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2013-04-30, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Two things. First, everytime we 'see' MitD outside of his umbrellla or box he is in an area of magical darkness. Many times this happens, there is a clear edge to the darkness where we see a gradient from light to dark. That means there is a hard edge to the effect. Redcloaks comments on the futility of Darkvision that can't pierce magical darkness suggests that this fixed darkness is magical, obviously.
Second: Is it that much of a stretch that the umbrella is the Hello Kitty Umbrella of Darkness and projects Darkness underneath its parasol? Or the Box of Darkness that keeps its interior shrouded in darkness?Awesome Avvy by Sizlord!
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2013-04-30, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Could you link said times? I honestly don't remember them, and if true, then it'd certainly be something to take into account. Until I see them though, I can't comment on what effect it has on the theory.
Too much of a stretch? Probably not. But doing so would mean custom items that don't exist in DnD normally, ie items of Rich's creation, which isn't something that Rich does all that often in the first place, and starts to get into the same territory templates do. Perhaps MitD is <insert low strength monster here> with a Ring of Smash Paladins Through Walls?5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2013-04-30, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
The difference would be in the lampshading of said item. The umbrella being "RedCloak's EvilKitty Umbrella of Small Radius Magical Darkness" is fine as a special item because it was introduced precisely for that purpose. The ring, were it to exist, has not been mentioned at any point. Same as the talking, really.
GWInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2013-04-30, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
I can only link his first appearance (along with all his appearances prior to the umbrella), as I am too lazy to figure out which selects strips have him outside his box and umbrella. As for custom items, I'd chock it up to "Necessary for the mystery" Is it imopossible for MitD to have some kind of Darkness effect? Heck no! Is it plausible? Maybe. My point is the argument of [Something] of Darkness to preserve the mystery would be a simple narrative fix to keeping him concealed and not restricted to his dark corner of the room. It would allow freedom of movement of the character without having to reveal it or release clues Rich doesn't want to release. A weak argument? Maybe. But its my argument.
Awesome Avvy by Sizlord!
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2013-04-30, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
No, it's a solid argument, which is why it's the default position for the thread. But so was, at one point, "RC can't lift the box".
Anyway, the strips were Team Evil is running around Xykon's old tower (full of good-aligned creatures) are the ones were MitD is out of the box, without the umbrella, and still is in darkness, even though he is moving around.
GWInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2013-04-30, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-04-30, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2013-04-30, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Alright, we have a piece of evidence to suggest the darkness is possibly a result of MitD and not exclusively outside sources.
Piercing or slashing. Daggers deal Piercing OR Slashing, determined when the user makes the attack. So it all depends on what Belkar decided. I'm inclined to think he chose Piercing, as his preferred method seems to be stabbing.Awesome Avvy by Sizlord!
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2013-04-30, 09:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
My theory is that he needs to be in shadowy illumination for the magical darkness to kick in, so as long as he stayed in the darker parts of the room, he was fine.
I'd point out that MitD walking around without the umbrella is actually proof against the "RedCloak's EvilKitty Umbrella of Small Radius Magical Darkness" theory. If MitD needed the umbrella to stay cloaked, then why wouldn't he have been visible in the early scenes, or in the tower? Xykon could have had a spell cast on him, but that would be yet another custom spell, and one that's completely not referenced to, unlike the umbrella which we at least see the object itself, it not any explanation of it's properties or even a statement that it's magical. More reasonable would be to assume that MitD is
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say that "RedCloak's EvilKitty Umbrella of Small Radius Magical Darkness" is impossible either, but let's look at the assumptions you need to make for each case:
1) The Umbrella
For the "RedCloak's EvilKitty Umbrella of Small Radius Magical Darkness" (RCEKUoSRMD) theory we must assume that Rich created a custom magical item with unique properties for the express purpose of hiding MitD without having a larger radius.
For my theory we need only assume that it's a normal pink umbrella.
2) Walking around without the umbrella in the tower
For the RCEKUoSRMD theory, we need to assume that either a custom spell was created, or that MitD was walking around in a spot of complete darkness.
For my theory we only need assume that MitD happened to be walking around in a spot of shadowy illumination, which his ability then turned into magical darkness. Alternately, the entire tower could be in shadowy illumination (it is abandoned after all), and that the deeper darkness around MitD was generated by his ability.
Neither of these assumptions is impossible, but my theory certainly seems to require less assumptions to be made, so I'd propose that it is more reasonable as the base assumption, rather than the other way around.
Unfortunately, as far as I can tell none of the FBS monsters currently proposed have anything like this ability, but it is something to look out for.5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2013-04-30, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
I am not aware of any magical ability that allows a creature to amplify existing darkness vs. just producing magical darkness. Such an ability would be a nice feather in the cap of any otherwise suitable proposal, but without even a name for this hypothetical ability, I think that the default assumption should still be that the MitD does not have anything to do with the darkness surrounding him, beyond staying in it.
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2013-04-30, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Yep, that is my general feeling. "Able to generate a darkness field dispersable by regular light" is like an even rarer form of "can explain the escape with wish" or "can explain the earthquake with Earthquake SLA". Yes, ideal if it does come up, but so rare that most decent suggestions do without.
In the entire history of this thread, I believe it has come up once - a creature of the underdark of Forgotten Realms, IIRC, had a weak magical darkness that didn't work in daylight.
GWInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2013-04-30, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Also, have you ever walked around under an umbrella on a sunny day? I have, and it does not create anything like what I'd call "shadowy illumination" -- the sun is no longer beating down on you, but it's still very bright under the umbrella.
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2013-04-30, 09:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Ok, I'm willing to concede the point for now, just because we don't have any monster candidates yet who have such an ability. I'll bring it up again if/when we do, since then we'll have something more concrete to argue about. It'll still be my personal headcanon that MitD has such an ability, but that's all.
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2013-04-30, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
The way I'd look at it, the assumptions are:
1) The characters in OotS can and do create new spells and magic items and alter old ones, or
2) There is an ability of some kind which transforms mundane shadows into impenetrable magical darkness.
I think both are equally possible, but the assumption necessary for the former isn't so much an assumption as a repeatedly-demonstrated fact. The latter requires only a single sourcebook I haven't read, but the fact remains that it's an assumption. Until we have an explanation--some creature with that ability, some spell that does it, something--the existing explanation remains less of a leap.
EDIT: Once again, I have been made redundant and irrelevant by slow typing.Last edited by balladfen; 2013-04-30 at 09:51 PM.
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2013-04-30, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Time for another of my amusing/boring rant/blogs!
Long time participants of this thread know that I (and by extension, the thread) operate on very rational evidence lines. Please do not mistake this with a requirement that what your belief of MitD follows those same lines. Of course your head canon can be something not assumed by this thread! If you do strongly believe that MitD reveal will have a pay-off that requires it to be easily recognisable, or that MitD generates its own darkness, or that it's the bastard child of Tarrasque and Snarl (not facetious, we actually did have that one a long while back), I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong. Far from it!
But there has to be a divide between head canon and thread canon. While I'm all for agreeing to disagree on contentious but ultimately unimportant topics such as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or, yes, MitD's species, this thread isn't the place to reach such agreement, because the thread would subsequently die. The purpose of the thread is to accumulate MitD lore, and that cannot be done if everyone sticks to their own head canon. I try to walk as closely as possible to the happy medium between what is absolutely certain (damn little. We don't even know for a certain fact that the yellow circles are its eyes) and what is completely subjective (literary theory on reveals: shock, recognisability, surprise, etc.). Neither extreme fosters discussion, so I feel I must try to stay away from them. Yes, I probably could be better at steering away from those topics without being harsh, but I do what I can.
What I am good at is at remembering arguments, and rehashing them in ways that are clear. You don't need to accept the argument at face value, or even rely on what we call the "common" ones. That is why there are alternative interpretations (such as wish/teleport) for much of MitD characteristics. But many specialised arguments do fall under the "attached to the correct proposal" umbrella, especially those from outside D&D ("sleeping after using powers" springs to mind). This is not meant to diminish the argument, only to bow to the fact that there is a limited amount of space I can devote to alternative arguments before the first post becomes completely unusable. But rest assured that even if I haven't added it to the first post, that doesn't mean it is forgotten. I hope it is obvious to anyone that has known me for more than a few days that I don't usually forget arguments, whether I agree with them or not. Mind you, I can't tell you who first said the argument, but hopefully that is unimportant in the long run.
Yours,
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2013-04-30, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Ever since its first appearance, I've assumed that the umbrella projects darkness, and I still do. The D&D "Darkness" spell makes an object or point in space literally "radiate darkness" (kind of like anti-photons, or "darkons"), which is blocked by a lightproof covering; so if a permanent Darkness spell was placed at the top of the inside of a lightproof umbrella, you'd have darkness "shining" down on whomever held the opened umbrella.
(You can also get into interesting discussions about what happens when you make Darkness invisible, but that way lies madness.)
Note that 3.5 downgraded Darkness and related effects, so that they actually create areas of "shadowy illumination" rather than blackness. However, many DMs ignored that change (for example, because if you cast 3.5 Darkness in a completely dark room, it would make the room lighter).
As far as creatures that can turn shadows into true darkness go... I feel like I've read some such thing, but details currently escape me. The one thing I'm sure that the MitD *isn't* a Hellcat; they're invisible in normal light, but glow faintly in darkness.Last edited by allenw; 2013-04-30 at 10:46 PM.
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2013-04-30, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
In that strip (194) it isn't entirely clear if he is in unnatural darkness of any kind, as he doesn't have his umbrella. Granted while leaving Dorukan's Redcloak's light spell was obvious, even Durkon has lampshaded the lack of lanterns overall.
Also, while researching I noticed in strip 96 the MITD comments on not seeing the gate. If that's a clue then the species was decided before at least 96, and is likely the first clue.Last edited by Throknor; 2013-04-30 at 11:27 PM.
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2013-04-30, 11:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Meh. Pathfinder Bestiary 3 wasn't released until late 2011 which puts the kibosh on the Akvan Div Prince. Plus, the beta version of Pathfinder itself only came out in late 2008, so the Pathfinder versions of anything are out as well.
"You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan
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2013-05-01, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
You're thinking of the Pathfinder RPG. Adventure paths set in the Pathfinder universe were released as early as 2007 (they were based on 3.5). In particular, Divs were introduced in 2009.
However Qlippoth is a special case, as it is a mythological being: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qliphoth. It is not infeasible that there exists a 3rd party Qlippoth which dates from ~2004, with similar qualities to the Pathfinder version.
Indeed this is not without precedent – the current MitD "frontrunner", the Haguenemnon Protean, was also a mythological being (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus), a 3rd party monster from ~2004 (http://www.charles-reace.com/Hobbies...ndex.php?id=55), and exists as a class of Pathfinder monsters (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/a...s/protean.html) with similar properties.
Hence why I believe Qlippoths may be a fruitful search path.Last edited by colanderman; 2013-05-01 at 08:45 AM. Reason: I can't spell
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2013-05-01, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Artist of my Avatar: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Rakrakrak-272771299ALL HAIL THE GREAT RAK!!
I use the same name in every game I ever play or forum I join (except the pretender on PSN that forced me to be RealOlinser). If you see an Olinser in a game or on a website, there's a high chance it's me, feel free to shoot me a message.
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2013-05-01, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
I don't have anything fruitful to add on the nature of the MiTD's darkness feature. I did want to note though that the Barbed Devil that Count Durkula summoned, like most Devils, can see perfectly through magical darkness, even Deeper Darkness. If this really is TE walking through the door, with the LG following right behind the Order, I foresee hilarity (and perhaps some more clues to the MiTD's identity) when the Devil realizes just what s/he's up against. Right before s/he Greater Teleport's away. (Although, with an INT of only 12, would a BD recognize the MiTD? The Circus patrons didn't after all.) Of course, the MiTD's darkness or the umbrella's powers, may trump that supernatural ability, but it's still something to watch for.
Thanks, Grey_wolf_c, for your lengthy commentary on my post. Your efforts to foster discussion on this thread, as well as ride herd on the wilder specualtions, are very much appreciated.
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2013-05-01, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Oh, sure, but 2007 is still well after strip #100 so all of Pathfinder would be out. That doesn't mean that anything appearing in Pathfinder is null and void, simply that we can't use the Pathfinder versions of anything as evidence for MitD.
I agree that Qlippoths as a category (along with Ancient Baatorians, if anyone ever finds one that's old enough and actually statted out) are a promising place to look for candidates in terms of general capabilities. However, if you're looking for a specific candidate, you can't use a Pathfinder version because all of the Pathfinder versions for everything came out years too late. The specific candidate has to come from somewhere else.
Pathfinder can be a good starting place to find candidates, and a Qlippoth candidate could work out well, but a Pathfinder Qlippoth just isn't viable. Similarly, I was excited to see all those nifty Pathfinder Haguenenmons, but proposing any of them is pointless unless we can find a older version."You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan
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2013-05-02, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
I am a longtime stalker, and have been following this thread for a long time, but this is my first post here due to my lack of DnD knoledge. One thing though that I thought I should mention though was the possible consideration is that rather than MitD being hidden by the darkness, MitD IS the darkness i.e. some sort of shadow monster.
http://www.monstropedia.org/index.ph...=Shadow_people
http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Shadow_Demon_(3.5e_Monster) (I know it's too late but it's an example of the sort of thing I'm thinking of)
Pros
Explains how the darkness seems to cling to Mitd
whenever somthing is picked up by MiTD, we see no evidence of limbs, only darkness
MiTD is always able to see out of the darkness, yet we can never see in
Circus scene:
corperal parts which would look fairly ugly, and yet a pattern of smoky tendrils might make a beautiful and intricate pattern
Cons
Eating
Earthquake
References to "Stepping out of the shadow" (possible explanation that MiTD hasn't realised what he is, as he has always been concealed)
I don't have SoD, so I can't say exactly how this would match the reaction of the SBGHs,
This is just a general reference to a monster type, so I am curious if there are any general monsters that match MiTD's characteristics more than the Homebrew Demon I posted, but I think it's the best answer for the darkness proposed yet.
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2013-05-02, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Not really possible. Xykon and Redcloak know what MitD is, and they say he can leap out of the shadows. If he really were a shadow monster, why would they think he could do that? Beyond that, it also contradicts much of what happened in SoD, namely the Circus Scene (why would you be grossed out by shadows?) and the bit where Xykon comments on how ugly he is.
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2013-05-02, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
I just was surfing through the archives, and I noticed something interesting in the third and second to last panels of this strip:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html
The MitD is carrying the umbrella and dragging O-Chul on the same side of his body. This suggests multiple grasping appendages on each side of his body, whether hands, tentacles, extruded pseudopods, etc. I admit it could just be an artifact of "stick figure perspective," but it seems like it might be worth at least a passing comment or two.
Edit: another interesting detail. We never see the MitD lying down, not even when he's sleeping. His eyes are at the same height when he falls asleep as when he's awake.Last edited by Bulldog Psion; 2013-05-02 at 03:33 PM.
Spoiler
So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark
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2013-05-02, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Hey wait a second.
If knows the MitD can stomp to use that ability, is there any way we can determine what knowledge they may have?
For example, if the roach only has knowledge the planes or knowledge religion, could we use that to determine where the MitD is from, since the roach knows it's abilities? Or was the roach just guessing the monsters stomp would work again?
Edit:Not JUST to find out where it is from, but to help slim down the race?
Do we know what Demon Roaches are, and what knowledge's the may have?Last edited by Codyage; 2013-05-02 at 03:48 PM.
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2013-05-02, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Or he is holding the umbrella between shoulder and neck, leaving the arm free.
Counterargument
Edit:
You don't need to pass a check to remember a previous occasion of MitD doing the exact same thing.
In any case, roaches have knowledge(Fourth wall).
GWLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-05-02 at 03:47 PM.
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2013-05-02, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-05-02, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-05-02, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)
Certainly. I'm not saying that he must be laying down, I'm only countering that we always see his eyes at the same height.
That said, unless the floor behind the throne is significantly lower than the one in front (because, e.g., that's where the escape tunnel starts), MitD must at least be crouching.
Edit: actually, looking at the height of the stairs, I can see the MitD being just at about the right height. Early on, he wasn't as tall as later on when he is peeking out of the barred window in his box (where he might be on tiptoes). But this only applies if indeed the ground falls behind the throne to floor level. The interpretation that MitD is just laying down in the shadows is equally plausible.
GWLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-05-02 at 04:19 PM.
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