Pathfinder Tier System

[Curious]

Oh, forgot to mention: I would demote the Barbarian to T5, since its charger tricks are mostly gone and using its main class feature makes it much more likely to insta-die.

Actually, I'd say the barbarian is still a tier 4; some of it's totem rage abilities are pretty good. And where do people get this idea that raging equals instant death? The SRD says the raging hit points are temporary, and thus lost first. So if you go unconscious it isn't like you immediately die.

[Shadow Lord]

I basically agree with this. Paizo wasn't trying to totally re-balance the game; they were trying to make it so that taking a straight class was more fun and had less dead levels. I would say they succeeded at this, providing you aren't playing a very high-op game.

EDIT: Navar. You are wrong. Skill points do not equal tier 3, especially since most skills aren't worth much. The only class that might be able to claim a hold on tier 3 with nothing but skills would be the rogue, and that's because it has faaaaar more than 5 ranks a level.

Yes, but that combined with being more than decent at combat makes a Fighter qualify for T3, in my opinion; decent at a bunch of things, really good at one.

[subject42]

I keep seeing this claim that the Fighter can do all these wonderful things with his skills due to amalgamation and cross class ranks (not just here), but he still only gets 2+int per level. What, exactly, is your stat priority on this skill monkey intimidating fighter? You're pumping what are normally the two lowest priority stats for a fighter*, making him more MAD than a monk.

You're generally going to have 13 int as a fighter, and if you're human, that's 4 - 5 skill ranks per level depending on what you choose to do with your favored class bonus. There are 33 total skills in Pathfinder. You can either have 15% of all skills maxed out per level, or spread them out. Given that you couldn't go cross class in 3.5 without blowing a feat or cutting your effective skill ranks in half, it's not terrible compared to what came before.

Rangers can do more things, yes. But notice how T3 is entirely composed of 2/3 casters. Their utility is going to trump a Ranger's utility every time**. I'd say the ranger is high T4, but he doesn't go above that until he starts sniffing 6th level spells or similar abilities.

As I mentioned before, it's debatable as to which tier Rangers are in for PF. I argue that Favored Enemy and favored terrain changes, along with slightly better casting, puts them into low Tier 3 due to increased versatility. It really could go either way.

Bards are farther from T2 than they were before. Diplomancy and mass suggestion with ridiculous perform-based DCs and various out of core uber-buffer tricks are gone, replaced by a class which is essentially a wizard/rogue in a can. Replacing overpowered tricks with a touch more versatility is fine by me, of course, but it doesn't make the class T2.

Bard is definitely still T3. You can't shatter a game into fragments like you can do with a Sorcerer or Psion.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Actually, I'd say the barbarian is still a tier 4; some of it's totem rage abilities are pretty good. And where do people get this idea that raging equals instant death? The SRD says the raging hit points are temporary, and thus lost first. So if you go unconscious it isn't like you immediately die.

The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points.

So yeah. To be honest, I've only skimmed the various rage powers. Which ones are nice?

[IthroZada]

The SRD says the raging hit points are temporary, and thus lost first. So if you go unconscious it isn't like you immediately die.

The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...n#TOC-Rage-Ex-

Edit: Swordsage'd

[Shadow Lord]

Also; I consider all PF classes to be T3. Except Cavailer. And maybe a Monk.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Until a fighter can jump high enough to hit a flying caster by level 8 (I'm being generous here, I honestly think they should at level 5) get mettle, and get improved mettle or evasion, it's not tier 3.

Edit.

You're generally going to have 13 int as a fighter, and if you're human, that's 4 - 5 skill ranks per level depending on what you choose to do with your favored class bonus. There are 33 total skills in Pathfinder. You can either have 15% of all skills maxed out per level, or spread them out. Given that you couldn't go cross class in 3.5 without blowing a feat or cutting your effective skill ranks in half, it's not terrible compared to what came before.

Oh, so now all fighters have bonuses in at least four abilities?

[MeeposFire]

Also; I consider all PF classes to be T3. Except Cavailer. And maybe a Monk.

Monks are terrible. They somehow managed to buff them slightly and then find new ways to nerf them while also not fixing their innate problems.

[Shadow Lord]

Until a fighter can jump high enough to hit a flying caster by level 8 (I'm being generous here, I honestly think they should at level 5) get mettle, and get improved mettle or evasion, it's not tier 3.

Jump ( +30 ) Potion, 8 ranks, and skill focus. That good enough for you?

[Curious]

So yeah. To be honest, I've only skimmed the various rage powers. Which ones are nice?

Oh dammit. Apparently my book is a little out of date. Ah, well, that sucks.

Anyways. The beast totem line is good, since it gives you pounce. Come and Get Me seems like it could be useful, and there's one that gives you an extra attack as a swift action once a rage. There are some other good ones, but I'm not much of a barbarian aficionado, so doubtless others could give better advice.

[Curious]

Jump ( +30 ) Potion, 8 ranks, and skill focus. That good enough for you?

No. They'll just fly higher.

EDIT: Dammit, double post.

[Shadow Lord]

No. They'll just fly higher.

Then I take out a bow and shoot the dang thing!

[Curious]

Then I take out a bow and shoot the dang thing!

And since you are using a bow, the majority of the feats you spent to improve your fighting ability with a sword are now wasted. The wizard has just nullified your greatest advantage with one spell, and now he casts wind wall to destroy your ability to fight even further. Congratulations, you have just been introduced to batman.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Hm, Beast Totem. Pounce at level 1 for 10 feet of movement is better than Pounce at level 10 for significant investment in rage powers you probably won't even fully utilize (weapon probably > claws), and you still have the whole instant death problem... but Pounce is Pounce. Low T4 it is.

[Shadow Lord]

And since you are using a bow, the majority of the feats you spent to improve your fighting ability with a sword are now wasted. The wizard has just nullified your greatest advantage with one spell, and now he casts wind wall to destroy your ability to fight even further. Congratulations, you have just been introduced to batman.

Fine then. I'll just wait you out.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Jump ( +30 ) Potion, 8 ranks, and skill focus. That good enough for you?

A consumable item is not a class feature. Winged boots also don't count as a class feature.

Also, they can now get 13 feet high in the air. Remind me, how high can wizards get in the air while using Fly?

Good thing I also caught the ninjas, because bows aren't gonna do much to someone who can cast windwall, protection from arrows, etc.

Edit: more ninjas! How are you gonna wait it out when the wizard keeps throwing spells at you?

[Shadow Lord]

A consumable item is not a class feature. Winged boots also don't count as a class feature.

Also, they can now get 13 feet high in the air. Remind me, how high can wizards get in the air while using Fly?

Good thing I also caught the ninjas, because bows aren't gonna do much to someone who can cast windwall, protection from arrows, etc.

Edit: more ninjas! How are you gonna wait it out when the wizard keeps throwing spells at you?

Why, because of my lucky d20.

[Curious]

Fine then. I'll just wait you out.

In which time he dumps a solid cloud on your head and proceeds to bombard you with SoD spells until you fail a will save. Good game.

[Shadow Lord]

In which time he dumps a solid cloud on your head and proceeds to bombard you with SoD spells until you fail a will save. Good game.

We're talking eighth level here, sir. I can just wait 'til you have no spells left.

[Curious]

We're talking eighth level here, sir. I can just wait 'til you have no spells left.

A wizard never runs out of spells. Really, you should know that by now.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why, because of my lucky d20.

So now you're relying on a d20 instead of your character.

Also, at 8th level, the wizard has magic missiles, fireballs, lightning bolts, etc, and what's this? That fly was a bonus spell because he was a transmuter? Good times.

[Shadow Lord]

So now you're relying on a d20 instead of your character.

Also, at 8th level, the wizard has magic missiles, fireballs, lightning bolts, etc, and what's this? That fly was a bonus spell because he was a transmuter? Good times.

Ah, but my Fighter took a feat that gives him Cake.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ah, but my Fighter took a feat that gives him Cake.

So now you have some unspecified feat that gives you what you want? That really helps your argument.

[Shadow Lord]

So now you have some unspecified feat that gives you what you want? That really helps your argument.

You do realize this entire argument has been a joke? A fighter ain't gonna beat a wizard, no way, no how. If I was taken it seriously then I would say that the Wizard wouldn't have gotten of the ground, because I didn't let him.

[MeeposFire]

Seriously you are making a case of a tactic where a 3.5 monk would be better. That is not a place you want to be.

Barbarians are still hosed if they are not getting full attacks with their primary weapon. That is too much of a weakness to exploit for tier 3. They are in tier 4 just like before.

[Curious]

I think this threads gotten a little off-topic. Here's another class that needs clarification! The Pathfinder paladin is a heck of a lot better than the 3.5 one, and along with it's combat ability and reduced MAD it has spells. So, does it count as a tier 3 now?

[Shadow Lord]

I think this threads gotten a little off-topic. Here's another class that needs clarification! The Pathfinder paladin is a heck of a lot better than the 3.5 one, and along with it's combat ability and reduced MAD it has spells. So, does it count as a tier 3 now?

Definitely. In fact, I daresay it ranks alongside the Ranger, or perhaps higher.

[subject42]

Oh, so now all fighters have bonuses in at least four abilities?

If they want to trip or use combat expertise, they'll have an int of at least 13. Given that trip is considered the bread and butter fighter build, it's not an unreasonable assumption, especially when all PF races have a net +2 to their base stats.

[SuperFerret]

A wizard never runs out of spells. Really, you should know that by now.

And how exactly? Cantrips?

[Curious]

And how exactly? Cantrips?

By being high level. Really, at that point it's extremely hard to run out of useful spells. A more literal way to do it is to use echoing spell; it allows you to use the same spell once more in the day. Apply echoing spell again. Infinite spells.