The Elder Scrolls XIV: Good? Bad? I'm the one with the Thu'um!

[NovenFromTheSun]

I'm planning an Oblivion playthrough soon, can anyone recommend a mod that fixes the level scaling without removing it completely (I still want a sense that I'm not the only one increasing their skills)?

[Triaxx]

Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul. It doesn't quite fix it in the way you're hoping. But it stops the enemies from getting too much tougher.

Balmas, did you play without that?

[Techwarrior]

I just want something akin to a points system, instead of having to try and get 5s by not leveling skills. That was always the part that made me hate playing oblivion.

[Balmas]

I don't have the modlist on me, but I recall playing with a mod that made leveling up simpler, something like Madd leveler did for Morrowind. The problem was that while this allowed all attributes to rise without worrying about 10-10-Luck skill increases, it meant I also leveled up much more quickly. I think I installed OOO halfway through, but I'm not sure I did it correctly, since I still saw minotaurs, trolls, and unkillable goblins.

[Triaxx]

Yeah, OOO needed to be from the beginning since it adds absolutely tons of stuff.

[Caelestion]

OOO is my go-to mod for playing Oblivion, even more so than DarNified UI. More content, better distributed loot and monsters that don't automatically scale to your level.

I used to use KCAS for my levelling needs, but it's been so long now, there's probably at least a couple of better options since then.

[halfeye]

The biggest difference that favours Oblivion in my view is the ease of getting loot to shops and selling it.

You can carry a lot more, at least later in the game. Feather spells actually stack, and you can stack feather potions too (to a limit of four, which is three more potions than Skyrim).

The limit on the shops ability to buy is per item, which is very silly, but it's not stupidly low unlike Skyrim's per shop limit.

[Caelestion]

I was always a fan of Enhanced Economy, which gives the game a much more MW-like system.

[DigoDragon]

1/ Leveling up needs to be dealt with carefully. You can do 5-5-5 with 5-5-luck leveling, that will leave you somewhat overpowered, which is enjoyable, but not as challenging as may be ideal (the default system gives you on average something like 1-2-2, which is not enough, I'm kind of thinking of a playthrough trying to get 3-3-3 or 4-3-4 or something like, I won't be doing that for a while yet if I ever do). I've seen it argued that for a Thief character, the default leveling system works fine (I never play thieves, so it may be true for all I know).

Uh... I'll figure out this new language later when I play the game. I'm sure I'll find a decent leveling system to work with given all the recommends here.

[Triaxx]

I'm going to give Maskar's overhaul a go. I didn't see anything that should prevent a mid game install.

[LibraryOgre]

Uh... I'll figure out this new language later when I play the game. I'm sure I'll find a decent leveling system to work with given all the recommends here.

To simplify: You get to increase 3 attributes each time you level. Depending on how much of that level depended on improving certain skills, you get better improvements. So, if you used a lot of Strength skills in that level, you might get 3 or 5 points added, if you increase strength. Didn't use a lot of Speed skills? Your speed will only improve 1 or 2 points.

Luck is the odd one out; no skills key off it, so you can only add 1 point per level to luck. Some people don't both, wanting 5-5-5 on every stat, every level. Others will go with 5-5-Luck, figuring the luck improvement is worth it.

Me, I just suck up and deal. I level only when my character is required to sleep to get some event.

[Triaxx]

I've played through the entire game at level 2. Because that's when you can get Azura's Star.

[Aeson]

YI've seen it argued that for a Thief character, the default leveling system works fine (I never play thieves, so it may be true for all I know).

I did an archer/assassin character once, which is similar, and my experience was that as long as you can avoid getting into combat you're fine, but I found that I'd often run into situations where single sneak attacks won't kill fairly basic enemies (let alone elite or boss enemies), and it can be difficult or impossible to become hidden again after revealing yourself with an attack at low levels. There are also a number of areas where sneaking past enemies really isn't an option without a very high sneak skill or magical assistance, even ignoring that a lot of the quests require you to fight something.

Also, bit of a personal opinion, but I really don't think that Oblivion is designed to support thief-type characters very well. If you stick to the cities, you'll rapidly run out of new things to do - I'm pretty sure you can burgle every house in any city other than the Imperial City in one or maybe two nights, though the castles are marginally more challenging - while if you go questing or dungeon-delving, chances are you'll be forced to a more combat-oriented playstyle, at least at low levels when Sneak doesn't allow you to hide in places where only the blind or the brain-dead couldn't spot you. There are also the issues that the vast majority of in-city locations contain little of any real value - a great many miscellaneous items are literally worthless to the player character, and even high-end clothing has so little value that it's hardly worth taking - and that fencing stolen goods is inconvenient, especially if not part of the Thieves' Guild. The best way to make money as a thief in Oblivion, especially at low levels when even the jewelry is barely worth stealing, is to steal food items and turn them into potions, but most food items, and even many other potion ingredients, are so cheap that you could make almost as much profit by doing the same thing legitimately.

[Caelestion]

Funnily enough, Sorcerer Dave opined literally the opposite and I agree with him. In MW, no one had any schedules, so burgling was a matter of murder and theft or attempting to sneak around without being spotted, and Skyrim has small, fairly dull cities (Markarth is still small, but easily the most visually distinct), so thievery is even less fun than in Oblivion.

I'll highlight OOO again as a QoL upgrade for thieves, because it alters the values of clutter and often puts really valuable stuff in wealthy neighbourhoods.

[Triaxx]

He's also been flagging Better Cities, which adds more places to steal from.

[Caelestion]

Yes, but I never used BC (I was always one for Open Cities) and I still agree with him.

[Triaxx]

When I first played Oblivion, I had a Potato. Now I'v have a properly powerful computer and don't like Open Cities itself. So...

[Caelestion]

So, what's the problem?

[Triaxx]

Too many issues, which are simply correctable by not having Open Cities. Plus after discovering Better Cities, I can live with a few load zones.

[Aeson]

Funnily enough, Sorcerer Dave opined literally the opposite and I agree with him. In MW, no one had any schedules, so burgling was a matter of murder and theft or attempting to sneak around without being spotted, and Skyrim has small, fairly dull cities (Markarth is still small, but easily the most visually distinct), so thievery is even less fun than in Oblivion.

I'll highlight OOO again as a QoL upgrade for thieves, because it alters the values of clutter and often puts really valuable stuff in wealthy neighbourhoods.

I didn't say that Morrowind supported a thief playstyle better than Oblivion did, I said that Oblivion didn't support a thief playstyle well. Personally, I think that Morrowind and Oblivion are about equally bad at supporting a thieving playstyle, just in different ways. Oblivion's NPC schedules create opportunities to steal things, but there's almost nothing worth stealing, and the schedules are so predictable that you hardly need to study a target's schedule to figure out a good time to try to rob him or her; Morrowind may be somewhat lacking in good opportunities to steal things in most areas with NPCs, but the items laying around the place are often actually worth taking (both in an in-game monetary sense and in a utility-to-the-player sense).

Also, while unmodded Morrowind doesn't have scheduled NPCs, it does have patrolling NPCs, and its lockpicking mechanic doesn't freeze the universe the way that Oblivion's does. If you're trying to pick a lock somewhere on one or more NPC patrol routes, having a quick, reliable way to open a lock (whether it's the character having a high security skill and at least one lockpick, or having a spell, scroll, or enchanted item for opening locks) and picking a good time to attempt to do it is more important in Morrowind than in Oblivion, where you only need a brief moment when NPCs cannot see you and you'll be fine as long as you don't run out of lockpicks before you can beat the minigame.

Oh, and if we're bringing mods in, do be aware that there at least used to be mods that added schedules of some fashion to Morrowind NPCs. If Oblivion having nothing worth stealing isn't evidence for Oblivion not supporting a thieving playstyle because mods can fix that, then Morrowind not having NPC schedules is also not evidence for Morrowind not supporting a thieving playstyle, because mods can fix that.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Bah. Just when I think I'm making progress in NifSkope, the Creation Kit decides not to play nice. Presently it looks like a new skin - which looked fine in NifSkope - is somehow going from mostly blackish in Nif to a lovely and alpha-transparency-free shade of lavender in the CK. At a guess the specular map is somehow becoming visible, but it's using the vanilla version of that.

[Triaxx]

Speaking of Oblivion Mods, now that it's working for me again, I'm tempted to restart my LP with Maskar's Oblivion Overhaul in it from the start, and a slightly more focused character build. I've never played with it before and I'm wondering if anyone else has? I've seen Oscuro's done to death so I'm kind of interested in something new.

[Balmas]

So, Fudgemuppet just released a video on why Enchanting sucks, and I think they make some good points. Namely, enchanting sucks because it's a super powerful skill.

A player who makes the most of enchanting can easily craft items that are as good or better than artifacts blessed by the gods themselves. Why use an artifact of stamina absorbtion when you can craft an item of both stamina and health absorbtion, and in greater magnitudes to boot? Why bother with Chillrend when you can put the same enchantments on a more powerful weapon? The only artifacts that are competitive with what you can make with Enchantment are the things that you can't make with Enchanting, usually due to unique effects.

The other side of the coin is that if a character doesn't use enchanting, that character is severely gimped comparatively, and will struggle in the higher levels. Try fighting dragons without resist magic clothing, or playing a mage without spell cost reduction gear. Even a pure warrior suffers without his armor of fortify weapon skill +lots%, to the order of being half or a third as effective.

A third problem with Enchanting is that one skill allows you to replace every other skill. Want to be a mage? Congrats, you now have zero-cost spellcasting that lets you be a master wizard for no further investment. Want to be a thief? Even if you have no skill in thievery, you can make up an amulet of muffle, gloves of pickpocketing, boots of fortify sneak, and bam! Instant thief. One skill replaces all the rest.

On a personal nite, I'll note that this is particularly problematic because enchanting is so bloody tedious to raise. At 1 XP per item enchanted, you're looking at a grind of around 310 items to go from 15 to 100 in Enchanting. And it is a grind; while you could theoretically get to 100 enchanting over the course of an entire game, you're unlikely to make 310 items unless you really work at it.

Crafting skills in general are kinda lackluster in Skyrim, but Enchanting's the real problem child. It's boring to raise, but is practically required for every character thanks to the power it offers.

ADDITIONAL: If skill discussions aren't your thing, how about Chadwick?

[DigoDragon]

On a personal nite, I'll note that this is particularly problematic because enchanting is so bloody tedious to raise. At 1 XP per item enchanted, you're looking at a grind of around 310 items to go from 15 to 100 in Enchanting. And it is a grind; while you could theoretically get to 100 enchanting over the course of an entire game, you're unlikely to make 310 items unless you really work at it.

Don't you get an exp point for reverse engineering a magic item to 'learn' the enchantment?

I remember filling a companion's inventory full of empty soul gems and giving them a soul-capture weapon so that after a dungeon crawl I had a bunch of cheap gems to enchant something on all the vendor trash I collected. Yep, lots of grinding indeed.

[Triaxx]

Umm, like smithing, XP gain is controlled by the final cost of the item. Which is why Fortify Sneak and Destruction are the two best effects to learn.

Personally except during the very early game, ore when it's built-in the Archmage's Robes, I get along just fine without any cost reduction.

[veti]

Umm, like smithing, XP gain is controlled by the final cost of the item. Which is why Fortify Sneak and Destruction are the two best effects to learn.

'Fraid not. You get exactly the same Enchanting exp for using a petty soul gem to add +1 fire damage to an iron dagger, as you do for using a black soul gem to add 30 points Drain Fatigue to a daedric greatsword.

And the best monetary value that I've found comes from 'fortify carry weight'.

Don't you get an exp point for reverse engineering a magic item to 'learn' the enchantment?

You do, and that experience makes me think there's some gross oversimplification going on with this "1 XP per enchantment" talk. Because you get way more experience for learning some enchantments than others. Most noticeably, armour/clothing enchantments are worth way more than weapon enchantments.

I agree that enchanting is overpowered. But on balance, not much more so than smithing.

[Triaxx]

Ah, I see, I had it confused with disenchantment.

[Keltest]

A quick google check seems to indicate that the size of the soul gem used is the determining factor in how much XP you get for creating an enchanted object.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Bah. Just when I think I'm making progress in NifSkope, the Creation Kit decides not to play nice. Presently it looks like a new skin - which looked fine in NifSkope - is somehow going from mostly blackish in Nif to a lovely and alpha-transparency-free shade of lavender in the CK. At a guess the specular map is somehow becoming visible, but it's using the vanilla version of that.

Turns out the pink color was the Creation Kit telling me that just because Nifskope was happy with the skin's file path didn't mean that it was. Now I get to figure out why some of the new stuff won't show up in the actual modded game.

[Balmas]

There are three ways to gain Enchanting experience: enchanting items, disenchanting things to learn new enchantments, and recharging enchanted items with soul gems. Enchanting one item gives you a fixed amount of XP regardless of the value, enchantment, or soul size used. Disenchanting an item gives you more XP if you disenchant a valuable item than a less valuable item. Finally, recharging a weapon gives you more XP if you use a larger soul gem, which makes the Black Star ideal for quickly grinding XP.