Is George Lucas really that bad?

[The Glyphstone]

I think it's canon that one needs to be able to use the Force to properly have everything in place to make the lightsaber work. Kyber crystals can still be used to harness energy, but a lightsaber specifically does require Force ability, IIRC. So there still is a "only certain people can make them," but it's still an inexhaustible supply of potential crafters.


Well, to be fair, same with the Rings of Power. Sauron made enough for the kings, and could have made more if he hadn't been defeated.

Now, of course, I expect to sit back and wait to be schooled on LotR lore.

Really? I had always honestly imagined the Rings of Power were forged as a single set, or at least in rapid succession.

(also, irony of ironies, I learned while looking to see if that was true that the Rings themselves were forged by Elves under Sauron's guidance, the only one he forged personally was the One Ring. Schooled indeed?)

[Peelee]

Really? I had always honestly imagined the Rings of Power were forged as a single set, or at least in rapid succession.

(also, irony of ironies, I learned while looking to see if that was true that the Rings themselves were forged by Elves under Sauron's guidance, the only one he forged personally was the One Ring. Schooled indeed?)

Huh. I wonder why the Dwarves weren't involved, then. I know elves are all artisty, but the dwarves are supposed to be master craftsmen, right? Or is that just generic fantasy stuff and not really Tolkien stuff?

[The Glyphstone]

Huh. I wonder why the Dwarves weren't involved, then. I know elves are all artisty, but the dwarves are supposed to be master craftsmen, right? Or is that just generic fantasy stuff and not really Tolkien stuff?

Beats me.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Rings_of_Power

[Peelee]

Beats me.

That sounds an awful lot like something someone in league with Sauron would say...

[Keltest]

Huh. I wonder why the Dwarves weren't involved, then. I know elves are all artisty, but the dwarves are supposed to be master craftsmen, right? Or is that just generic fantasy stuff and not really Tolkien stuff?

The Elves were the ones who figured out Ringmaking to begin with. The Rings of Power weren't Sauron's idea, exactly, but he helped the elves learn, and learned from them in turn, so that he could take advantage of it. With the exception of the One Ring, Sauron didn't actually make any of the Rings directly himself, though he did assist in the creation of the Nine and the Seven. The main credit goes to Celebrimbor for all but the One.

[factotum]

I think it comes down to Dwarves being master craftsmen, but for mundane items. You want a sword that will chop Orcs all day and not dull its edge, you go to a Dwarf. You want one that will do the same thing, but also glow when the enemy is nearby so you can't be surprised, you need an Elf, because they have access to the old magic and Dwarves don't.

[Keltest]

I think it comes down to Dwarves being master craftsmen, but for mundane items. You want a sword that will chop Orcs all day and not dull its edge, you go to a Dwarf. You want one that will do the same thing, but also glow when the enemy is nearby so you can't be surprised, you need an Elf, because they have access to the old magic and Dwarves don't.

From my understanding, it was because the Rings were an elven project trying to see what they could do, and Sauron wanted to keep it a bit of a secret. It wasn't specifically that it wouldn't benefit from dwarven assistance, just that the elves didn't want it.

[Peelee]

The Elves were the ones who figured out Ringmaking to begin with. The Rings of Power weren't Sauron's idea, exactly, but he helped the elves learn, and learned from them in turn, so that he could take advantage of it. With the exception of the One Ring, Sauron didn't actually make any of the Rings directly himself, though he did assist in the creation of the Nine and the Seven. The main credit goes to Celebrimbor for all but the One.

Thanks!

Also, ahhh, the playground. Where all threads become Star Wars threads, except Star Wars threads; those become Lord of the Rings threads.

[The Glyphstone]

Thanks!

Also, ahhh, the playground. Where all threads become Star Wars threads, except Star Wars threads; those become Lord of the Rings threads.

You're the one who brought up LOTR to begin with.

[Peelee]

You're the one who brought up LOTR to begin with.

To be fair, I bring up Star Wars in other threads.

[The Glyphstone]

It's all that time you spend on Wookiepeedia.

[Peelee]

It's all that time you spend on Wookiepeedia.

Jokes on you, I'm dyslexic!

[Fyraltari]

Ok, I see the disconnect. No, that is not my problem with your analogy. My problem is that literally every Jedi makes a lightsaber, which all have identical abilities. No setting has "your magic weapon is easily replicated by members of our order, and have been for millennia, and also are largely identical." Because then it's not a magic weapon, it's just a proprietary weapon with personal touches. And comparing that to Excalibur is just ludicrous. Or any magic weapon. Give me one example of a magic weapon that is constantly and commonly replicated by its users, with the exact same functionality across the board.

Harry Potter's wands. Please don't tell me those aren't magic.
Hell, any potion or flying broomstick.
Prettymuch any magical artefacts from D&D?

Anyway, that's more like the Rings of Power. Only one could craft them, and when that one stops, no more are made. So there was still a set limit, rather than continually being churned out.

I think that is less unable and more unwilling. Celebrimbor put some ofthe native power of the whole Elvish people on those things they probably don't want to play with that.

Also lesser magic items are quite common in Arda (way less in the Third Age what with the magic going away and all) that is why Gandalf didn't immediately freak out upon learning that Bilbo found a ring of invisibility, he figured it was just one the regular one the Elves used to make rather than the Mastr-Ring lying low.
There's also an Unfinished Tale were a Druadan crafts a statue that can move on its own (more or less, it's unclear how autonomous it is) and this is treated as an example of what the Druadan can generally do.

But those are just the lesser stuff, the Great Rings of Power were artifacts designed to alter the flow of time by one of the servants of the God of Smithing and the heir of his apprentice's apprentice. I guess the required skillset is pretty rare.

Yes, unlike how in Starwars. If you have the instructions on how to make a lightsaber. Quite literally anyone can. Maybe you couldn't make one as well, but it's still an entirely mechanical device. You just need the parts. Even though they added the whole stuff with the kyber crystals. You can still use the crystals if you're not a force user. otherwise the death star never would have worked.

The Death Star and the lightsaers function quite differently though. And in Catlyst we see that not only it was a nightmare figuring out just how to make them work but the way they do so is akin to torturing them.

Well, to be fair, same with the Rings of Power. Sauron made enough for the kings, and could have made more if he hadn't been defeated.

Now, of course, I expect to sit back and wait to be schooled on LotR lore.

Why would he? He tricked Celembrimbor so he could steal the Elves' power for himself. To make another Ring would not grant him anything he doesn't posses, and after his sort of death in Nùmenor I'm not sure he could whithout killng himself.

Huh. I wonder why the Dwarves weren't involved, then. I know elves are all artisty, but the dwarves are supposed to be master craftsmen, right? Or is that just generic fantasy stuff and not really Tolkien stuff?

Well Sauron wasn't trying to trick those.
He tricked Celebrimbor by playing on two things:
1) His desire to prove himself the equal of granpa Fëanor (the one who made the Silmarils) and to clear his family's reputation.
2) The Elves utter refusal of the idea that hings should change.

"Hey kid, what if I helped you equal your grandfather by making the Elves in general a service by creating stuff that can make it so time would not affect certain places? All you have to do his pour your entire species' magic in it and show me your greatest secrets? What? No you don't need to ask Galadriel's, Gil-Galad's, Celeborn's, Elrond's or Cirdan's advice. Wy would you?"

The Dwarves are on general better Craftsmen but the Greatest of the Noldor learnt from Aulë. Ain't no one gonna top that.

[Devonix]

Fyraltari

To Paraphrase Syndrome. When everything is magic, Nothing is. In Harry Potter magic is mundane. Something being " Magic " More has to do with it's meaning in the story, because pretty much all scifi tech is magic if you look at it in the way you're discussing. Startrek might as well be a show about wizards.

[Lethologica]

Fyraltari

To Paraphrase Syndrome. When everything is magic, Nothing is. In Harry Potter magic is mundane. Something being " Magic " More has to do with it's meaning in the story, because pretty much all scifi tech is magic if you look at it in the way you're discussing. Startrek might as well be a show about wizards.

With that said, Harry Potter is actually a very strong analogy for the argument Fyraltari is making. Despite magic being everywhere and everyone having wands, we still have all that 'the wand chooses the wizard' jazz, which is the same as the stuff about kyber crystals.

The problem with Fyraltari's argument has been that he's been trying to argue that the light sabers are equivalent to the Elder Wand (with the Excalibur analogy), which of course doesn't make sense.

And yes, the result of all this is to make Star Wars even more space fantasy than it already was.

[Devonix]

With that said, Harry Potter is actually a very strong analogy for the argument Fyraltari is making. Despite magic being everywhere and everyone having wands, we still have all that 'the wand chooses the wizard' jazz, which is the same as the stuff about kyber crystals.

The problem with Fyraltari's argument has been that he's been trying to argue that the light sabers are equivalent to the Elder Wand (with the Excalibur analogy), which of course doesn't make sense.

And yes, the result of all this is to make Star Wars even more space fantasy than it already was.

It was always space fantasy, but more soft fantasy than hard. They keep trying to define the rules more which is a problem I have.

[Fyraltari]

Fyraltari

To Paraphrase Syndrome. When everything is magic, Nothing is. In Harry Potter magic is mundane. Something being " Magic " More has to do with it's meaning in the story, because pretty much all scifi tech is magic if you look at it in the way you're discussing. Startrek might as well be a show about wizards.

I disagree, Harry Potter draws a clear distinction between what is magic (the Wizarding World) and what is not (the Muggle World).

Sta Trek still tries to give its phlebotinum an air of science and empirism.

Star Wars also draws a distinction between what is magic (basically anything involving the Force, kybers included) and what is not (the whole bloody rest) and makes it pretty clear that the force is not concerned with scientific, materialist logic but with mystic, spiritual logic ("Your eyes can deceive you", "Judge me by my size, do you? [...] You must unlearn what you have learned" etc).

EDIT:

With that said, Harry Potter is actually a very strong analogy for the argument Fyraltari is making. Despite magic being everywhere and everyone having wands, we still have all that 'the wand chooses the wizard' jazz, which is the same as the stuff about kyber crystals.

The problem with Fyraltari's argument has been that he's been trying to argue that the light sabers are equivalent to the Elder Wand (with the Excalibur analogy), which of course doesn't make sense.

And yes, the result of all this is to make Star Wars even more space fantasy than it already was.

Excalibur is not equivlent to the Elder Wand, it's just a magic sword among others, it's better than a regular sword but that's about it.

Then again, the Elder Wand is overrated too, so *shrugs*.

It was always space fantasy, but more soft fantasy than hard. They keep trying to define the rules more which is a problem I have.

There's your problem, right there. The force does not have rules. Because it's both a magic and a god, none of those are very strong on following a strict set of rules.

[Devonix]

Fyraltari Magic that is part of the every day life Is mundane. They eat. sleep, breathe, and deficate magic.

Thematically Magic is not " magic " Though there is magic in the setting that is. And the elder wand IS the Excalibur equivalent in Harry Potter It's a something that legends sprout up about and sets it above everything else in the setting.

And my problem is that the force didn't have rules, but writers later on keep trying to cram rules onto it.

[Fyraltari]

Fyraltari Magic that is part of the every day life Is mundane. They eat. sleep, breathe, and deficate magic.

So? Doesn't make it less magic, epecially when mixed with religion as with Star Wars.

Thematically Magic is not " magic " Though there is magic in the setting that is.

I don't understand you there.

And the elder wand IS the Excalibur equivalent in Harry Potter It's a something that legends sprout up about and sets it above everything else in the setting.

Look, forget Excalibur, I only brought it up as a shorthand for magic sword.

And my problem is that the force didn't have rules, but writers later on keep trying to cram rules onto it.

Not sure what you are referring to. The midi-chlorians?

[Lethologica]

It was always space fantasy, but more soft fantasy than hard. They keep trying to define the rules more which is a problem I have.

This is at best a lateral move with respect to how defined the rules are. Before it was natural and artificial crystals, now it's some kind of attunement to the wielder. If anything, the new rules are more vague, not more defined. What changed is that the explanation was made more fantastic, so the rules were as well.

It's not that rules were imposed to regulate what the Force can do. Rather, the Force now is doing more, and that additional thing the Force does has been characterized in an honestly pretty minimal way. Even what definition there is mostly pertains to how the kyber crystals draw on the Force, rather than the Force itself, as far as I can tell.

[Rockphed]

Huh. I wonder why the Dwarves weren't involved, then. I know elves are all artisty, but the dwarves are supposed to be master craftsmen, right? Or is that just generic fantasy stuff and not really Tolkien stuff?

Dwarves are natural craftsmen who can work with materials that no other creature can (e.g. forming mithril out of the raw rocks of Moria), but Elves live forever and are capable of learning. Thus an elf who has lived a couple millenia and has practiced a single craft that whole time might be able to exceed that abilities of an average dwarf, even in a dwarven racial specialty.

[Peelee]

Look, forget Excalibur, I only brought it up as a shorthand for magic sword.

Excalibur has always just been a weapon that cuts very well, nothing more.

Imean, at the very least, you can see why your stance can be confusing, right?

[Devonix]

Dwarves are natural craftsmen who can work with materials that no other creature can (e.g. forming mithril out of the raw rocks of Moria), but Elves live forever and are capable of learning. Thus an elf who has lived a couple millenia and has practiced a single craft that whole time might be able to exceed that abilities of an average dwarf, even in a dwarven racial specialty.

The Dwarves also taught the elves nearly everything they know about crafting.

[Fyraltari]

Imean, at the very least, you can see why your stance can be confusing, right?

Yes.
My stance is that the lightsabers can be supernatural in nature without it meaning there can't be just a handful of them nor they all should be unique nor contradicting anything previously established about them. It just fits with the whole space fairy tale original story and the space fantasy setting.

The Dwarves also taught the elves nearly everything they know about crafting.

Where did you get that? The Noldori learnt from the Valar and Maiar themselves.
It's simple really: Dwarves mine gemstones, Elves used to make gemstones.

[Devonix]

Yes.
My stance is that the lightsabers can be supernatural in nature without it meaning there can't be just a handful of them nor they all should be unique nor contradicting anything previously established about them. It just fits with the whole space fairy tale original story and the space fantasy setting.

Where did you get that? The Noldori learnt from the Valar and Maiar themselves.
It's simple really: Dwarves mine gemstones, Elves used to make gemstones.

Yes but the dwarves taught them how to build homes and basically how to survive once they got to middle earth and had to do stuff for a living, not just mooch off the valar.

[Fyraltari]

Yes but the dwarves taught them how to build homes and basically how to survive once they got to middle earth and had to do stuff for a living, not just mooch off the valar.

Again do you have a source for this? The Noldor built their own stuff in Valinor and Middle-Earth without any help. In the Silmarillion they even say the built Alqualonde for the Sea Elves as well.

The Elves never "mooched off" the Valar" that was the wholepoint of the Noldor Rebellion.

The closest thing to your claim I can remember is Finrod hiring Dwarves to dig the caves of Nargothrond but that's really it, and even then it is said that Nargothrond is much like a copy of Tingol's palace Menegroth which built before Dawerves and Elves meet.

[factotum]

Yeah, I'm with Fyraltari here. The Noldor in particular were master craftsmen--they built the swan boats of the Teleri, and the Valar themselves wanted to get the Silmarils after the destruction of the Two Trees because they were the only source of that light anywhere in the world. Feanor, who crafted said Silmarils, was said to be the greatest craftsman of all time.

[Cikomyr]

But just because they are "the best craftsmen" doesnt mean they are the most efficient. Where it takes an elf 50 years to make a +2049573 sword of power, dwarves can outfit the entire Middle Earth with weapon and armors, as long as they get paid.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, I'm with Fyraltari here. The Noldor in particular were master craftsmen--they built the swan boats of the Teleri, and the Valar themselves wanted to get the Silmarils after the destruction of the Two Trees because they were the only source of that light anywhere in the world. Feanor, who crafted said Silmarils, was said to be the greatest craftsman of all time.

The Teleri made their own ships, that's why the Noldor wanted them: they couldn't make their own.

But yeah, Fëanor was pretty much a league of his own. That said I'm pretty sure Telchar (the best smith of Durin's folk, who made Narsil) could give any other Elvish smith a run for their money.

[Lethologica]

But just because they are "the best craftsmen" doesnt mean they are the most efficient. Where it takes an elf 50 years to make a +2049573 sword of power, dwarves can outfit the entire Middle Earth with weapon and armors, as long as they get paid.

Can we, like, get a source for this claim?