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Thread: Is Durkon Good?
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2011-07-27, 06:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Is Durkon Good?
Is there any evidence that Durkon is Lawful Good, rather than Lawful Neutral?
Neutral vs Good is one of those areas in DnD where I've always struggled to understand the distinctions.
Durkon helps the Order against Xykon, the Linear Guild, etc - but so does Belkar, so that's not a great argument. And it's not like Durkon voluntarily left his homeland to take up the battle.
On the other hand, we've seen Durkon fail to support the order several times, where it clashes with his Lawful principles: against Miko, and to break Roy out of prison in the Empire of Blood. As opposed to Roy, who is willing to break the rules, when the rules are evil, and it serves the greater good.
And if Durkon is LN, that might help explain why he gets on with Malack so well?
NB: Don't have the Origin of the PCs book, so could be missing stuff in there.
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2011-07-27, 07:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
Good and willing to help the order in every situation are not synonymous. In the case of the fights against Miko, he used first his information, then his informed belief to do what he thought was both right and best for everyone. Given that that was merely inaction, in a situation where inaction did not cause harm, it can hardly be taken as indicative of non-good. Durkon could be validly criticized for insubordination and even arrogance in those situations, and that is really about it.
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2011-07-27, 07:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
I'm almost positive Durkon has been stated to be LG in the comic somewhere. He just leans more towards his Lawful side (due to his Dwarven heritage), whereas Roy leans more towards his Good side.
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2011-07-27, 07:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
Durkon didn't fail to support the Order against Miko out of self-interest. He genuinely thought it was for the good of the Order. And turns out in the long run he was right.
Two good people disagree on what the good thing to do is. Just because two good people disagree does not make one of them not good.
I don't understand this perception (which many people seem to have) that a good person and an evil / neutral person can't hold a polite and friendly conversation. Heck, Elan and Tarquin got along just fine until Elan realized the things that Tarquin was doing. Durkon has yet to see Malack do anything objectionable."And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine
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2011-07-27, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
And when Elan found out that Tarquin burns people alive for fun, he was sickened and horrified. Because the definition of Good - in the DnD universe at least - seems to be hating Evil acts and wanting to do something about them.
Hence, I don't think it's really possible for a Good person to knowingly be sincerely polite and friendly to an Evil person - the most they can do is edge around the chasm.
Durkon however, doesn't seem to care that much. Even if he hasn't seen anyone do anything explicitly evil, it must at least be clear that the Empire of Blood is a brutal despotic regime: Haley was pretty clear on that very quickly. But this doesn't seem to bother him.
As I said, I don't really understand what 'neutral' means on the good/evil alignment scale. But if Good is doing something about Evil when you see it, and Evil is about doing whatever you want, if you think you can get away with it, then maybe Neutral is not doing anything about Evil, unless it affects you personally, or you've nothing better to do.
Which seems to describe Durkon rather well.
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2011-07-27, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
If the scale of the person's reaction here is a gauge of their alignment- with mild reactions being Neutral and strong reactions being Good:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html
then the fact Durkon is nearly passed out, might be an indication.
In the strip Durkon does seem to care a lot about innocents in trouble- and help them. He tries to steer the bandits away from evil, as well.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2011-07-27, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
"*Gasp!* You worship a different god than me, and it hasn't got the same alignment as my god! CLERIC BATTLE TO THE DEATH!!!"
This is the defination of Good now?I won a thread. Am I pathetic to list that in my signture? Yes. Of course I am.
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2011-07-27, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
"Punish those that harm or threaten innocents" is a part of Lawful Good. Worshipping a Neutral deity isn't really part of that.
Worshipping an Evil deity is a bit more objectionable to Good characters- if Malack's deity is evil. The evidence is a bit limited.
Even then, while objectionable, a Good character in a polytheistic world may have to accept the presence of devotees of Evil gods.
Thor and Loki are foes- but Durkon is still willing to ally with Hilgya- during their solo arc in DCF. Only when it's clear she's doing something more objectionable- refusing to fulfil her "duty as a dwarf" does he break it off.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2011-07-27, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-07-27, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
Um. I don't think I actually said that.
I think my argument was more along the lines of: [Evil] I burn people to death for giggles! [Good] *slaps face* Then, Sir, We Shall be Friends No More!
I would expect Durkon to oppose Malack, because he's clearly supporting a regime that is clearly evil - not because Malack worships a God of questionable morality.
But, on the other hand, I would expect Durkon to oppose Crimson Mantle because he worships a God that is clearly Evil, and is clearly out to harm and threaten innocents. AND because Crimson Mantle is clearly Evil.
Isn't that the duty of all Good heroes?
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2011-07-27, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
Evil and Guilt are not one in the same.
I seem to remember a situation involving a certain paladin and a certain crown.
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2011-07-27, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
But we have seen Malack do nothing of the sort. Durkon has not condoned any evil actions on Malack's part. They have talked about things that mostly they share in common, without getting into alignment details much. Their discourse has never progressed into any topic for which they would have to be less than cordial.
Again, he has yet to see Malack do anything hostile or evil. Malack has been hospitable and kind to Durkon. Perhaps Durkon understands, as a good person, that he should not rush to harm or oppose someone, or fight fire with fire, if you will. Durkon seems to want to do good and help others until that option no longer becomes viable - he is, after all, a cleric, whose thought process and life are shaped by healing. Durkon as a cleric seems to choose diplomacy and tact when possible (Miko is another example) as opposed to Roy, a fighter, who naturally chooses combat and tactics.
For that matter, neither does it seem to bother Roy. Roy isn't interested in starting an uprising or defeating Tarquin. Sure, these folks are evil, but they are currently keeping the continent in some form of stability, and the OOTS has a bigger fish to fry - saving the world and getting to the gate. Perhaps Durkon is simply coolheaded enough to stay focused. Again, this doesn't at all mean that he condones the Empire.
Furthermore, while I believe Malack is probably evil, the fact that Malack is part of the Empire is not conclusive proof of his alignment.
The OOTS has to deal with problems in the order of their severity. That means gate first, empires later. Breaking Roy and Belkar out of imprisonment might have resulted in their recapture (even Ian has been hunted down post-escape) and the start of hostilities with the Empire. The OOTS doesn't need another enemy at the moment - they have the LG and Xykon to deal with already. Furthermore, one must wonder what the OOTS could feasibly do about the Empire. Nothing. they have neither the manpower nor the time, at the moment. I don't think that's neutral to say so... Roy, for example, seems to understand this. And he's good.
Everyone has their own way of combating evil. If Durkon befriended Malack and redeemed him to the side of the light, would that not also be a method of dealing with Malack's supposed evil?"And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine
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2011-07-27, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
Clear? Yes.
Clear to Durkon? Not so much.
As good as a guy he is, he had always seemed to be very naive in a dwarven way. He had never been good at seeing what humans regard as injustice. He seems to be so tied up in his dwarven values of discipline and loyalty, that he can't understand that many people want more freedoms. He's just blind towards oppression if it does not include open displays of violence.
From a neutral point of view, I'd say the evidence mostly does hint towards a LN alignment, but as a cliche D&D character, his degree of being nice is enough to let him pass as LG. The staqndard to being a good character is usually not very high.We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
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2011-07-27, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
Wow, I thread I never envisioned. I never questioned Durkon's goodness.
If for the other characters the amount of harm they endure is not easy to ascertain, it's clear Durkon get's really sick. Only good characters are sickened by Unholy Blight. In later strips I haven't seen Durkon doing stuff that would impact his alignment (like it happened for V).Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).
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2011-07-27, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
Durkon's friendship with Malack might even me a sign that he's good. Even if Malack is Evil (There's mroe evidence for him being Neutral), it would mean that Durkon is accepting their alignment differences and looking past them for the sake of keeping the peace. That's more Good than automatically attacking someone for disagreeing.
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2011-07-27, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
I'm not up to date on DnD sourcebooks. However, google tells me that unholy blight affects both Good and Neutral alignments. Neutral alignments take half damage and are not sickened.
Doesn't explain why Durkon would appear to be affected worse than the others (or at least differently) - but then the effects don't seem completely inline with the spell description. Also, as this is before strip 100, is it treated as canon?
That said, I agree there's no clear evidence Durkon is Neutral either.
Personally, Malack creeps me out, and I find it hard to understand why a Good character wouldn't avoid him: but I take the point that there are strong arguments why a Good character could be motivated to do just what Durkon is doing.
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2011-07-27, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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"And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine
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2011-07-27, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
He worships Thor. To worship Thor, your alignment has to be only one part off from him. Thor is CG, so Durkon could only bt CG, LG, or CN.
We know he's incredibly lawful, so LG is the answer.
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2011-07-27, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
If Durkon was going to attack someone because that person has a job working for a predominantly Evil nation, he would be a female samurai-paladin and we would call him "Miko."
Anyway, Durkon is Lawful Good.
He is not, however, a paladin, and can associate with whomever he wishes. He puts up with Belkar, after all, and Malack is much more polite and far less violent.Rich Burlew
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2011-07-27, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
Heh :) Yay for official confirmation.
I think of it this way--Roy is more Good than Lawful; Miko was more Lawful than Good; and Durkon seems to be about equally strongly Lawful and strongly Good.
When you have a corner alignment like that, you've got to pick a side.
I've had characters who were strong-L, strong-G before. It's a difficult balance to make because your loyalties are essentially divided between two different ideals. On the one hand, you want to help others; you genuinely care about their welfare, and you want to build a society where everybody can live in peace and safety. On the other hand, you want to keep order, be honorable, be disciplined, do what your family and your nation and your deity expect of you.
Most of the time, those two ideas are okay together; but sometimes, they can clash pretty badly. Say you encounter a legitimate authority doing horrible or misguided things--do you side with the rebels and probably cause societal chaos, or do you side with the government and try to change how they do things, knowing that you might not succeed? Or those rebels: They're stealing things, spying, lying, being thoroughly dishonorable; but they seem to be the only ones who really care about the peoples' welfare--what now?
I once played a paladin who had issues with her own deity because of that--LG paladin, LN deity. And then the church orders her to hunt down heretics... which, sooner or later, will end up with her chasing after the people who objected to the LE clerics in her own church, and probably for reasons she'd agree with. I'm sorry I never got to stay in that game, really. It would've been an interesting situation to play out.
Durkon isn't particularly emotionally expressive, so he's not going to dramatically angst about it. But like every other LG character out there, he's dealing with divided loyalties. Nothing says he can't be civil to Evil-aligned people. In fact, that's pretty typical of LG on average--they'll be quite civil to their enemies, because for most of them, that's part of being honorable. Depends on the person, obviously. It sure isn't Roy's style. But being civil to people, talking to them amiably, does not mean you agree with their cause. It doesn't even mean you wouldn't fight them to the death if they started eating babies in front of you or something. It just means you believe in being polite to everybody, and not going axe-crazy the moment you hear they've been taking the tags off mattresses or the hearts out of blood sacrifices.Last edited by Callista; 2011-07-27 at 02:11 PM.
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2011-07-27, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
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2011-07-27, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-07-27, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
Thread closed then?
Oh rather, it should be closed, seeing as Rich probably knows his own story and his own characters. But I know this community, soooooo.... continue pointlessly speculating!I won a thread. Am I pathetic to list that in my signture? Yes. Of course I am.
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2011-07-27, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
It seems your definition of 'lawful' got mixed up with the standard definition of 'rigid' or 'arrogant'. Her chief character trait was an inability to admit that she could be mistaken.
Durkon is quite probably, or at least as it seems clear to me, more lawful than good. What of it? This is in no way inferior to being more goody.Last edited by Icedaemon; 2011-07-27 at 05:05 PM.
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2011-07-27, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
Really? Then why did she admit that Roy wasn't actually evil, admit that she should actually have to provide lodging for the order, agree that the Order wasn't actually trying to escape from their cells, and accepted Shojo's decree that the Order wasn't evil-doers?
Miko had a LOT of things wrong with her, but refusal to admit she could be mistaken was certainly not one of them.Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
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2011-07-27, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
But... she did think the Order was evil. She eventually decided Shojo had to be evil, too. Even the gods taking away her paladinhood didn't convince her otherwise.
The other things are small, and it's much easier to admit you were wrong on the little things, but she still thought she was infallible. She told the Order after the lodging ordeal that she had been right and if only they had listened to her everything would be okay, and she believed they weren't escaping because she trusted Durkon. If she refused to believe him, she would have to be wrong in that way.
If that's not enough, Soon even said she didn't acknowledge she could be wrong.
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2011-07-27, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
Your definition of "good" is "Paladin," and your definition of "evil" is "chaotic"
Good actually means actively seeking the betterment of other people as a worth goal unto itself. Evil means actively seeking your own personal desires with total disregard for the ramifications of your actions on others at best, or actively seeking to inflict pain and suffering on others at worst. A neutral person is capable of either good or evil acts, and it's a matter of scale; they might do SOME good things for free while being unwilling to do something truly heroic unless there's something in it for them, and they might do SOME evil things but balk at doing something truly horrific.
As usual, there are shades of gray. You can't simply say "If character X does Y, that definitely means he or she is Z alignment."Last edited by Squirrel_Token; 2011-07-27 at 08:31 PM.
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2011-07-27, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
Yes it did. We have no reason to think she continued to think of the Order (except Belkar) as evil after she was put in jail, and her final moments are conspicously absent of mentions or 'warnings' about them.
The other things are small, and it's much easier to admit you were wrong on the little things, but she still thought she was infallible. She told the Order after the lodging ordeal that she had been right and if only they had listened to her everything would be okay, and she believed they weren't escaping because she trusted Durkon. If she refused to believe him, she would have to be wrong in that way.
If that's not enough, Soon even said she didn't acknowledge she could be wrong.Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
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2011-07-27, 08:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
A lot of this is character interpretation where you could find support for many possibilities, so we shouldn't argue too much over that. I do think this specific event is a pretty big one. Really, if losing your paladinhood isn't enough to convince you that you're wrong, you have to be pretty stubborn. She seems to think the Order is bad here, even if their alignments aren't technically "evil".
But, again, this is largely how we interpret what we're given. I interpret Miko as believing that her insights are equal to the will of the gods, and so she cannot be wrong. You see her differently. That's fine.
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2011-07-27, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Durkon Good?
You seem very concerned in talking about how I view the character, when we aren't talking about that... at all. My hatred of the *censored* really has nothing to do with the conversation, I just feel we should be objective about our claims, and we can't claim she is inflexible and never changes her mind because she didn't change her mind one time.
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