Blackwing's exposure to the rift

[The Linker]

While no webcomic's story has enraptured me to the point where I've purchased all the books, a calendar, and a friggin' fridge magnet like Order of the Stick -- I think this one instance where people are just thinking too highly of him. Or simply misrepresenting his chain of importance in regards to rule of funny vs. plot coherence.

The simplest and most plausible explanation, to me, is:

#674: "Hey, it'd be pretty funny to have everyone forget Blackwing just like V spent the rest of the comic's run forgetting about Blackwing."

#943: "I want to integrate Blackwing into the party more. Hmm... for Haley, I'll include a throwaway line where she says she was just kidding before. Elan... hah, I could just say he actually forgot. I'll throw something together for Roy and Belkar later, maybe."

No matter what reason you think the party ignored Blackwing before, Haley saying something about why she was acknowledging Blackwing now needed to be done. He can't just give no explanation, or that'd be even weirder. This was a quick and easy explanation that -- to most -- didn't raise any questions. It's just a couple panels that serve like a switch between 'Blackwing is ignored by everyone' to 'Blackwing is treated like an actual character now.'

The joke that they were all denying Blackwing's existence also makes it easier to justify why Blackwing wouldn't, say, just tell Roy what he saw in the rift. It allows Blackwing to serve as someone for Vaarsuvius to talk to who won't tell the rest of the party anything -- even the really important, relevant-to-their-quest stuff.

I'm not. But theories have consequences that conflict with other theories. For example, if the party was joking with V, they remembered Blackwing, and so a claim they just naturally forgot is at odds with the theory they are joking.

I believe that he was referring to the fact that you present 'the characters did forget' and the 'the characters are playing a joke' as if the answer could not be 'some of them forgot and some of them are playing a joke.' Which is exactly what happened (when you take the latest strip at face value) with Haley and Elan.

[orrion]

I'm not. But theories have consequences that conflict with other theories. For example, if the party was joking with V, they remembered Blackwing, and so a claim they just naturally forgot is at odds with the theory they are joking.

Again, why does everyone have to be joking or everyone have to forget or what have you?

(Note: Not necessarily definitive, except for Haley)

Haley - Joking.

Roy - Dead serious.

Belkar - Forgot.

Elan - Stupid.

Durkon - Forgot.


Seriously, how many games have you been in where everyone always remembers every detail of characters they've met once or twice or abilities of other players in the party they've only seen once or twice or hell even abilities of their own classes?

Now I have already said the idea is insane and should not be used. But, as I pointed out, it has been used by professional writers, and approved by professional editors, who gave the writers checks instead of demands for rewriting, and does not seem to have caused howls of anger among the readers. I am perfectly willing to say they are all wrong, but I can't say in the teeth of this evidence that our writer might not do the same thing.

Professional writers have written stories about ships in space that can travel through dimensions. That doesn't mean there's a high probability of the Giant bringing ships in space that can travel through dimensions into this story.

Why not? There is a major chance it won't happen because the plot might go in a completely different direction, but why can't it happen?

It could, in the same way that the party could go to Xykon's fortress eventually or that Serini could still be alive. There's no proof for any of it, though.

Little Johnny comes down with some disease. The doc says he got it from playing with a sick kid. If you object that Sue, Billy, Sam, & Jo didn't get sick, he will just shrug and maybe say something about luck. He does not change the diagnosis.

At least there's actual evidence of the disease in that case.

Actually, we already have the plot holes, and the theory is trying to plug them. People had known Blackwing perfectly well now don't. Plot hole. Something made them forget is an attempt to plug that, just as in they were joking, or it wasn't that hard to forget.

A theory that's trying to fix an (alleged) inconsistency shouldn't introduce more inconsistency. That kind of defeats the purpose.

But it is also weird that nobody remembered him.

Haley did.

Haley's reveal that she was joking in #674 is an example of a Brick Joke.

If so, it was a very badly done one. A brick joke is... buildup....long pause...punchline. There is the long pause here, but while some question the quality of 674, it is way funnier than 943, meaning we have punchline ... pause ... explanation [which is routinely bad for humor as well.] Indeed, 943 can be read as entirely serious with no joke intended.

All relative. 8-Bit Theater had a couple 10+ year brick jokes. I didn't find the punchline of one of them funny, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a brick joke. You have to stop basing this stuff solely on your interpretation.

[Sir_Leorik]

Again, why does everyone have to be joking or everyone have to forget or what have you?

(Note: Not necessarily definitive, except for Haley)

Haley - Joking.

Roy - Dead serious.

Belkar - Forgot.

Elan - Stupid.

Durkon - Forgot.


Seriously, how many games have you been in where everyone always remembers every detail of characters they've met once or twice or abilities of other players in the party they've only seen once or twice or hell even abilities of their own classes?

While The Giant has said on multiple occasions that the Order is not representing a group of roleplayers sitting in someone's basement or dorm room playing D&D (and for the record, I have no reason to challenge that), the reactions of the members of the Order in comic #674 actually do line up with the way certain people play the game. So the following is all a hypothetical discussion; there are no players, only characters.

Roy's player is a serious roleplayer. His PC, Roy, has never seen Blackwing except at the trial scene, and there were a lot of witnesses there, so he would have his PC question why V is wearing a crow on his shoulder, despite the fact that Roy's player knows full well that V has a Familiar.

Haley's player is a more lighthearted roleplayer. She has Haley latch on to Roy's confusion and uses it as the opportunity of a lifetime to prank V's player. After all, her PC named Blackwing, so how could she disavow any knowledge of him? Easy, she's Bluffing and passing notes to the DM.

Elan's player is something of a Loonie; he's the sort of player that Mr. Welch has been told by the DM to stop emulating. The player may have honestly forgotten about Blackwing, he may be colluding with Haley's player, he may have decided to pull the same prank independently or he may have concluded that Blackwing's exposure to the Rift erased the knowledge of Blackwing from his PC's mind, despite the DM insisting otherwise.

Belkar's player is a Real Man. He honestly only cares about combat. He has a boring job, and on the weekends he unwinds by playing a homicidal Halfling in his best friend's campaign. He doesn't care about courtly intrigue in Azure City, Roy's quest to fulfill his father's blood oath (except the part where he gets to kill something), Haley's drama with her dad, or the deal with the Gates. While the Order was on trial for their lives, Belkar's player went AWOL to fight Miko. Early on Belkar's player tried to remind other players like Durkon and V what their class features were, but he gave that up in favor of hassling them. Belkar's player has forgotten more details about the campaign setting than the DM has actually invested in it, so it's not surprising he wouldn't remember Blackwing.

Durkon's player is new to D&D, and is something of an introvert. He forgets his class and racial features, he's bad at math and until his PC became a Vampire he wasn't that invested in the campaign. So he forgot about Blackwing.

Once again, there are no players, only characters. But the reactions of Roy, Haley, Elan, Belkar and Durkon to V suddenly carrying Blackwing on her shoulder do match up to the way some people play the game. Which is one of the reasons I not only get the joke, I find it hilarious. I've played with people who would react that way (or have their characters react that way).

All relative. 8-Bit Theater had a couple 10+ year brick jokes. I didn't find the punchline of one of them funny, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a brick joke. You have to stop basing this stuff solely on your interpretation.

Humor is subjective after all. The thing is that there is a difference between getting a joke and not finding it funny, and missing the punchline entirely. And this thread is a battle between those who got the joke (whether they found it funny or not) and those who missed the punchline and went sailing into the epileptic trees in the process.

[blunk]

It does feel forced and out of place, but then again, I'd say this is what you get when the readers have a tendancy to overanalyze every little thing that is in comic, even when it's supposed to be just a little joke.

I would've loved it if Mr. Burlew had doubled down instead, and had Haley say something like, "Huh? I never forgot!" and then just left it unexplained for the rest of the series.

[David Argall]

Again, why does everyone have to be joking or everyone have to forget or what have you?

Strictly they don't, but for practical cases...
Picking and choosing different explanations looks, and usually is, contrived, that one is deriving facts from the conclusion. From a story basis too, a single cause is much superior.

Haley - Joking.

Roy - Dead serious.

Note that Roy also had to forget. He is told flat out that V has a familiar. One can argue that he had less chance to observe that familiar, but unless he forgets, he can't be serious and deny Blackwing. So we are back to needing a lot of people forgetting.

Belkar - Forgot.

Elan - Stupid.

Stupid does not preclude the need to forget, and at both the hotel and the trial, Elan seems to have actively remembered Blackwing. And while we have major questions about Elan's mental abilities, he really doesn't forget much.

Durkon - Forgot.


Seriously, how many games have you been in where everyone always remembers every detail of characters they've met once or twice or abilities of other players in the party they've only seen once or twice or hell even abilities of their own classes?

I have been to none in which the the players have incorrectly and unanimously said a player did not have something he had been using in previous sessions, which is what happens here.

Professional writers have written stories about ships in space that can travel through dimensions. That doesn't mean there's a high probability of the Giant bringing ships in space that can travel through dimensions into this story.

See the Gygax era. Several adventures featuring space travel and/or science fiction themes have happened in D&D official products. It could happen here too.
And a claim of low probability won't do here. Just about the entire story has been low probability and one can have a very high success rate by just mindlessly saying "not going to happen". Even the highly reasonable ideas are wrong the great majority of the time.

It could, in the same way that the party could go to Xykon's fortress eventually or that Serini could still be alive. There's no proof for any of it, though.

"It's unlikely", even "very unlikely" is severely different from "impossible".

At least there's actual evidence of the disease in that case.

We have clear evidence of "disease" here too. The entire party is denying what they should know to be true.

A theory that's trying to fix an (alleged) inconsistency shouldn't introduce more inconsistency. That kind of defeats the purpose.

The alleged inconsistencies are only there if you hunt for them. whether they exist at all can be debated, but 674 is based on a very obvious inconsistency. So even if the claimed "inconsistencies" are considered valid, the plot becomes less inconsistent by assuming something caused the party to forget.

Haley did.

Did she? Oh, she says she did, but Haley is a well-established liar and trickster. She also has trust issues. Confronted with her memories of Blackwing and of her denying those memories, she has good reason from her view to deny she forgot anything and to claim it was just a joke.

that doesn't mean it wasn't a brick joke. You have to stop basing this stuff solely on your interpretation.

I am taking the definition used by the links given in this thread. If you think a brick joke is something other than where the punchline is seriously separated from the build-up, it is your duty to supply it, or an explanation of why this qualifies. A mere statement does not suffice.

While The Giant has said on multiple occasions that the Order is not representing a group of roleplayers sitting in someone's basement or dorm room playing D&D (and for the record, I have no reason to challenge that), the reactions of the members of the Order in comic #674 actually do line up with the way certain people play the game.

Having played/directed thousands of D&D sessions, I can testify that nothing like 674 has ever happened in any of my games. And that is with a very wide set of players.

Humor is subjective after all. The thing is that there is a difference between getting a joke and not finding it funny, and missing the punchline entirely. And this thread is a battle between those who got the joke (whether they found it funny or not) and those who missed the punchline and went sailing into the epileptic trees in the process.

So feel feel to tell us why there is a joke in 943 that relates to 674. A mere claim is just a mere claim.

[The Linker]

Strictly they don't, but for practical cases...
Picking and choosing different explanations looks, and usually is, contrived, that one is deriving facts from the conclusion. From a story basis too, a single cause is much superior.

There's different explanations behind why the party does anything. Belkar helped Roy get the starmetal because he thought there'd be ogres. Haley did it because she thought there'd be riches. Vaarsuvius did it because she thought she could use Starmetal for something herself. Durkon did it because he had nothing better to do than help a friend. Elan just wanted to help.

Because characters are multi-faceted and have different motivations, character themes, and levels of reasoning -- from a story basis, a singular motivation for why these six people do anything is terrible, because it is incredibly uninteresting.

So yes, the idea that Haley saw her party members forgetting about Blackwing and decided to confuse Vaarsuvius further -- in itself, that shouldn't be unfathomable. I don't know why you would think it is. The idea that they might do things for different reasons is the entire reason we have six unique characters in this party and not Fighter-Roy and Wizard-Roy and Bard-Roy and Rogue-Roy and Cleric-Roy and Ranger-Roy.

[Sir_Leorik]

There's different explanations behind why the party does anything. Belkar helped Roy get the starmetal because he thought there'd be ogres. Haley did it because she thought there'd be riches. Vaarsuvius did it because she thought she could use Starmetal for something herself. Durkon did it because he had nothing better to do than help a friend. Elan just wanted to help.

Just a quick nitpick: Roy's Bluff was to convince Belkar that there were Giants, not Ogres. And he Bluffed Haley that the Giants were Kings.

Speaking of that Bluff, when the party arrives at the cave, Roy goes to apologize to Belkar about the Bluff. But Belkar's forgotten that Roy told them there would be Giants guarding the Starmetal, so he accuses Roy of lying to him about lying about Giants. (This actually plays a part in the climax to NCftPB.) So we now have evidence that Belkar forgets things all the time. In NCftPB he forgot why he agreed to come with Roy to the cave with the Starmetal. In Book Five he forgot (multiple times) about Blackwing. And that's not even going into all the things Elan forgets. Elan forgets seven important things before most people have eaten breakfast. So it is completely consistent that Belkar wouldn't notice Blackwing unless he was speaking (and sometimes not even then).

How about we just put this discussion to bed. It was a joke, and not everyone got it, and not everyone who got it found it funny. Humor is subjective.

[orrion]

Strictly they don't, but for practical cases...
Picking and choosing different explanations looks, and usually is, contrived, that one is deriving facts from the conclusion. From a story basis too, a single cause is much superior.

The idea that this party of 6 acts the same in all situations and always has the same motivations isn't practical. It's absurd.

Note that Roy also had to forget. He is told flat out that V has a familiar. One can argue that he had less chance to observe that familiar, but unless he forgets, he can't be serious and deny Blackwing. So we are back to needing a lot of people forgetting.

He's told about a familiar he's never seen except once (the trial), and Roy's points in 674 are that the bird hasn't been hanging around and he's never seen it involved in the party's adventures. Both are true.

Stupid does not preclude the need to forget, and at both the hotel

He never saw Blackwing at the hotel, so there goes that.

See the Gygax era. Several adventures featuring space travel and/or science fiction themes have happened in D&D official products. It could happen here too.

The point is that whether something exists elsewhere in one story is not evidence or support of it existing in another story.

The alleged inconsistencies are only there if you hunt for them. whether they exist at all can be debated, but 674 is based on a very obvious inconsistency. So even if the claimed "inconsistencies" are considered valid, the plot becomes less inconsistent by assuming something caused the party to forget.

Kind of ironic that you mentioning hunting for inconsistencies, since the basis of this theory is you hunting back through the comic to reinterpret everything that could possibly have anything to do with your theory.

Did she? Oh, she says she did, but Haley is a well-established liar and trickster. She also has trust issues. Confronted with her memories of Blackwing and of her denying those memories, she has good reason from her view to deny she forgot anything and to claim it was just a joke.

Lying and tricking was exactly what she was doing in 674 by her explanation in 943, so that fits just fine. End of book scenes are for clarifications, explanations and finishing touches, anyway, so it really doesn't make sense for Haley to be lying here.

[Carlo]

The simplest and most plausible explanation, to me, is:

#674: "Hey, it'd be pretty funny to have everyone forget Blackwing just like V spent the rest of the comic's run forgetting about Blackwing."

#943: "I want to integrate Blackwing into the party more. Hmm... for Haley, I'll include a throwaway line where she says she was just kidding before. Elan... hah, I could just say he actually forgot. I'll throw something together for Roy and Belkar later, maybe."

Having given this some more thought, I've come up with an explanation I personally feel is even more plausible, and doesn't require any hypothetical as-yet-unknown mysterious rift powers.

#674: "I need to isolate Vaarsuvius socially/emotionally from the rest of the party for most of this book, in order to explore the consequences of the soul splice, and his/her secrecy regarding those events, on his/her character. By having everyone else forget Blackwing, it would encourage Vaarsuvius to use him as a sounding board to the exclusion of other party members."

#943: "Now that Vaarsuvius has come to terms with the horror that he/she has caused during the soul splice, it's time to reintegrate him/her more fully with the party. It's time to have everyone start interacting with Blackwing again. Hmm... for Haley, I'll include a throwaway line where she says she was just kidding before. Elan... hah, I could just say he actually forgot. I'll throw something together for Roy and Belkar later, maybe."

I don't consider this to be a particularly elegant explanation for the way everyone nonsensically forgot and refused to accept Blackwing's existence, but I find it to be much more satisfying, and narratively interesting, than the idea that the whole thing was just a weird clumsy joke. At least it assigns a significant narrative purpose to the party's collective amnesia. It also has the added benefit of not requiring an explanation for all of the gaps and holes in the rift exposure theory, which I admit are quite significant.

No matter what reason you think the party ignored Blackwing before, Haley saying something about why she was acknowledging Blackwing now needed to be done. He can't just give no explanation, or that'd be even weirder. This was a quick and easy explanation that -- to most -- didn't raise any questions. It's just a couple panels that serve like a switch between 'Blackwing is ignored by everyone' to 'Blackwing is treated like an actual character now.'

I'm glad you agree that it was weird. This is actually one of the reasons I have a hard time accepting that it was just a joke - jokes shouldn't require blatant retcons hundreds of strips later in order to be explained. It's one thing to create a glaring set of inconsistencies in the service of a joke - but to keep calling attention to those inconsistencies, and then finally providing a clumsy explanation for one of them, suggests to me something with greater narrative purpose than a mere running gag.

The joke that they were all denying Blackwing's existence also makes it easier to justify why Blackwing wouldn't, say, just tell Roy what he saw in the rift. It allows Blackwing to serve as someone for Vaarsuvius to talk to who won't tell the rest of the party anything -- even the really important, relevant-to-their-quest stuff.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense to me in retrospect, and is the basis for my own pet theory.

[orrion]

I'm glad you agree that it was weird. This is actually one of the reasons I have a hard time accepting that it was just a joke - jokes shouldn't require blatant retcons hundreds of strips later in order to be explained. It's one thing to create a glaring set of inconsistencies in the service of a joke - but to keep calling attention to those inconsistencies, and then finally providing a clumsy explanation for one of them, suggests to me something with greater narrative purpose than a mere running gag.

Since when is the idea that the mind is not infallible a "blatant retcon" and where was it established that 5 members of the Order have an eidetic memory?

[Sir_Leorik]

Having given this some more thought, I've come up with an explanation I personally feel is even more plausible, and doesn't require any hypothetical as-yet-unknown mysterious rift powers.

#674: "I need to isolate Vaarsuvius socially/emotionally from the rest of the party for most of this book, in order to explore the consequences of the soul splice, and his/her secrecy regarding those events, on his/her character. By having everyone else forget Blackwing, it would encourage Vaarsuvius to use him as a sounding board to the exclusion of other party members."

#943: "Now that Vaarsuvius has come to terms with the horror that he/she has caused during the soul splice, it's time to reintegrate him/her more fully with the party. It's time to have everyone start interacting with Blackwing again. Hmm... for Haley, I'll include a throwaway line where she says she was just kidding before. Elan... hah, I could just say he actually forgot. I'll throw something together for Roy and Belkar later, maybe."

I don't consider this to be a particularly elegant explanation for the way everyone nonsensically forgot and refused to accept Blackwing's existence, but I find it to be much more satisfying, and narratively interesting, than the idea that the whole thing was just a weird clumsy joke. At least it assigns a significant narrative purpose to the party's collective amnesia. It also has the added benefit of not requiring an explanation for all of the gaps and holes in the rift exposure theory, which I admit are quite significant.

Why is it mutually exclusive for the entire party forgetting Blackwing be a plot point meant to turn Blackwing into V's Jiminy Cricket, while having a Brick Joke that Haley had actually remembered Blackwing and was denying she did back in Sandsedge as a practical joke? It's in character for Haley to lightly rib Vaarsuvius, and in this case all she did was egg the rest of the party on. Roy was the one who started the whole thing, Haley merely felt it was a chance to poke holes in V's ego after the whole Darth Vaarsuvius thing.

This is actually one of the reasons I have a hard time accepting that it was just a joke - jokes shouldn't require blatant retcons hundreds of strips later in order to be explained. It's one thing to create a glaring set of inconsistencies in the service of a joke - but to keep calling attention to those inconsistencies, and then finally providing a clumsy explanation for one of them, suggests to me something with greater narrative purpose than a mere running gag.

Why are retcons bad? In this case, the retcon is that Haley was blatantly lying through her teeth. Haley is the best liar in the group, and she once convinced a man he was a marsupial using her magically augmented Bluff score. This retcon is completely in keeping with Haley's previously established character: she's V's best friend; she likes to make light of situations; she's an accomplished liar. So that was used as the basis of a brick joke. Why is that bad?

[Loreweaver15]

How about we just put this discussion to bed. It was a joke, and not everyone got it, and not everyone who got it found it funny. Humor is subjective.

But...people are wrong on the Internet!

Having given this some more thought, I've come up with an explanation I personally feel is even more plausible, and doesn't require any hypothetical as-yet-unknown mysterious rift powers.

#674: "I need to isolate Vaarsuvius socially/emotionally from the rest of the party for most of this book, in order to explore the consequences of the soul splice, and his/her secrecy regarding those events, on his/her character. By having everyone else forget Blackwing, it would encourage Vaarsuvius to use him as a sounding board to the exclusion of other party members."

#943: "Now that Vaarsuvius has come to terms with the horror that he/she has caused during the soul splice, it's time to reintegrate him/her more fully with the party. It's time to have everyone start interacting with Blackwing again. Hmm... for Haley, I'll include a throwaway line where she says she was just kidding before. Elan... hah, I could just say he actually forgot. I'll throw something together for Roy and Belkar later, maybe."

I don't consider this to be a particularly elegant explanation for the way everyone nonsensically forgot and refused to accept Blackwing's existence, but I find it to be much more satisfying, and narratively interesting, than the idea that the whole thing was just a weird clumsy joke. At least it assigns a significant narrative purpose to the party's collective amnesia. It also has the added benefit of not requiring an explanation for all of the gaps and holes in the rift exposure theory, which I admit are quite significant.

I'm glad you agree that it was weird. This is actually one of the reasons I have a hard time accepting that it was just a joke - jokes shouldn't require blatant retcons hundreds of strips later in order to be explained. It's one thing to create a glaring set of inconsistencies in the service of a joke - but to keep calling attention to those inconsistencies, and then finally providing a clumsy explanation for one of them, suggests to me something with greater narrative purpose than a mere running gag.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense to me in retrospect, and is the basis for my own pet theory.

Here's a pair of questions for you, then: why would Rich have done your version of 674 without already having his out planned (since he has the whole plot planned out in outline at least), and how does it being a joke preclude it also being a setup for character development?

[Carlo]

Since when is the idea that the mind is not infallible a "blatant retcon" and where was it established that 5 members of the Order have an eidetic memory?

The retcon is that Haley was retroactively established as having been joking, when in #674 there was no indication to that effect. I've made no claim that anybody in the order has an eidetic memory, and nothing that I've argued requires that to be the case.

Why is it mutually exclusive for the entire party forgetting Blackwing be a plot point meant to turn Blackwing into V's Jiminy Cricket, while having a Brick Joke that Haley had actually remembered Blackwing and was denying she did back in Sandsedge as a practical joke?

It's not mutually exclusive, but one is a more satisfying explanation to me than another. Even if both were true, the former makes the clumsy deployment of the latter more justified, to my mind. Also, unless you're arguing that Haley's admission to having been joking in #943 is a funny punchline to an unfunny set-up in #674, this wasn't a Brick Joke.

It's in character for Haley to lightly rib Vaarsuvius,

I disagree, and in any case I don't interpret #674 as light ribbing.

Why are retcons bad? In this case, the retcon is that Haley was blatantly lying through her teeth.

Retcons are generally seen as sign of bad writing.

why would Rich have done your version of 674 without already having his out planned (since he has the whole plot planned out in outline at least)

He wouldn't! That's what attracted me to the rift exposure theory in the first place - my default assumption is always that Rich has his plot points planned out very far in advance; and the rift exposure theory, however nebulous and implausible, fit best with that assumption. Also, you do realize that not having an out planned is a weakness not only of my isolate-V-from-the-party theory, but from the joke explanation as well? That a joke would even require an "out" hundreds of strips later suggests to me that it isn't a joke at all.

and how does it being a joke preclude it also being a setup for character development?

It doesn't. But the latter would help to justify the necessity as well as the clumsy deployment of the former. I'm more willing to accept that Rich inflicted a bizarre amnesia on the party for the sake of a character development arc than for the sake of a running gag. If both are true, it's more satisfying for me to believe that the character development arc was the main goal, and the joke was merely forced into the comic in service of that goal, rather than being an end in itself (i.e. Rule of Funny).

[Carlo]

Here's the thing: there are plenty of people who thought it was funny. You're basing an entire argument--and your insistence that there must be something going on--on the premise that you didn't find it funny or sensible, and that therefore it must not be a joke, and if you can only reach the heart of the matter you'll figure out what dark secret the Giant is hinting at, a secret you've already said makes no sense whatsoever.

Here's the thing, though: as fantastic a storyteller and comedian Rich is, he is not infallible. Not every joke will strike everyone as funny; not every intentional contradiction for the sake of a chuckle is going to hold the same weight. You're faced with a large number of people who immediately responded to the construct of humor that I described with "oh, haha! That was funny." or even "Oh. Huh, that wasn't all that funny. Moving on." and all recognized it as a joke, and your conclusion is that it can't be a joke, because you're not laughing.

Rich didn't invert his joke because there was a contradiction; Rich made a contradiction because he was inverting his joke.

I invite you to consider these points I've made and reach whatever conclusion you like, but really, that's what we're all telling you: just because you're not laughing doesn't make it not a joke.

As I keep trying to explain, my conclusion that it isn't a joke isn't based simply on the premise that I don't find it funny. My point is that structurally, logically, aesthetically, it doesn't resemble a joke to me at all. The entire dialogue in #674 surrounding the party's non-recognizance of Blackwing reads to me as if the author were dispensing an important plot point, rather than telling a joke. That he took the time to lampshade the contradictions raised by that non-recognizance, and then later took more time to reiterate those contradictions and even explain one of them, reinforces that conclusion, to my mind.

Jokes have a logic of their own, they follow a range of rules and conventions (which can in turn be subverted or reinvented), by which we can identify them as jokes in the first place. Jokes typically contain elements in their format or delivery which indicate that humor was intended in the first place, whether it's the opening ("Knock-knock,") or the punchline ("Bah-dum-tss!"). Not every unexpected, non-sensical, bizarre, or self-contradictory event or utterance is intended as a joke, even if there are those that might find them funny.

You can show me a pile of rubble and insist that it's a house, and even show me how someone might squeeze underneath it and sleep there, but if I can't see a foundation, walls, or a roof, I'm never going to accept that it's a house. Regardless of how many people you can recruit to insist that it is one.

[Carlo]

I still don't think anyone from the Rift-theory side has addressed the initial failure of their theory that Blackwing was "suddenly" forgotten about in 674. That failure is that there are dozens if not hundreds of times prior to that the members of the Order (possibly including Haley) have forgotten about Blackwing.

Just for one example, 554. In this comic, Vaarsuvius, Elan, Diego, and Durkon all forget that V has a familiar.

What's that you say? Blackwing isn't in that comic?

EXACTLY.


Ah, right, of course. My trusted familiar is right here by my side, as he has been this entire time.

Every time you see a strip with Vaarsuvius but not Blackwing? That's V forgetting Blackwing. Every time you see a strip with V and someone else? That's both of them forgetting Blackwing. It's possible that they are seeing him and not mentioning him, but if you apply that logic you have to apply it to comic 674 as well.

The comic I linked is especially egregious in this regard - V needs a BIRD who can relay information. V already HAS a BIRD who can relay information, and is a darn sight better trained than some random parakeets.

If the Order is supposed to be remembering Blackwing here, why does nobody say anything about this? What a contradiction!

Blackwing has been consistently forgotten about for 500 comics prior to his Rift experience.

Or are we now saying the Rift applies retro-actively?

That the party doesn't remember Blackwing when he isn't there doesn't obviate the inherent contradiction of refusing to remember or recognize him when he's staring them right in the face, when they could do so in the past.

[Smolder]

I prefer the simplest explanation. In D&D, a familiar is generally considered an extension of the character that controls it. When playing D&D, it's rare to give the familiar any RP time. But if the familiar has information that the players need, such as what it saw when it went off on its own, then it's fine to acknowledge and even converse with someone else's familiar, and then go back to ignoring it.

[Porthos]

The retcon is that Haley was retroactively established as having been joking, when in #674 there was no indication to that effect.

That's not the definiton of the word 'retcon'. Retcon is, strictly speaking, CHANGING past events to reflect present reality. That is say, those past events never happened - here's what happened instead.

Establishing that someone had ulterior motives or was lying unbeknownst to others is no more a retcon than The Reveals in The Usual Suspects or The Sixth Sense were retcons.

[Sir_Leorik]

It's not mutually exclusive, but one is a more satisfying explanation to me than another. Even if both were true, the former makes the clumsy deployment of the latter more justified, to my mind. Also, unless you're arguing that Haley's admission to having been joking in #943 is a funny punchline to an unfunny set-up in #674, this wasn't a Brick Joke.

Once again, humor is subjective. I found both jokes gut-bustingly hilarious, because I get the context of jokes about Familiars. I'd like to say my Sorcerer Yehoash treated Ssillith much better than V treated Blackwing, but yeah, until that time Ssillith prevented a TPK at the claws of an Abberation that paralyzed the party, he was ignored, left curled up, asleep, in my pack. So I find V "forgetting" Blackwing funny, and the total inversion equally funny. And Haley's Bluff score is pretty high, even without magic.

I disagree, and in any case I don't interpret #674 as light ribbing.

You're entitled to disagree. You could call it mean, catty, or any of a hundred different unflattering terms instead of "light-hearted ribbing", but it fits in with Haley's ribbing of Roy when Roy wore the Belt of Femininity/Masculinity. What Haley did there can be interpreted as mean or light-hearted, but it's meant to be comedy.

Retcons are generally seen as sign of bad writing.

No. Bad writing is a sign of bad writing (and yes, I know that that's a tautology, but bear with me a moment.) Retcons are a legitimate tool for a writer, provided the retcon is not too blatant. In strip #674 Haley says one thing. In strip #943 she says that in strip #674 she was lying. Since there was no thought baloon where Haley thinks "Did V have a Familiar when we got separated at Azure City? Crap, I can't remember!" then the retcon would be a blatant contradiction. But there was no thought balloon, and we don't know what Haley was thinking. And since Haley is a known liar, I would suggest henceforth we take everything she says with an opposed Sense Motive check.

He wouldn't! That's what attracted me to the rift exposure theory in the first place - my default assumption is always that Rich has his plot points planned out very far in advance; and the rift exposure theory, however nebulous and implausible, fit best with that assumption. Also, you do realize that not having an out planned is a weakness not only of my isolate-V-from-the-party theory, but from the joke explanation as well? That a joke would even require an "out" hundreds of strips later suggests to me that it isn't a joke at all.

Unless it's a brick joke. Or a call back. Or a running gag...

It doesn't. But the latter would help to justify the necessity as well as the clumsy deployment of the former. I'm more willing to accept that Rich inflicted a bizarre amnesia on the party for the sake of a character development arc than for the sake of a running gag. If both are true, it's more satisfying for me to believe that the character development arc was the main goal, and the joke was merely forced into the comic in service of that goal, rather than being an end in itself (i.e. Rule of Funny).

What exactly is clumsy? Just because you don't find it funny doesn't mean it isn't a joke. It just means you don't find it funny. And I will defend your right to boo, jeer and heckle Rich Burlew for writing a joke that you groaned out, were puzzled by or just plain hate. But I really hate to see ridiculous epileptic trees continue to whisper, while the Smoke Monster coalesces into the Man-in-Black, offering a knife to the latest forum member caught up in a conspiracy to kill Jacob.

[martianmister]

Remember folks: Sometimes bad writing is just bad writing.

[Sir_Leorik]

Remember folks: Sometimes bad writing is just bad writing.

Pretty much. While I don't think it is a case of bad writing, I'd rather people were throwing tomatoes at the author than spinning elaborate conspiracy theories.

[Carlo]

You're entitled to disagree. You could call it mean, catty, or any of a hundred different unflattering terms instead of "light-hearted ribbing", but it fits in with Haley's ribbing of Roy when Roy wore the Belt of Femininity/Masculinity. What Haley did there can be interpreted as mean or light-hearted, but it's meant to be comedy.

The difference is that Haley was clearly signaling her intent to tease Roy in that strip. When she lies for the sake of a gag we've always been able to tell.

No. Bad writing is a sign of bad writing (and yes, I know that that's a tautology, but bear with me a moment.) Retcons are a legitimate tool for a writer, provided the retcon is not too blatant. In strip #674 Haley says one thing. In strip #943 she says that in strip #674 she was lying. Since there was no thought baloon where Haley thinks "Did V have a Familiar when we got separated at Azure City? Crap, I can't remember!" then the retcon would be a blatant contradiction. But there was no thought balloon, and we don't know what Haley was thinking. And since Haley is a known liar, I would suggest henceforth we take everything she says with an opposed Sense Motive check.

I said retcons are generally seen as signs of bad writing. The quote from the TV Tropes page goes "Comic book fans will be familiar with the term 'retcon', which in layman's terms means that the writer waves his hand and tells you 'Remember when we said this? We screwed up, forget about that.'" Yes, retcons can be deployed skillfully and can even be used to improve a narrative, but they're most commonly seen as devices used to fix or remove undesirable plot elements.

Unless it's a brick joke. Or a call back. Or a running gag...

I can't recall any brick joke, call back, or running gag that required an "out" to explain a narrative contradiction introduced by its set-up. Certainly none that were funny.

What exactly is clumsy? Just because you don't find it funny doesn't mean it isn't a joke. It just means you don't find it funny.

See my earlier response to Loreweaver15.

[Carlo]

That's not the definiton of the word 'retcon'. Retcon is, strictly speaking, CHANGING past events to reflect present reality. That is say, those past events never happened - here's what happened instead.

Establishing that someone had ulterior motives or was lying unbeknownst to others is no more a retcon than The Reveals in The Usual Suspects or The Sixth Sense were retcons.

That's actually what appears to have happened here, at least to me. In any case, from TV Tropes:

As the number of twists and misdirections in a story becomes higher, it becomes more difficult to tell whether an event actually is a retcon (which implies that the writers changed their minds), or a misdirection (which implies that the writers intended the "retconned" version all along, and had been deliberately misleading the audience before). In some cases, it is impossible to tell, short of reading the author's mind (even then, it might not helped, as it's entirely possible for an author to be on the fence about what they're planning to do).

[Carlo]

Pretty much. While I don't think it is a case of bad writing, I'd rather people were throwing tomatoes at the author than spinning elaborate conspiracy theories.

I invite you to quote where I, at least, have spun a conspiracy theory to any significant degree of elaboration. I've taken explicit and repeated pains to avoid doing exactly that.

[Keltest]

The difference is that Haley was clearly signaling her intent to tease Roy in that strip. When she lies for the sake of a gag we've always been able to tell.

You realize that Haley never actually uttered an untruth in either of those panels, which is the joke. In the first one she is objecting to Belkar's assumption that she took the potion on the basis that he is accusing her simply because she is a rogue. Note that she ignores his protests and actual evidence. In the second one, she allows the party to come to its own conclusions about the value of her "treasure" while being entirely honest with them.

[ti'esar]

Remember folks: Sometimes bad writing is just bad writing.

Amen to that.

[Carlo]

You realize that Haley never actually uttered an untruth in either of those panels, which is the joke. In the first one she is objecting to Belkar's assumption that she took the potion on the basis that he is accusing her simply because she is a rogue. Note that she ignores his protests and actual evidence. In the second one, she allows the party to come to its own conclusions about the value of her "treasure" while being entirely honest with them.

Semantics. In either case she was committing deceit.

[Sir_Leorik]

You realize that Haley never actually uttered an untruth in either of those panels, which is the joke. In the first one she is objecting to Belkar's assumption that she took the potion on the basis that he is accusing her simply because she is a rogue. Note that she ignores his protests and actual evidence. In the second one, she allows the party to come to its own conclusions about the value of her "treasure" while being entirely honest with them.

And in both cases she's using her Bluff score to get what she wants. That's what a really good con artist does, and Haley learned at the feet of the master: her Uncle Geoff. (What you think it was her dad? Her dad's just paranoid, yet Geoff managed to trick him for three years!)

[orrion]

The retcon is that Haley was retroactively established as having been joking, when in #674 there was no indication to that effect. I've made no claim that anybody in the order has an eidetic memory, and nothing that I've argued requires that to be the case.

Whoa there, I think you have some reading to do on the subject of a retcon.

A reinterpretation or clarification of an event is not a retcon. A retcon is the changing of past events, or the nullification of previously established events.

An example of the first is in the Wheel of Time series where the main character Balefires someone responsible for the deaths of a major character and the main character's lover (and another guy). All three are restored to life as a result and their deaths never happened. That's a retcon.

An example of the second is in Naruto, where the One-Tailed Shukaku is originally established to have been the soul of a mad priest rather than a construct of chakra split off from a primordial entity. The second explanation trumps the first as if it never happened, so that's a retcon as well.


943? Doesn't even come close to being a retcon.

A retcon in this comic would be.. let's say the Giant decides to have O-Chul give a monologue about how he really wasn't paralyzed by Xykon, and then he saw Miko enter the room, knew what she was going to do, and decided to destroy the gate himself. He states his play at being paralyzed was in an effort to infiltrate Team Evil's camp and learn stuff (like Xykon's spell list).

If O-Chul did that it would directly contradict several events that took place, like the fact that we saw Miko destroy the sapphire on panel.

[Kish]

The difference is that Haley was clearly signaling her intent to tease Roy in that strip. When she lies for the sake of a gag we've always been able to tell.

There's a Catch-22 there. If Haley lied and you couldn't tell, then you couldn't tell. There is no possible way to prove what you're claiming.

[Porthos]

That's actually what appears to have happened here, at least to me. In any case, from TV Tropes:

As much as I like it, TV Tropes isn't an authority on How To Write.

Also, if you look at the qualifier, it said "As the number of twists and misdirections in a story becomes higher, it becomes more difficult to tell whether an event actually is a retcon or a misdirection".

Now while Rich may surprise, he isn't pulling twists and misdirections left and right like shows like LOST and the like.

No, a misdirection is a misdirection. And when getting into character motivations, the bar for retcon becomes pretty darn high.

Now this doesn't mean you have to think what happened as good writing. But this was as much a retcon as Julio showing up was a Deus ex Machina.