the universe ends.
There are no analogies big enough to describe the relationship in size between a, what, six-foot lump of rock and the size of entire universe.
You would be unlikely to find him even if you were looking for him, and even if you knew exactly what exit vector he went off on. Do you not recall how many sci-fi stories and stuff point out that you can't find a floating man, lost in space? That's entirely correct. This is exactly the same.
Also scrying and teleports.
No, it really doesn't.
Especially considering he's antagonistic to your own state primarily, as is, if anything more likely than not to help the guys nuking you in the face.
It's MAD at it's most basic. You nuke me from orbit, I unleash an undying chaos monster that makes the planet permanently uninhabitable.Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-08-15 at 08:22 AM.
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2012-08-15, 08:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
Have you considered that the ponies are all just really nice? Assuming that we're not 100% sure what cracking the statue would do, and sending it into space somewhere means that eventually it will be somepony else's problem, the ponies wouldn't do that because that would be unleashing Discord on somepony else.
Instead they're well aware that they have tons of superpowers and a friendship nuke that is proven to work against Discord. They probably figure it's the nice, neighborly thing of them to hang onto the statue since they know they can stop him if he gets free.
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2012-08-15, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
Well, technically yes. That's kind of the idea?
*blank stare*
No, I'm not entirely sure I understood any of that.
Well, that's new.
*Stares in sick-facination at the unfolding drama*
I'm uh...very sorry for your loss?
Discord: Sure, breaking the statue might not release him. I wouldn't risk it, personally.
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2012-08-15, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
That's what I'd call tone, not flavour. Tone belongs to the story, flavour is about the setting. Could you write a comedy in Lovecraft's universe? Yes. (and at this point I think we're agreeing, albeit with different words) A skilled writer could (and would have to) maintain the feeling that untold horrors lurk in the shadows, that a man's sanity is a fragile thing when exposed to the larger truths of an uncaring universe. The flavour can be delivered via non-euclidean éclairs and ineffable soufflés instead of tentacled monsters, provided the delivery is good enough. But the moment you remove the horrors, render them describable, present a man who's mind can resist the true face of reality... then you've completely lost the flavour. It is no longer the Lovecraft universe, just something that looks like it at first glance.
Another example. I mentioned Philip Marlowe earlier. A Marlowe story, no matter what events occur, how the tone may shift from typical noir trappings, must still be hardboiled, it must still have, uh, I'll steal Chandler's own words for this:
Originally Posted by Raymond ChandlerZe magicsThe flavour.
Not what I meant to say (although reading back, I may have implied as much). I said before that what I call flavour is independent of the story told. tLotR and The Hobbit have different tones. Yet they both have that fantastic Middle Earth flavour, where living legends walk the land, that myths are still in the making, and that they nevertheless pale in comparison to the great deeds of the past. Those drinking and digging dwarves could be in Middle Earth, provided their drinking and digging possesses that mythical quality and sense of diminishment, even if it is in jest.
Again, not what I'm getting at. Of course there's death. And disease and kidnappings and dangerous monsters and evil, reality-warping embodiments of fundamental forces. None of these things make the setting dark. The setting is bright and cheery because of how these things actually go down.
We've seen that funeral. And it got interrupted by fillies doing a musical number. Flavour is less about what happens (although it matters!) and more how those things are presented.
This's what I'm getting at. Death happens in Equestria. And, yes, ponies do sometimes get eaten by monsters. It's a dangerous place. But just because it's dangerous, because death and disease are things that exist, that doesn't mean it's dark. All those things happen with FiM flavour.
EDIT: Bluh. The discussion moved on a fair bit while I typed this up. I'll catch up ASAP.
Just skimming quickly:
Totally this. I'm greatly enjoying what I see as an open, frank and friendly discussion. I do hope I haven't come off as otherwise.Last edited by SlyGuyMcFly; 2012-08-15 at 09:41 AM.
Truth resists simplicity.
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2012-08-15, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
"Shut up, the last vampires used ghouls for guard duty."
No, I'm not entirely sure I understood any of that.
Well, that's new.
*Stares in sick-facination at the unfolding drama*
I'm uh...very sorry for your loss?
The pony formerly known as Metal Mask rolled her eyes. "I suppose it was inevitable."Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-08-15 at 08:36 AM.
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2012-08-15, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
That's why they don't do it.
(I think Princess C is being far too ncie for her own good, but then again Batman and Superman would likely be just the same, so there you go.)
I did say "if I was..."
Originally Posted by Anarion
Scale, people, scale. Space is unfathomably huge. It is finite, but the numbers are so high that they are nearly meaningless in any concrete sense.
Look. Practical experiement. When you next go outside for a walk or something, take a straw and a piece of cardboard and paper with a hole in it to put the straw through. Get a pebble or something, find a field (or perhaps, if you want to be clever, some bio-degradable thing that floats and a duck-free pond). Lob said object to the best of your abilities, and then try to find it again - but you're only allowed to use what you can see through the straw.
That's several orders of magnintude easier than trying to find something in space, and remember you're both actively looking for it AND you have a rough idea of where you chucked it.
That might give you some idea of how hard it is to find anything in space.
Hell, look as astronomers - they're still finding asteroids in Earth's solar system which are so much bigger than roughly-human sized it ain't funny - and how much effort it is to find whole extra-solar planets, when they even know where to start looking (e.g. suns).
It is just not statistically plausible that anything that small lost in that big a space is ever going to encounter anything at all.
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2012-08-15, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-15, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
To be fair, the sun is still more powerful in Japanese mythology, as evidenced by the time the moon got kicked out of the house for murdering the goddess of food.
And to be even fairer, the moon wasn't that angry all the time, he was just offended that his hostess would serve him divine vomit. Total breach of protocol, y'know.
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2012-08-15, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
All Vampire, All The Time.
The whole dead or not thing is a bit complex though.
No. Nothing is inevitable, save perhaps entropy. If you feel that mask was your one special thing, your purpose, the reason you exist, then you do no such thing. If the Mask is what you want, then you go out there and you get the Mask back.
Your Cutie Mark doesn't choose you, Sundancer. You choose it, through your actions and desires. Buck Apples? Please.
...Um. Yeeeah. That's pretty hilarious and/or weird even by mythological standards.
Yeah, standard CAT protocol, never summon a being you couldn't beat blindfolded and with one hoof tied behind your back.
And never, ever attempt to enslave anything that claims godhood. It never ends well.Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2012-08-15 at 09:25 AM.
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2012-08-15, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
I'm sorry, I am not buying spells capable of detection and instant1 summoning across the size of the universe. Especially not on Equestria, given the nature of magic and demonstrated power levels in question, EVEN IF you count Celestia as an actual goddess who moves a stellar body on a daily basis (which I do).
Just no.
Hell, even D&D, with it's "infinite" spell ranges treats worlds as seperate planes (and D&D has a ridiculously poor idea of actual scale and what "infinite" means at the very best of times.)
If anyone had that kind of power, to summon inactive divine beings (not extraplanar beings who are actively trying to get (back) into the world, but inactive ones with no current powers available to them personally), paltry wards (which I don't see in evidence in a statue in the freaking palace garden open to the public) would not stop them. Frankly, if they could do that, they wouldn't need to, because they'd already be more powerful than Discord to start with.
Magic is not omnipotent, nor is it omnicient, unless wielded by beings who are already same.
You might, repeat might, manage something in the first few years after the event, while it's still within relativistically close ranges - but after that? No. Another thousand year-plus period of containment like the one Discord just had? Not a chance.
And again, if you can summon from space, you can certainly summon from the palace gardens. And if you can ward the gardens, you can ward a Thing to put the statue in. (I remind you about the previously mentioned total ineffectiveness of the Royal Guard - and the fact Discord's statue wasn't guarded anyway - so not putting guards on it would not matter anyway.)
No, I think the reason Celestia doesn't do it is likely exactly the same reason Batman doesn't shoot the Joker dead (or at least let him get shot by the police, or something). I.e morals, not practicality - and I suspect it will have pretty much the same results in time.
I'm sorry, Thanq, but magic-all-of-space-wide-instant-detection-and-summoning is on the level of universe-sized robots; it's so utterly lacking in conception of real scale that I can only roll my eyeglows at the idea and snort.
1If it ain't instant, or close to, then it wouldn't matter, since likely the spell will have worn off and/or the planet moved before it mattered.Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2012-08-15 at 09:32 AM.
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2012-08-15, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
"Uh, if you've only got vampires aboard what do you eat?
"Don't answer that if it's 'me'."
No. Nothing is inevitable, save perhaps entropy. If you feel that mask was your one special thing, your purpose, the reason you exist, then you do no such thing. If the Mask is what you want, then you go out there and you get the Mask back.
Your Cutie Mark doesn't choose you, Sundancer. You choose it, through your actions and desires. Buck Apples? Please.
Yeah, standard CAT protocol, never summon a being you couldn't beat blindfolded and with one hoof tied behind your back.
And never, ever attempt to enslave anything that claims godhood. It never ends well.
You've got a really, really limited view of alternate magic systems.
One such makes the assertion that distance is an illusion and what truly matters is the sympathetic connections between things. You are more connected to your mother in America than you are to the stranger next to you on the bus.
And that's not even getting into Fate magic and narrative based magic systems.
Hell, even D&D, with it's "infinite" spell ranges treats worlds as seperate planes (and D&D has a ridiculously poor idea of actual scale and what "infinite" means at the very best of times.)Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-08-15 at 09:42 AM.
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2012-08-15, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
Eh, it's less of a major magical effect if D&D isn't your go-to magical system. I'm still getting to grips with MAGE the Awakening, but sympathetic connections are a lot easier to work with than any kind of tape-measure-limit. Simply knowing Discord's true name would be enough to put him in easy range of magic, as far as I understand.
And certain editions and settings of D&D do count seperate worlds as seperate planes, but post spelljammer and the whole Crystal Spheres thing, that's a lot less the default assumption and more supposition.
Oooh, that's a good question, actually.
Vampirism. You know what it isn't? Porphyric Hemophilia. It's not some passive state as much as it is something that you can get better at.
The long answer is that we feed upon our enemies, upon captives taken in war, and upon willing donors(It's not like it's a lethal process) whose location you'll forgive me if I do not share and only in the minority of cases do we need to feast upon blood itself. Psychic Residue, Emotions, Energy Sources, Blood, the list is exhaustive if you are of the correct lineage.
Personally, after being shot by the Friendship Array, I couldn't eat another drop.
Actually, we tried harvesting blood from Space Whales for a while, but it got messy. Those things hold a grudge like you wouldn't believe.
Oh. Well, if all you want is magical facewear, that's easy. Aquiring magical artifacts is something of a family tradition, there's a whole store-room of enchanted masks a few levels up from here.
I'm sure we could come to some kind of...deal?
Admittedly, the large majority of them are a tiny bit unwholesome, but there are some real nice finds in there if you look hard enough.Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2012-08-15 at 10:01 AM.
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2012-08-15, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
"Do you eat music, by any chance? What does it taste like?"
Oh. Well, if all you want is magical facewear, that's easy. Aquiring magical artifacts is something of a family tradition, there's a whole store-room of enchanted masks a few levels up from here.
I'm sure we could come to some kind of...deal?
Admittedly, the large majority of them are a tiny bit unwholesome, but there are some real nice finds in there if you look hard enough.
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2012-08-15, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
Conceptual Vampirism? Hmm. Not as such. I've dined on the emotions of a master musician during a virtuoso performance before. Turns out there can be side effects though, the song was secretly dedicated to his dead mother and I cried for a week.
A Favour then, to be cashed in at a time of my choosing, provided it does not endanger or inconvenience you beyond what is reasonable?
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2012-08-15, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
"Huh. So just mind stuff, then? All right. That's cool, I guess."
A Favour then, to be cashed in at a time of my choosing, provided it does not endanger or inconvenience you beyond what is reasonable?
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2012-08-15, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
*looks back at the smoldering ruins of Canterlot*
Yeah, that part of the plan could have used some work.
The problem with sending Discord into space is that it doing so fails to address the problem of him breaking out when the element bearers pass on, and could even speed up the process if the magic sealing him requires that he remain within a certain proximity to the elements.
And the moment he does escape, you're right back to square one, given that distance has no real meaning to the spirit of chaos. So all you've accomplished is likely spent a great deal of time and resources storing the statue in a manner that's ultimately no more secure than leaving it in the garden anyway.
Also: On Dark Stories and Ponies
I think it's perfectly possible for a MLP story to contain all sorts of "Dark" elements, such as death, despair, insanity, and so forth, and still be true to the setting. However, this is contingent on holding to the central premise of the show, which is that, no matter how bad things get, love and friendship will always ultimately triumph in the end.If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it.
When in doubt, set something on fire. If not in doubt, set something on fire anyway.
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2012-08-15, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
your argument applies equally well to them being unable to catapult it into space.
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2012-08-15, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-15, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
...it's a shark.
With a FRICKIN LASER BEAM attached to its head.
You are forgetting one vital fact, lichie.
I attribute it to a lack of bardic training.
Narrative causality. If the story would be improved by discord being found, the practically impossibly chance will happen.
(Also, Infinite Improbability Drive.)
...
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2012-08-15, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
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2012-08-15, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
Nope, don't buy that, sorry. The universe is just too big.
I don't recall many if any magic-based-systems that utilise actual stellar distances, i.e. interplanetary travel (even the Force, which is affected by proximity of relationships, is ALSO limited - or at least migitated - by distance).
There is a galaxy of difference between "quantity that is bigger than operational area so appears effectively infinite" and "actually infinite."
Let me put it this way. To paraphrase something I once read (because I cannot for the unlife of me find the quotation, but it was some fairly big sci-fi writer, talking about his story), "how does having an invincible hull not solve all the problems?"
Meaning that, if such infinite power is available, why is it only limited to this one instance of "nuh-uh?" Why cannot aliens from the other end of the galaxy not just pop over whenever they feel like and vice-versa? Why is there ever any sort of challenge is there are no limitations - and most importantly, from a real-world perspective - why is evidence of this not ingrained the very base of society and function wherever magic shows up? Because if it really that easy, why doesn't everyone do it? All the time?
To drag D&D back into it, why isn't everywhere the equivilent of the Tippyverse, if that's true?
Either magic is unlimited in power and scope, in which case it should be everywhere and abused like it's going out of fashion for everything possibly imaginable, up to and including the creation/destruction of solar systems, new dimensions, the complete negation of death/time/whatever, or it isn't. The lack of the former being widespread across the entire of the everything would empirically suggest the latter.
Don't believe that, either. Discord is not completely omnipotent because HE HAS BEEN BEATEN. TWICE.
If he was capable of infinite power, he couldn't have been.
And my (limited) understanding of Mage is that it has no point of contact with any form of space travel or intersystem functionality, does it, being confined to one planet (Earth) and possibly coterminuous dimensions? If so, you can't then say it's magic works over interstellar distances "infinite on the same plane of in this case, planet, maybe solar system" (sic) is not the same as actually "really, infinite, honest".
Unless there are actual aliens in Mage...?
Relative scale (even relative infinite) is not even remotely the same as actual absolute scale.
I think I had better stop this line of thinking, though, because I'm starting to get snippy, and that isn't condusive to any of us.
Originally Posted by Thanqol
I find that setting to be the most ludicrous pile of nonsensical crap I have ever encountered in any anything, with the possible exception of FATAL.Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2012-08-15 at 10:36 AM.
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2012-08-15, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
Size matters not.
Either magic is unlimited in power and scope, in which case it should be everywhere and abused like it's going out of fashion for everything possibly imaginable, up to and including the creation/destruction of solar systems, new dimensions, the complete negation of death/time/whatever, or it isn't. The lack of the former being widespread across the entire of the everything would empirically suggest the latter.
And my (limited) understanding of Mage is that it has no point of contact with any form of space travel or intersystem functionality, does it, being confined to one planet (Earth) and possibly coterminuous dimensions? If so, you can't then say it's magic works over interstellar distances "infinite on the same plane of in this case, planet, maybe solar system" (sic) is not the same as actually "really, infinite, honest".
New Mage, if you can get a hunk of rock from a planet on the other side of the galaxy you can use it to open a Sympathetic portal just as easily as you could open one to an office building you had a similar rock from. Also in New Mage, building personal Solar Systems is one of the mid-range things an Archmaster can do.
Unless there are actual aliens in Mage...?
You realise that using spelljammer as justifaction for anything but ridicule to me is only the tiniest bit less daft than using vampires, right?
I find that setting to be the most ludicrous pile of nonsensical crap I have ever encountered in any anything, with the possible exception of FATAL.
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2012-08-15, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
Your argument for the limits of Discord's power is based on the fact that he has been beaten by the concentrated power of the conduits to the most powerful underlying force in the MLP universe.
That's a bit like arguing that an object is flammable because it would ignite if tossed into the sun. The example is simply too extreme to build a useful argument around. Discord might not be completely omnipotent, but he's close enough that the distinction is irrelevant.If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it.
When in doubt, set something on fire. If not in doubt, set something on fire anyway.
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2012-08-15, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
This is the Ancient Gallery, our little Hall of Faces. There are a couple of hundred magical masks in here, as well as a handful of helmets and at least five sets of enchanted spectacles. Most of the objects here were either crafted by, or at least in the possession of an evil cult, intergalactic crime syndicate, insane wizard or demonic entity of some sort, (and there's a lot of cross-over between all that, let me tell you!), before falling into our possession. They should mostly be safe for you to use, and the Commander has said you may freely take your choice, though I'd avoid anything with a floaty-aura and all of the ones with a persistant smell of bacon, if I were you. Their properties are diverse, their abilities vary immensely, and some of them look really silly.
*Does her best to ignore Lix tackle-hugging Sundancer from no-where*
Take your pick, it's all up to you now.
(Then draw it for us).
As for Mage and Space, there is little Interstellar action in mage, because of how sympathetic magic works. There's a good chance that Neil Armstrong, if he awakened (And if he actually went to the moon rather than it being an elaborate Seer Plot), could with the correct arcana open a portal there easily enough. But no-one else has the right kind of connection to pull that off with anything less than herculean effort (and it's probably some kind of Seer plot regardless of whether he went or not).
A Fragment of the statue, the creatures true name, a vial of chaotic energy, all things that would make it easy to fetch Discord-Statue, and there are plenty of ways that a Mage could find such items in the first place. Distance barely comes into it.Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2012-08-15 at 10:46 AM.
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2012-08-15, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
Backstory for Esteban Magnet, if you've never heard of him.
Youtube captions put the words "Steven Magnet" underneath him in the episode, and it just stuck because it looked like a name.
As for SiuiS, Pinkie isn't an eldritch abomination, she just channels the energy of The Pink One as one whose mind can comprehend and manipulate the powers without going mad. Or as the Lich would post, Superpowers, superpowers everywhere.Ask me about our low price vacation plans in the Elemental Plane of Puppies and PieSpoiler
Evoker avatar by kpenguin. Evoker Pony by Dirtytabs. Grey Mouser, disciple of cupcakes by me. Any and all commiepuppies by BRC