Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

[kyoryu]

For instance considering how much investment and how it sounds grabbing all the two weapon fighting feats should be great but in the end it isn't due to things that are not going to be obvious.

This is actually a good example.

"I want to be a fighter that does a lot of damage! Getting rid of a shield in favor of a weapons seems like that would be the way to do it! Oh, look how many feats this costs to do effectively - surely in exchange for this level of specialization I'll be a whirling blender of death!"

Except it doesn't work that way. The obvious, logical thing to do is actually incredibly ineffective.

[RazorChain]

Again, it depends of which editions you're talking about. 0e and 1e, and B/X, are certainly not four-color supers. I can't speak to 2e or 3e -- BECMI certainly turns into that in the higher levels/Immortal level set, or, at least, it can.

I don't have any experience with 4e (I've at least *played* 2e and 3.x before), but from what I hear it is perhaps the most internally consistent version across the levels.

No but the power inflation distorts the game so much and I almost never experience that in other games, and I'm one of those who thinks it stupid that suddenly all the bad guys are now scaling with your level. I haven't any experience past 3rd edition so can't speak for those

[2D8HP]

Since the majority of us don't have enough experience with all the different "editions" of D&D (much more than five!), I wish there was some "which D&D is right for you" quiz similar to the pop-psychology quizzes in "men's" and "women's" magazines.

[Cluedrew]

To 2D8HP: Do we want to make a thread for that?

I'm sure we could. Pick out the strong & weak points of each edition, convert the comparisons into questions and then have an answer key which converts you answer into an approximate score for each system.

[Jay R]

Since the majority of us don't have enough experience with all the different "editions" of D&D (much more than five!), I wish there was some "which D&D is right for you" quiz similar to the pop-psychology quizzes in "men's" and "women's" magazines.

More often than not, the answer is, "The first version you played".

I suspect that's mostly because that version shapes your expectations, but also partly because each version is aimed at the current potential gamers at that time.

[2D8HP]

To 2D8HP: Do we want to make a thread for that?

I'm sure we could. Pick out the strong & weak points of each edition, convert the comparisons into questions and then have an answer key which converts you answer into an approximate score for each system.

That sounds pretty good, but wouldn't we have to already have impressions of each version of D&D already (not to mention other games)?

I myself have really only experienced play with '77 Basic, 0e with supplements, 1e AD&D, "5e" D&D, read a lot of 3e (no real table time past character creation though), and have had only brief glances at '81 B/X, RC, 2e AD&D, 3.5 and 4e, and I expect that most of us have different but still partial lists.

But... if anyone else thinks it's a good idea, yeah let's do that thread!

More often than not, the answer is, "The first version you played.....

So.. that's why when I DM I can only remember 48 pages of rules (1977 "Basic"), but when I'm a player I expect the DM to remember material scattered over several books (the "LBB's", plus Greyhawk, plus Blackmoor, plus the Arduin Grimoires, etc...).

That.... actually kind of makes sense, but I still believe the type of adventure (explore and loot the Dungeon vs. defeat the BBEG) matters more than whether you roll percentile dice or a D20 to see if your Thief successfully picks a lock, but yeah a certain flavor is craved even if the chemical ingredients aren't exactly the same.

[Cluedrew]

To 2D8HP: Well I have "impressions" on most of the big systems, actual experience with quite a few less. Hopefully we can get enough support in from other people to fill it in though. We could branch out to other systems... but although I think this is worth trying I don't know if it will work so I'm not sure if "the role-playing game that is right for you" is a good idea. If nothing else, limiting it to editions of D&D will remove the question of which systems to include.

We would probably need more than just two people to put that together. You need* multiple people's opinions to make that come together.

* Rather, I think you should have.

[kyoryu]

More often than not, the answer is, "The first version you played".

I suspect that's mostly because that version shapes your expectations, but also partly because each version is aimed at the current potential gamers at that time.

Add in a measure of "and if you didn't like the current version at the time that you started playing, you wouldn't have continued" and I think you've got the recipe down.

[Yora]

Well, I started with 3rd edition and stuck with it for 10 years because I didn't know any better. Now I think it's just awful and the opposite of what I always wanted out of RPGs.

[2D8HP]

Well, I started with 3rd edition and stuck with it for 10 years because I didn't know any better. Now I think it's just awful and the opposite of what I always wanted out of RPGs.

Well minus some reading time that's 10 years more experience than me so please contribute your wisdom to the:

Making a quiz! Which D&D is right for you? thread.

Thanks!

[RazorChain]

Well, I started with 3rd edition and stuck with it for 10 years because I didn't know any better. Now I think it's just awful and the opposite of what I always wanted out of RPGs.

Well I think most people get introduced to RPG through DnD because it's the most popular system....it's like the VHS of roleplaying systems, you have betamax out there but it it lost the advertisement campaign. I got lucky as a teenager and experienced dozen or so different system only couple of years after I started paying.

[2D8HP]

Well I think most people get introduced to RPG through DnD because it's the most popular system....it's like the VHS of roleplaying systems, you have betamax out there but it it lost the advertisement campaign.

Betamax had better picture and especially sound quality, but IIRC correctly you could record for longer with VHS.

I got lucky as a teenager and experienced dozen or so different system only couple of years after I started playing.

Me too, but I never had as much fun as when I played D&D.
My players on the other hand definitely prefered it when I GM'd other games.
I can think of some games that I may enjoy playing more that I regret that I will likely never get to try, but since D&D is most folks "second favorite RPG", and is usually the default now, and since I can remember how in the early 1990's the only open tables were for non Swords and Sorcery setting RPG's that I really disliked I'm OK with that.

[RazorChain]

Betamax had better picture and especially sound quality, but IIRC correctly you could record for longer with VHS.
Me too, but I never had as much fun as when I played D&D.
My players on the other hand definitely prefered it when I GM'd other games.
I can think of some games that I may enjoy playing more that I regret that I will likely never get to try, but since D&D is most folks "second favorite RPG", and is usually the default now, and since I can remember how in the early 1990's the only open tables were for non Swords and Sorcery setting RPG's that I really disliked I'm OK with that.

Well I never managed to try Stormbringer...but wasnt much of an Elric fan anyways. But in the 90's I kept on playing DnD and found there was no shortage of DnD players, what crashed the RPG community where I come from was Magic the Gathering.....boy, do I despise that game....and WotC for making it.

[2D8HP]

Well I never managed to try Stormbringer...but wasnt much of an Elric fan anyways.

I think MM's "Corum", and "Von Bek" books (especially The Knight of Swords, and The War Hound and the World's Pain) are much better reads.

But in the 90's I kept on playing DnD and found there was no shortage of DnD players.

I envy you that. In my area the popular games became "Cyberpunk" and especially "Vampire" which had settings that were so bleak too close to real life for me to see much joy of "role-playing" in, so I left the hobby.

what crashed the RPG community where I come from was Magic the Gathering.....boy, do I despise that game....and WotC for making it

Yeah I have mixed feelings about WotC, they killed "my" D&D, but since TSR was going out of business there may not have been any D&D still in print.
It's an interesting counter-factual, what would RPG's be like now without "D20" and the "open game license"?
EDIT:
Wow! I just realized that I didn't mention Stormbringer on this thread, but I instead last mentioned it at the RPGs that don't use Vancian Magic? thread

Stormbringer!

I'm being read!

[Morty]

Well, I started with 3rd edition and stuck with it for 10 years because I didn't know any better. Now I think it's just awful and the opposite of what I always wanted out of RPGs.

Same here, although thankfully it didn't take me so long to realize it's bad. Older editions are bad in their own way, but I'm not sure if I'd rather play them rather than 3e - I used to have some fondness for them, before realizing it's nostalgia for Baldur's Gate. They don't have some of the traps 3e brought, but they're even more pointlessly restrictive in a lot of places. So I guess they're both equally low on my list. 4e is a lot better, but has its own issues, and 5e is more of the same by design.

[MeeposFire]

Same here, although thankfully it didn't take me so long to realize it's bad. Older editions are bad in their own way, but I'm not sure if I'd rather play them rather than 3e - I used to have some fondness for them, before realizing it's nostalgia for Baldur's Gate. They don't have some of the traps 3e brought, but they're even more pointlessly restrictive in a lot of places. So I guess they're both equally low on my list. 4e is a lot better, but has its own issues, and 5e is more of the same by design.

My wife does not like some of the restrictions but many are not hard to change. For example in my games in AD&D I do not use racial level limits or class restrictions. I just do not find them needed.

[kyoryu]

Betamax had better picture and especially sound quality, but IIRC correctly you could record for longer with VHS.

You could get porn on VHS.

[Grac]

Betamax had better picture and especially sound quality, but IIRC correctly you could record for longer with VHS.

The betamax machine was larger and like 5 pounds heavier, which is important when dealing with shipping and shelf space, and was already more expensive to make, before those costs were factored in. The machines and tapes were more expensive for consumers, and the tapes were an hour long, so in addition to the greater cost for a 2hr movie, you had to switch tapes half way through.

So betamax was first and technically the best, but VHS was 'good enough'.

I think this shows why D&D is still at the top, even if that has to be split among various edition and clones: dnd is 'good enough'.

[CharonsHelper]

So betamax was first and technically the best, but VHS was 'good enough'.

Betamax had the best video quality. But that's only one aspect of what made a tape 'best'. VHS had tape length and was cheaper.

I think this shows why D&D is still at the top, even if that has to be split among various edition and clones: dnd is 'good enough'.

I've heard before that D&D is everyone's 2nd favorite RPG, which is a good ballpark. So, even if it's no one's favorite RPG, it's what everyone in the group can agree to play consistently. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather play my 2nd favorite RPG than sit alone in a room with my favorite one. :P

[barna10]

I've heard before that D&D is everyone's 2nd favorite RPG, which is a good ballpark. So, even if it's no one's favorite RPG, it's what everyone in the group can agree to play consistently. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather play my 2nd favorite RPG than sit alone in a room with my favorite one. :P

For me it's a matter of perspective. I've been playing RPGs since 1986. My first game was Basic D&D. I liked it but quickly moved on to AD&D (1st then 2nd edition) and Classic Marvel. I was really dissatisfied with 2nd and swore off D&D as a whole moving on to Rifts and Shadowrun. For years I didn't touch a TSR product until 3rd edition. Then I loved 3rd edition and started to get a bad taste again when 3.5 came out, and then swore it off again once 4th edition came around.

It wasn't until about 4 years ago when I took a fresh look at AD&D (1st edition) and Basic D&D that discovered the beauty of the those systems that my less-mature self completely missed. Now I'm mad that I wasted so much time NOT playing either of those systems. The ONLY systems I'll play now are AD&D (maybe 2nd...still on the fence), Classic D&D (as BECMI is being called these days), and the Classic Marvel RPG.

I took a look at 5th and it's just too crunchy for me. I may take time to learn 5th if I ever get a weekly group going again.

[Morty]

The betamax machine was larger and like 5 pounds heavier, which is important when dealing with shipping and shelf space, and was already more expensive to make, before those costs were factored in. The machines and tapes were more expensive for consumers, and the tapes were an hour long, so in addition to the greater cost for a 2hr movie, you had to switch tapes half way through.

So betamax was first and technically the best, but VHS was 'good enough'.

I think this shows why D&D is still at the top, even if that has to be split among various edition and clones: dnd is 'good enough'.

That's a decent way of putting it. D&D holds on because it's easiest to get into - since so many people know it - and because it's not quite bad enough for people to give up on it.

[barna10]

That's a decent way of putting it. D&D holds on because it's easiest to get into - since so many people know it - and because it's not quite bad enough for people to give up on it.

It's mainly that D&D is "the" source. Other Fantasy systems are derivatives. Some people like the authentic feel of D&D, others like the idea of diverging from the norm.

I like D&D because of the details (names of things, creatures, etc.). Everything else feels like a watered-down attempt at a copy or the differences are forced just so the systems can claim to be different.

[Knaight]

It's mainly that D&D is "the" source. Other Fantasy systems are derivatives. Some people like the authentic feel of D&D, others like the idea of diverging from the norm.

I like D&D because of the details (names of things, creatures, etc.). Everything else feels like a watered-down attempt at a copy or the differences are forced just so the systems can claim to be different.

This applies to some fantasy systems - there are definite knockoffs, and there are a lot of them (though most don't end up getting that much attention). There are others where this doesn't fit at all though, and it's clear that they were designed from the ground up for something fundamentally different. Shadowrun and Burning Wheel are fantasy, neither of them particularly resembles D&D at all, and the differences are dramatic as they come from fundamentally different central designs and not just some cosmetic tweaks to basically the same game (e.g. Pathfinder, 13th Age).

[Grac]

Betamax had the best video quality. But that's only one aspect of what made a tape 'best'. VHS had tape length and was cheaper.



I've heard before that D&D is everyone's 2nd favorite RPG, which is a good ballpark. So, even if it's no one's favorite RPG, it's what everyone in the group can agree to play consistently. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather play my 2nd favorite RPG than sit alone in a room with my favorite one. :P

Yes, I said that betamax was cheaper and had longer tapes. Idk why you feel the need to bring that up?

And my favourite rpg is an edition of dnd. My second favourite rpg is another edition of dnd. That's irrelevant. Idk why you feel the need to snark like that?

It's mainly that D&D is "the" source. Other Fantasy systems are derivatives. Some people like the authentic feel of D&D, others like the idea of diverging from the norm.

I like D&D because of the details (names of things, creatures, etc.). Everything else feels like a watered-down attempt at a copy or the differences are forced just so the systems can claim to be different.

This doesn't explain things like gurps and vampire which are considerably different to dnd, overlapping only in the players/DM and rolling dice to add a random element to deciding situations.

[Talakeal]

Betamax had the best video quality. But that's only one aspect of what made a tape 'best'. VHS had tape length and was cheaper.



I've heard before that D&D is everyone's 2nd favorite RPG, which is a good ballpark. So, even if it's no one's favorite RPG, it's what everyone in the group can agree to play consistently. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather play my 2nd favorite RPG than sit alone in a room with my favorite one. :P

How dare you suggest that bad gaming is better than no gaming!

[CharonsHelper]

How dare you suggest that bad gaming is better than no gaming!

It's more that while great gaming is best, good gaming is better than no gaming. (Besides - I think that the system you play is secondary to enjoyment than the group who you play with. I've enjoyed play in systems whose mechanics are a hot mess because it was fun to hang out with friends and play a game together.)

And yes - I realize that you were being sarcastic.

[Knaight]

It's more that while great gaming is best, good gaming is better than no gaming. (Besides - I think that the system you play is secondary to enjoyment than the group who you play with. I've enjoyed play in systems whose mechanics are a hot mess because it was fun to hang out with friends and play a game together.)

It's secondary, but there's a definite impact - I've had games with the same group be much more or less fun because of varying system quality, and that's without even delving into the deep end of garbage.

[LibraryOgre]

Moreso than anything else, D&D is the archetype. I find, when explaining gaming to people, that I can often shorthand it to "Like Dungeons and Dragons", and they understand it, where the more technical definitions tend to not be understood.

[kyoryu]

It's secondary, but there's a definite impact - I've had games with the same group be much more or less fun because of varying system quality, and that's without even delving into the deep end of garbage.

System matters, but it's not the only thing that matters.

A good craftsman can work with any tools, but using the wrong tool for the job at hand will give less desirable results.

[barna10]

System matters, but it's not the only thing that matters.

A good craftsman can work with any tools, but using the wrong tool for the job at hand will give less desirable results.

Agreed.

There are many parts that must come together to have a good "game", system is one of those. Yes, you can still have a good game with the incorrect system, or with less-than-desirable players, or with a sub-par GM, etc. ; but add in two or more of these and the fun quotient drops greatly.

And my time is too valuable to play systems I do not like or to play with people I do not want to play with, but I will deal with a sub-par GM just so I don't have to GM for once!