OOTS #615 - The Discussion Thread

[Randugulf]

I love the My last breath... is also my mintiest... line but what does manga mean?

[RMS Oceanic]

Manga is a catch-all name for Japanese comic books and graphic novels. Something that happens a lot in said medium in fight scenes is that the combatants often yell out their attacks.

[Lunaya]

Manga, as in Japanese style comics. Kinda surprised but not really that Celia wouldn't help Haley fight. I wonder..what would Roy say?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Technically speaking, isn't the yelling out of attacks more an anime thing, not a manga thing?

This was amazing. I totally want the mint bow now.

[jacenokelly]

I don't really see a problem with Celia blasting Thog and whats his beardy face. She specifically says she does not want to risk KILLING people. her lightning is probably (though I'm not a D&D expert, just judging from the picture) an area of effect spell. Sure, she might have been able to aim just at the high level ones, but what if one of the many mooks running around wanders into the spell area? And thog + beardy were probably high level enough that she didnt need to worry.

Also, AoE + wounded comrade surrounded by targets =/= anything good.

Just some thoughts

[UltraDude]

Technically speaking, isn't the yelling out of attacks more an anime thing, not a manga thing?

This was amazing. I totally want the mint bow now.

Okay, writing the attack names IN BIG LETTERS WITH EXCLAMATION MARKS IN SPEECH BUBBLES!!!!! ARGGGHHHHH!!!!! *hair turns blond, world blows up*

Mr. Technical.

Now I'm off to purchase a cherry flavored bow...

[Ramien]

Hostage taking is a very bad idea. The old Belkar would have just killed/removed the hostage first, then proceeded to slice and dice his way through the shocked thieves.

Now, though...

Spoiler

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I imagine we're going to hear someone tell Celia to duck right before her captor gets an ice arrow and/or dagger to the eyes. V could show up, but it's a remote possibility, since Celia and Haley haven't been out of the scry-proof room for very long, and I don't think V's actually grabbed a Teleport spell yet.

[holywhippet]

Two thoughts-

a) I wonder if Hank and Belkar have any kind of history together. They are both evil aligned halflings.

b) Can Celia plane shift at will to return home? She might be able to solve her capture by just shifting back home..

[Nevitan]

Two thoughts-

a) I wonder if Hank and Belkar have any kind of history together. They are both evil aligned halflings.

So?
That would be like saying Thog and Therkla could have history just because they are both evil aligned half orcs.
Sure its a similarity and might come up if they met, but it certainly doesn't imply back story.

[Obscurejones]

Celia is a useless nuisance. She has done nothing in the last arc but repeatedly be annoying or put herself in needless danger because she doesn't understand how the real world works. While that makes her an effective college student it makes her an annoying character.

Also Minty Bow is cool.

[Martok]

"My last breath... is also my mintiest..."

Easily my favorite line in this comic!

[Terbovus]

NARG! Blinkin' Celia.

More Belkar goodness please!

[The Minx]

Celia is a useless nuisance. She has done nothing in the last arc but repeatedly be annoying or put herself in needless danger because she doesn't understand how the real world works. While that makes her an effective college student it makes her an annoying character.

Also Minty Bow is cool.

The "real world" being defined as one where people fight for their lives on a daily basis. She is not accustomed to fighting for a living, like most people in the real "real world". She may even have cultural objections to killing, being from a race which cannot be raised from the dead.

Though I agree that she's still getting to be annoying. A classic damsel in distress, except one with X levels of sorcerer spells, including lightning bolt. I suspect she'll have to get through some maturity related character growth pretty soon.

[Cracklord]

I don't get why people seem to object to Celia not killing people, but are fine with Belkars wholesale slaughter of innocents (at least, relative innocents. They're sure as hell innocent next to him.) It's a comic for godssake.
I mean, Celia's classic 'Damsel in distress thats got everyone so annoyed is just a long running joke on how callous adventurers are on everyones lives.
I mean, Belkar was a one joke character for almost 500 strips. Give her a chance to develop.

[Nevitan]

I don't get why people seem to object to Celia not killing people, but are fine with Belkars wholesale slaughter of innocents (at least, relative innocents. They're sure as hell innocent next to him.) It's a comic for godssake.
I mean, Celia's classic 'Damsel in distress thats got everyone so annoyed is just a long running joke on how callous adventurers are on everyones lives.
I mean, Belkar was a one joke character for almost 500 strips. Give her a chance to develop.

A chance to develop?
She's been around for 562 strips!

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't get why people seem to object to Celia not killing people, but are fine with Belkars wholesale slaughter of innocents (at least, relative innocents. They're sure as hell innocent next to him.) It's a comic for godssake.

Personally I can understand that. It is consistent. I can't get those who complain that Celia isn't killing people and yet objects to Belkar's violence.

[John Campbell]

Well, we've now officially "come down" from the string of unrelentingly awesome strips. I miss Belkar and the Cleric already. Still pretty nice, though.

Odd thing here: why did Pete have an Axiomatic bow of all things?

I wondered that too, since it's pretty clear from the fact that I've lost track of the multiplier on his multi-cross that he's Chaotic. A couple of possibilities occurred to me, though: 1) Trophy. He took it off some Lawful sucker that he sniped. 2) He went up against other Chaotics often enough that he considered the +2d6 damage worth the negative level.

It also occurs to me that going against a thieves' guild, Haley might find that a worthwhile tradeoff, too.

Though I probably would've taken the icy burst, too. (Actually, my current Rogue PC, in Haley's situation, would've just pulled one of his many, many backup weapons and gone to town on Crystal. If she's attacking my weapons while I'm attacking her, I bet she runs out of hit points before I run out of concealed weapons. Especially since one of them is adamantine.)

I don't think V's actually grabbed a Teleport spell yet.

V cannot learn teleport. V gave up access to the entire Conjuration school, which includes teleport and its relatives, to become a specialist wizard (evoker, I think). V states this explicitly somewhere around the Cliffport side-trip, though I'm too lazy right now to hunt down the exact strip.

[David Argall]

1.) Crystal wasn't necessarily the one to blind him the first time. We only know she was the one to blind him after he got his eyes regenerated.

True. However, we would assume he would have gotten his eyes repaired fairly quickly. Maybe a year or two to let the heat die down and let Bozzak to find other things to take care of, and to get the funds together.
Also Bozzak seems to have taken control some time after 1177. We know Haley's dad was around until then, and in 609, Bozzak tells us that he arranged for dad to go West shortly after Bozzak became the new boss. So if Bozzak ordered his blinding, it probably happened after 1177. [Not certain. Bozzak may have discovered Pete selling secrets and got a promotion years earlier for rating him out. But the obvious reading is that Pete got blinded about 1178 and reblinded about 1180. and in 1182, Haley left town with knowledge of Old Blind Pete.]

2.) We don't know that Pete was still winning trophies up until the point of being blinded. Those may represent his best years, but he may have hit middle age (with attendant Dex loss) long before the blinding incident.

Now that makes some sense. He is old blind Pete, so his best years could easily be quite awhile ago. Maybe...
Pete hits middle age about 1165, and starts losing the contests. He is no longer able to live in the style he would like and starts selling out the guild a few years later. Bozzak discovers this about 1175+ and blinds Pete just before or after he gets the top job. [He also arranges for Haley's pop to be lured into a trap about 1178-9.] A couple of years later, Pete is reblinded by Crystal. Old Blind Pete would not become old until 1183, after Haley had left town, but Haley can do the math and Crystal and any friends may well have given Pete some permanent damage just to make sure he got the message, and for fun. So she may have assumed he was distinctly older than he was.

[The Minx]

Personally I can understand that. It is consistent. I can't get those who complain that Celia isn't killing people and yet objects to Belkar's violence.

It has to do with the fundamental difference between the wholesale and pointless slaughter for his own amusement which Belkar is guilty of, and fighting to save the lives of her friends and companions like that Celia refuses to do. You can also be guilty through inaction, after all, and Haley is supposed to be her friend.

[Hamilkar]

omg rofl lol

... Well I mean this was very funny... reminds me of mentos the freshmaker... only you die too.

Ah and the thief guild will soon cease to exist!

[Natural20]

Man, what a badass bow. Deliciously deadly arrows? Sweet.

[icantdrawrocks]

Actually, let me revise my thoughts on Celia's pacifism.

Celia indicates to Haley that she didn't save her from Bozzok and Crystal because of her principles - but we know it was actually because she felt she couldn't be of any help.

And note that Roy has a better accounting of Celia's abilities in that strip than Haley does in this one. (Granted, Haley probably couldn't see the exact situation very well, but the operative parts are really just: there's Bozzok, there's Crystal, there's a prone Haley.)

You know what I'm starting to think?

Spoiler

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I'm starting to think that Celia was never actually a pacifist.

She never actually describes herself as one - when we're introduced to her "pacifism", it's from a Lawful perspective ("there are laws against murder"), Roy's not there, and it's a result of a very similar situation - she's scared of facing 30 hobgoblins while it's no sweat for Haley and Belkar. In fact, it's Haley who brings up the idea that maybe Celia's a bit reticent about killing - and only after that does Celia really hint at being a pacifist, saying "Thirty? That's like an army!" as though she's more scared about how easy they will be to beat than the idea of beating them at all.

I think she may have made up the "I'm a pacifist" story on the spot ("Uh, yeah, I don't kill as a matter of principle, that's it") because she was ashamed that, even with her lightning attack, she was far less useful in combat than Haley or even the MoJ-slowed Belkar because she hadn't spent years gathering XP. And I think Roy knows this better than Haley because he's dated Celia and wasn't privy to Celia making up her story. And I think Rich has planned this all out from the start and when it comes out we'll all think "Rich, you magnificent bastard!" and "Morgan, you clairvoyant fool!"

Well, #532 implies that Celia is vegan, which also fits into the pacifist stereotype.

As for the comic, while Celia's refusal to fight is annoying, it is a story. How interesting would it be if the Order just blasted through everything without breaking a sweat? Not very. Though I suppose Belkar fans will say otherwise...

Not to mention Celia's principles are very much reflective of real life beliefs. Most people don't kill for a living.

[paddyfool]

What the hell is wrong with Celia? Self defense against an evil theif's guild is against her principles, but using an evil defenseless ranger as bait is a-okay?

It's the Roy's GF syndrome. Roy seems to have so far been only attracted to women who fulfill negative alignment stereotypes. So far, these have been Lawful Stupid, and Stupid Good. Luckily, Stupid Evil, Chaotic Stupid, and Neutral Stupid all seem to be unlike him, so with any luck this will have run its course with Celia.

On the variable acceptability of lightning at different stages in the comic - well, a person's philosophies can change. Also, it could all depend at what level Celia took Vow of Nonviolence/Vow of Peace.

EDIT: What bothers me most about this comic is how a blind old guy could have kept such valuable loot stashed safely in his house in Greysky City all this time... maybe there's a curse or something.

[mistformsquirrl]

Your gonna have some angry Manga fans over that line.

I dun see why <@.@> I'm a huge anime/manga geek and thought it was *hilarious* lol

"CHARGING GRAPPLE ATTACK!!"

Its especially funny given people yelling out spells/sneak attacks <,< So its really just poor fighters who don't get to shout at people!

*edit*

@Paddyfool - <. .> This is why she should have taken Vow of OMGYOUSTABBEDOUTMYLUNGS. Although perhaps less powerful at high levels, it is nontheless effective against anything vulnerable to critical hits <. .>

[Athaniar]

Obviously, Yor is Roy's unknown evil twin brother. Before long, Nale will hire him into the Linear Guild along with Yelah, Rakleb, Nokrud, and Suivusraav.

[Drascin]

Odd thing here: why did Pete have an Axiomatic bow of all things?

If he had many disputes with the Thieves Guild, that only makes sense. Chances are like 80% of the guild is some variety of Chaotic.

[Yuki Akuma]

Technically speaking, isn't the yelling out of attacks more an anime thing, not a manga thing?

No.

No it is not.

In manga, it's very hard to show exactly how super-special attacks work unless you devote a lot of frames to them. Therefore, they usually just portray the strike and have the character yell out the name of the technique so the reader knows what the hell is going on.

When manga are adapted as anime, they keep the attack calls. And now it's so ingrained in anime in general that even original series, that don't have the same limitations as manga, still do it.

[ilcane87]

Celia is a goner, it was obvious since the very moment she stated that she couldn't be resurrected.

[Amarsir]

Here's another things: Now I know the sigils could only be activated by Good individuals, and thus were effectively protecting themselves. But Celia identified herself as guarding the sigil. Hard to see how she got that job. That girl is too pacifist to guard your seat at the movie theatre.

[Kish]

Odd thing here: why did Pete have an Axiomatic bow of all things?

He was probably Lawful Evil.