Blood Bowl in the Playground II: It's Going To Be Elves Again, Isn't It?

[LCP]

The thing is - you can't force a decent coach to score early by beating up their other players far away from the ball-carrier, or worse, gang-fouling them.

*puts hand up*

I don't think I'm the best coach in the league by a long shot but I hope by this stage "half-decent" applies to me. You can absolutely pressure me to score by gang-fouling my players. Not always, but a lot of the time.

(A) we're in a league. If my star player gets gang-fouled into retirement (or an early grave) that might lose me multiple games, and gang-fouling is by far and away the most effective means of breaking armour. Even if it's not a key player, if you have a bashy team then I don't particularly want to let the injuries snowball start rolling; the fewer players I have on the pitch, the easier it is for you to block the remainder down and the more injuries I'll take.

(B) in this scenario, I already have a touchdown in hand! Particularly if I feel my position has come about due to good play rather than jammy dice, I'll absolutely score fast rather than let my rearguard get their teeth kicked in. The match is looking good enough for me that my opponent has no feasible way to touch the ball carrier on a meaningful timescale; chances are therefore good that more drives = more TDs for me. And if I'm genuinely in such a crushingly dominant position that my opponent needs multiple turns to even set up a threat to the ball carrier, it doesn't seem sporting to torment them with clock-running.

Outside those parameters (I feel like my roster is in danger, I feel confident I can keep the TD balance in my favour), sure, there are plenty of cases where gang-fouling won't induce me to score any faster, and I definitely agree that given the chance to put meaningful pressure on the ball carrier, that's definitively the better choice. But to say that a good coach will never break to foul pressure - particularly against teams with specialised fouling players - I think that's just propaganda that the top coaches are trying to spread so people don't foul their teams

I guess it's also a function of playstyle - I almost exclusively prefer bashy teams, so my eye is more closely on the attrition game and if I indulge in clock-running it's only ever going to be for one or two turns, since I'll take my time getting up the pitch. Still, thought I'd offer my perspective.

[Silfir]

In many respects, Blood Bowl is just an overly elaborate game of 'Chicken'. The concept of stalling a touchdown until the perfect moment relies on your nerve not breaking under pressure, and with some teams - especially ones with utterly expendable pieces like Necromancy, Nurgle and Khemri - the ONLY way to make them sweat is to make them think they're about to lose the ball because nothing else really matters to them.

Spot on. Necromantic is one of the more resilient teams around, and anyway my team is early in development and doesn't have any star players to get overly concerned about for as long as I don't have a Mighty Blow werewolf.

The match is looking good enough for me that my opponent has no feasible way to touch the ball carrier on a meaningful timescale; chances are therefore good that more drives = more TDs for me.

That mindset is completely foreign to me. I would never assume that I will score on defence. I try my hardest to, I sometimes manage to, but I never count on it. That's because the expected result between coaches of equal skill and equal team quality is that the receiving team will either score or be stopped by the halftime bell, depending on how the dice come down.

If I were to assume or, through my actions, suggest to my opponent that I am expecting to score on defense, and I'm not playing a vastly superior team, that's more or less like saying "You are not good enough for me to consider you my equal". That's just asking for the wrath of Nuffle to come down on your house.

And if I'm genuinely in such a crushingly dominant position that my opponent needs multiple turns to even set up a threat to the ball carrier, it doesn't seem sporting to torment them with clock-running.

That's something I worry about when I'm actually ahead in touchdowns, not when the scores are level and the final result hinges on my ability to defend the drive after I score the lead. In cases where I do have a 3-0 lead or something, of course I won't bother running out the clock; at that point both sides are hopefully aware that the rest of the game is only about the SPP.

A dominant position can be highly illusory, and it usually vanishes in a puff of smoke once the previously dominated team rolls for KO recovery and sets up anew. As long as the scores are level, I'm not dominating diddly squat. And I play accordingly. It would baffle me to think that anyone could consider that unsporting.

[Brother Oni]

The thing is - you can't force a decent coach to score early by beating up their other players far away from the ball-carrier, or worse, gang-fouling them. They will shrug off any injuries suffered that way and take the free (or much, much easier) win.

I know I can't force a decent coach to score by injuring their players, but given the option of marking up only for your team to knock me back down, I'll take what I can get.
If the opposing coach only focuses on winning their current game, rather than thinking about later games then any suffered injuries are basically ignorable - you may as well save yourself the 50TV on the Apothecary, reducing/increasing the inducements instead.

With a team that's 6 MA and 3 AGI across the board, I don't think I should be able to stall for that long if you focus your efforts on preventing me from doing it.

I think you underestimate the effectiveness of Block against a team with Frenzy but without Block. Between your Blodge Ghouls and your Block Wraiths, it made avoiding falling into Frenzy traps very difficult, especially since I only had 1 player with Block (Juggernaut notwithstanding).

You also outnumbered me before I took your Ghoul and Flesh Golem off, so you could afford to have one on one marking and still have your Werewolf free.
Again I tried to dodge away from a number of your players and the three tackles I took show how it was only moderately effective. In a perfect example of Nuffle humour, my Bloodthirster passed a 6+ dodge when I hadn't seen you stand up a zombie which was hidden behind the BT.

I also want to point out that I never attempted an important dodge without a reroll in hand. The odds of those dodges succeeding were therefore at 91% each, meaning I succeed at nine for every one I fail. I don't think I dodged nine times. You did well to force me to dodge with the ballcarrier several times in the match - I hate doing that, reroll notwithstanding.

I'm fairly sure you had around 9 dodges, with you only needing one or two rerolls from Dodge itself. Again, I'm not complaining about what you did, just that it's frustrating not to be able to pin down your players.
I'd preferred to have hit your ball carrier, but your caging was too good.

You mentioned after the game how poor dice rolls mask weaknesses in gameplay - surely the opposite would be true of the other team rolling well highlighting artificial weaknesses?
I don't claim to be the best coach (barely competent is about what I rank myself as), but the dice were fair to me in that game - your rolls were just better when you needed them to be.

That mindset is completely foreign to me. I would never assume that I will score on defence. I try my hardest to, I sometimes manage to, but I never count on it. That's because the expected result between coaches of equal skill and equal team quality is that the receiving team will either score or be stopped by the halftime bell, depending on how the dice come down.

You should play Wood Elves more then. They're experts at taking the ball away from an attacking team and scoring defensive TDs.

Bashy teams can manage it to an extent but are more reliant on the opposing team failing AV rolls. I always try to score defensive TDs (or at least threaten the ball carrier) even when it would be better tactically to go full defence.

In cases where I do have a 3-0 lead or something, of course I won't bother running out the clock; at that point both sides are hopefully aware that the rest of the game is only about the SPP.

Casualty SPP is still SPP and if I foul or crowd surf enough of your players off, then that gives me a better chance of succeeding on blocking and hence more AV rolls.


On a separate note, page 50. I believe the Nuffle title suggestion is in the lead with 2 votes, so I'll start up the new thread in a bit.
Edit: New thread up.

[Silfir]

I have played Wood Elves, and I have scored defensive TDs with them, but it's still never the expected result when you line up to kick. Best strategy on defense is elf stall; avoid contact wherever you can and put up anti-cage barriers, and have your Wardancers pounce on a chink in the cage if it does arrive as a result of the caging team trying to get past the stall. Whether you can grab the ball in any ensuing scuffles and run downfield to win isn't really the important bit. The strategic goal is to prevent the opponent from scoring when they receive. That's what I plan for. And because scoring becomes harder the less time you have to do it, stalling is part of that plan.

I *will* pounce on opportunities, no question. Of course I will. It's not like I'm claiming defensive touchdowns don't happen, or even that they're super rare. But when the score is level, and I have the ball in hand in reach of the endzone and have to weigh only the timing of when I score, the absolute last thing on my mind is that I might be able to win 3-1 if I score right now. If they have anything resembling a team left on the pitch, a 2-2 will be the more likely result, and there is no good reason for me to risk that.

Not even the potential loss of a player. You've got to crack some eggs to make an omelette. It's not like your players will be a whole lot safer after you score; if you do it early, you have to use them on defense, and they could get beaten up then as well.

[Devmaar]

The Stabbery 1-3 Sun's Children


The elves kicked off and ended the first half 3-0 down after a blitz ruined the 2 turn td attempt and led to a turn 7 lizard score. I scored more casualties but suffered enough kos that The children had a numbers advantage a lot of the time. I honestly think I could have managed a result were it not for snake eyes on some particularly key pass and dodge rolls...


So anyway, this was the week when my Dwarves couldn't take a punch and my Elves couldn't throw a pass

[Silfir]

Pssst...

Got a new thread over here for ya. All the cool kids are going there. Also all the uncool kids. Basically everyone, really.