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Thread: Quick fix for wizards.
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2016-02-02, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-02, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
I can build a level 6 character than can kill the Tarrasque. Some monsters have weaknesses, some of them are huge (the Tarrasque) some of them are small "If you have enough HD, energy immunity, Greater Invisibility, and a very large number of save or dies or a very high DC, you can kill a Pit Fiend that refuses to run away."
Although, looking at it again, you actually have to be evil to be able to even draw against a Pit Fiend. Because otherwise they just permalock you until your spell durations run out and then kill you.
Now, the Shades trick that allows you to kill it in one round instead of like, 5-6 any one of which he could just leave, is broken. Shades emulating Trap the Soul is broken, Archmage SLA trap the soul is also broken.
Anything that bypasses Trap the Soul's material component cost is going to be broken.
But absent broken Shades/Trap the Soul interaction, Broken Gate, Broken Planar Binding, Broken Dominate Person, Broken Shapechange, Broken Incantatrix, Broken Arcane Thesis, yes, skipping out on specifically those things, you actually can't beat a Pit Fiend, and unless you are evil, you die, and if you are evil, then you still have a best case scenario of a Draw.
Of course, all of this is based on you trying to use sleight of hand, A 17th level Wizard is a 20th level Wizard, they are the same character, because they cast the same spells, and that's all the character is, a vehicle for spells. So yes, a 20th level Wizard with sufficient optimization can be an unoptimized straight out of the MM Pit Fiend with no money spent.
Of course, if he as a custom treasure that includes a True Seeing item, then you just die. But you know, whatever.
Actually, he draws against a CR 20 monster without treasure (and probably with treasure) and he draw against an EL 22 encounter, which is not the same thing as a CR 22 encounter. Adding more monsters with the same flaw isn't very impressive, a level 17 Cleric can also easily beat 13 12 headed PyroHydra and 13 12 headed CryoHydras, an EL 22 encounter, because minion clearing spells like Holy Word exist, and immunity spells like Energy Immunity exist. And flight Exists.Last edited by Beheld; 2016-02-02 at 07:40 PM.
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2016-02-02, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
It's not, that's the point. The Wizard isn't, say, teleporting in an archer whose BAB and feats plus the bard's buffs overcome the Pit Fiend's AC and deliver the Holy Arrow of Asswhooping. The wizard is going in solo.
The Wizard is not imbalanced against the CR system. The Wizard is unbalanced against the Core noncasters. Largely because the game was designed for low-level to mid-level play, with the higher level spells implicitly intended to be tools the BBEG wields against the mid-level heroes.https://thaumasiagames.blogspot.com/
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Dad-is-the-DM
Homebrew quick-fixes for Cleric, Druid: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326
Replacing the Cleric: The Theophilite packagehttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318391
Fighter feats: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310132
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2016-02-02, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-02, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-03, 05:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
It is both actually. CR system assumes you play as 4 player, with distinguished roles. If a class can solo encounters designed for 4 people, it is not balanced against both CR system and to other classes as well. If a party containing 4 of the same class, not just overcomes the level appropriate challenge, but obliterates it, there is definitely a design flaw here. I completely agree with you on the bold part of the quote though.
Let me elaborate why I think wizard is a badly designed class, from example of Beheld:
The wizard in given example has just stated some items to boost his CL and casted spells. No class features(from PRC that advances wizard casting), feats, or any other essential items. Yet still can triumph over a CR 20 pitfiend, with a 40% chance outright killing him on the spot. CR system, as noted by Beheld, assumes he has a chance of losing of 50%, which as it seems, hardly comes into play. While, as a team game, you would need your teammates to cover your weaknesses, a wizard could simply say "Just tag along, I got this by myself".
The spells casted on the wizard are from ranging schools, from necromancy to illusion, probably as well as abjuration. Wail of the banshee is a 9th level spell, while superior invisibility is 8th level. Both are from different schools, with widely different themes and powers, and both are high level. This kind of versatility without giving up any power, with the combination of powerful spells granted by the wizard spell list, what makes wizard class unbalanced and poorly designed, therefore a bad point for balancing the classes.
As a side note; Eventhough I admit tier system is not a good point of view to discuss balance, I do not look any differently to other T1 classes (I hate druid). However, if you block archivist spell selection by banning divine alternatives of arcane classes, wizard spell list is the strongest.
This is me being lazy actually. I just wondered if there is a way to overcome Blasphemy with a 17 level full caster, maybe a spell, maybe an item, maybe a way to count your HD higher for spells like this. +3 caster levels, as well as HD increase and 6 more spells known definitely increases the power of wizard.
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2016-02-03, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
I would argue for placing the balance point at tier 1 for the sheer benefit of strategic and tactical freedom the tier provides. At any level the players are making more choices, and thus more interesting decisions than any other balance point. Keep in mind playing an optimized wizard even under constraints only seems easy when you have fairly extensive knowledge of the options. The class itself has some of the most complex choices to make. As an added bonus learning spells by scribing means you regret choices that end up being poor less because it's cheaper to find new spells to scribe than get knowstones or equivalent. This is much more friendly a mechanic than a set limit on spells known per level for new players in other words. They can make ''wrong'' choices without being punished as hard. Naturally you'd have to adjust the CR system to the rise in player power, but it's hardly well put together now, and you can do better with a more solid grasp on consistent player power potential.
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2016-02-03, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
Under that regime, players are pretty much limited to clerics, wizards and druids, maybe Sublime Chord Bards with another ACF to let them have prepared casting from a full list.
Am I wrong? That's a plausible game, but is it the game you intend? (OK, Beheld might still play a Rogue.)
And with that game, do you need anybody else at the table besides a GM?
MAybe as the player base ages and dwindles, that's a feature not a bug, transitioning from a group game to a partner game?Last edited by johnbragg; 2016-02-03 at 08:54 AM.
https://thaumasiagames.blogspot.com/
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Dad-is-the-DM
Homebrew quick-fixes for Cleric, Druid: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326
Replacing the Cleric: The Theophilite packagehttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318391
Fighter feats: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310132
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2016-02-03, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
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2016-02-03, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
True. But the point is, with a high-level Tier 1 in the party, do you need any other players?
Or is the game optimization chess with the DM? (Which is a perfectly fine game and not Badwrongfun if that's what you like.)
I'm just wondering what gameplay is like with high system-mastery players running Tier 1 characters in upper-level games.Last edited by johnbragg; 2016-02-03 at 09:21 AM.
https://thaumasiagames.blogspot.com/
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Dad-is-the-DM
Homebrew quick-fixes for Cleric, Druid: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326
Replacing the Cleric: The Theophilite packagehttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318391
Fighter feats: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310132
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2016-02-03, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
This is incorrect on an explicit level and an implicit level. First, the game is not balanced on 4 players with different roles, the rules explain how ELs apply to parties of 1 and parties of 10. 4 Characters of the same "role" are balanced the same way as 4 parties of different "roles" because no part of the rules state that balance is predicated on "roles" at all.
Implicitly, you are wrong because you are trying to imply that those 4 roles have to be covered by different classes, but they really don't, any possible role in the game can be covered by the Cleric, and they clearly intended that, because you don't give a class Divine Power and Find Traps and Banishment if you don't want him to be able to do all those things.
1) Optimization matters, I can do the same thing with a Rogue and Fighter. I also explained how a Pit Fiend can kill the Wizard by having custom item choices that cover for his huge glaring weakness. Hell if he has constant Mindblank from an item, then the Wizard may never find him and he can just assail locations with summons and undead from safety.
2) Level 20 always has and always will be a bad example. The game becomes a fundamentally different game that breaks down at level 15. High level characters are not playing the same game at all, and they basically operate entirely based on the concept of dictating the terms of engagement. Level 20 is also never played. If you want to complain about how Wizards are broken, because they are too strong for the CR system, use an example that involves a Wizard from level 1-14. If you can't, then the argument you make based on a CR 20 is flawed.
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2016-02-03, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
Usually I focus on making enemies fit to the players (I helped pretty much all my players save three make T1 characters, and all but one have run T1 characters) but also focus on RP. Most of the time it's just a fun thought experiment and combat is secondary to halfway decent RP.
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2016-02-03, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
If you are under level 15, yeah you need other players. Level 15+ is a bad example, because it is fundamentally not the same kind of game anymore.
If a level 1-14 Wizard needs the party to deal with challenges of CR = his level without dying, I'm fine with that, because I've only played one game in the last 3 years at higher level than that anyway.
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2016-02-03, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
Your point is a good one, but there's one point I think needs to be slightly modified.
The original wizard class had fewer hit points in a game in which area effects could (and did) kill characters. They didn't get an army of followers like Fighting Men (yes, that was the class name) in a game that was intended to lead to large scale battles. And spells only went up to level 6. And against anything but spells, their saving throws were not as good.
Wizards had higher power (though not horribly), paid for by higher risk.
Over time, however, the power level kept trending up, and the risk level kept trending down.
Wizard was a moderately well designed class. It has been badly updated.
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2016-02-03, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
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2016-02-03, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
Only at high levels, where you had enough HP as a cushion against whatever. A 2E wizard at 5th level had 5d4 hit points, with a max +2/level for Con, for 30 hp max. Pretty squishy. Average Wizard 5 with 15 Con (+1/level, IIRC) 4 (max) + 4d4 + 5 = 19 hp. At level 10, 9d4 + 9 + 3 = max of 48 hp.
High level wizards had enough HP to get by, and enough power to more or less rule the world. But the idea was that most wizards would not survive to those levels. The idea was that the wizard was balanced over a campaign--he spent the first few levels hiding behind the fighter and casting one or two spells per day, before becoming a BBEG in his own right at double-digit levels.
And Amazon magic mart was not a thing. (It existed depending on your DM, but was basically limited to the items in the DMG--there weren't generic rules for a permanent item of SL X at CL Y for Z,000 gp.) The default assumption that any magic item is available boosts everyone, but as usual, the casters have the best ways to take advantage.https://thaumasiagames.blogspot.com/
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Dad-is-the-DM
Homebrew quick-fixes for Cleric, Druid: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326
Replacing the Cleric: The Theophilite packagehttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318391
Fighter feats: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310132
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2016-02-03, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
I'm pretty sure that encounter enders like sleep and color spray already existed in 2E. Also defenses that blocked access to the wizard's measly HP like mirror image did also exist then.
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2016-02-03, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
https://thaumasiagames.blogspot.com/
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Dad-is-the-DM
Homebrew quick-fixes for Cleric, Druid: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326
Replacing the Cleric: The Theophilite packagehttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318391
Fighter feats: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310132
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2016-02-03, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
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2016-02-03, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
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2016-02-03, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
That's not really balance though.
First, the ability of Fighters to kill Wizards is just one data point in terms of Fighter/Wizard balance. Because Fighters don't fight Wizards, they fight monsters. And yes, some of those monsters are Wizards. But the vast majority aren't.
Second, "should they close to combat" is glossing over huge swaths of what high level Wizards could achieve even then in terms of summons and defensive preparations.
Third, as levels go up combat is an increasingly small part of what you actually do. A 1st level party might be called upon to go to the town graveyard and kill some zombies, a task which is wholly dependent on personal combat ability. A 10th level party might be called upon to conquer and administer an enemy nation, a task for which simply "being good at fighting" is woefully inadequate.
That's a good jumping off point to a much deeper issue, actually. As long as the Fighter is defined by "fighting" he is going to be ineffective in the face of higher level challenges which can be bypassed, negotiated with, bribed, investigated, tricked, built, or any verb other than "fought".
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2016-02-03, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-03, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-03, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
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2016-02-03, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-03, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
NPCs were always more of a threat than monsters mainly because of a wider set of options. I guess it depends upon the game, but in the AD&D games I ran this sort of combat was common.
True, but less so than in 3.5. There were no immediate actions, or Quicken, and I would expect a Fighter to shrug off most spells thrown at them. During the combat the Fighter would doggedly aim to close, whilst the casters would keep each other occupied.
There wasn't a skill system so Fighters were not stopped from pursuing other options - at least not quite so much. One of the problems with Fighter in 3.5 is the poor selection of class skills to the extent that the 2 skill points per level isn't even a restriction.
Well I always regarded playing a Fighter as dull, whereas in 3.5 they just become irrelevant.π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
Completely Dysfunctional Handbook
Warped Druid Handbook
Avatar by Caravaggio
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2016-02-03, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
You bet your hide you need the other players. While all tier 1s will eventually learn literally everything and have a wide array of answers to any given problem, different classes get different answers faster/better/more cheaply and that MATTERS for a long time even at really high levels of optimization. Similarly you're likely to face more enemies who cast or have casting equivalent abilities and you need more caster bodies just to keep the resources on both sides somewhat even for most of the game.
At high level, while everyone could easily answer any problem from even a level or two earlier alone, competently played caster enemies on a somewhat even level keel are scary enough for a team to be desired.
Now lets assume you've reached a point where all the classes could in theory solve any problem alone. Thing is four heads think of ways of making their solutions HILARIOUS much more efficiently than just one.Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2016-02-04, 01:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
Ettins and titans and trolls, oh my.
Devout skillmonkey checking in.
This has been a good thread. Among my peers I'm considered a pretty good optimizer of rofyes n clerics. But around this bunch i sometimes haven't much to add. I play clerics because "we need a healer" and rogues because i love it. My favorite thing is to void or win major encounters with paying attentio, and creative use of mundane abilities. I certainly can't beat everything that way, but I'm pretty good at it. Our party once beat a dragon because i grappled it, lol.
This is really one of the best line s in this thread.
I don't enjoy games past mid op 15th level, and like 3 to12 best. I also like story better than combat.
I swear this has happen ed TOO many times, lol.
I like Grod's style, and his fix(es). But the important thing to remember the market. People WANT to have simple options
Like fighters.
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2016-02-05, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
A. You can't develop a high-level Tier 1 without other players. Three kobolds killed her at level 1, or some such.
B. A good DM keeps finding ways to involve all the characters. Eventually they should find themselves stuck in an anti-magic field, and need the fighter to break down the door or the Rogue to pick the lock.
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2016-02-05, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick fix for wizards.
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2