Can Elan have a 'happy ending' without Haley?

[Keltest]

No, I meant the many, MANY comments he's made coming out apologizing for his writing and supporting further inclusiveness, including the very strong assertions that yes, Haley is bi. Too many things are coming together for it to be a coincidence.

Im curious on your take on the part where he said bandana's sexuality will not affect the plot then.

[Itrogash]

I've never seen him do this.

Didn't he quite literally say something like "I'm writing what I want because I can. If you don't like it, feel free to leave" once? Or more than once?

[Takver]

Ah, I understand now that OP wouldn't actually be a big fan of this development. He just thinks it's inevitable. Well, I still think you're wrong, OP. It's true that Bandana seems to have been introduced in part so that we can learn more about Haley's (bi)sexuality and get that out into the open. That doesn't necessitate a relationship, though.

But now it kind of seems like you started this thread as a backhanded way to complain about whatever the Giant has been saying in comments lately. Good luck with that, I guess.

[Seeker]

Didn't he quite literally say "I'm writing what I want because I can. If you don't like it, feel free to leave" once? Or more than once?

Yes, because his critics are a small minority... There was a large group demanding no slut shaming, inclusiveness, etc... You could call that caving.

[Keltest]

Yes, because his critics are a small minority... There was a large group demanding no slut shaming, inclusiveness, etc... You could call that caving.

Caving implies that he disagrees with them but is doing it anyway for their satisfaction. Rich has made it quite clear that anything he changes is for his own satisfaction, and will be changed regardless of the general consensus.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Also, kinda confused as to why I am getting so much hate on this? This is what a large portion of the fanbase wants. This has been heavily discussed by a large portion of the fanbase.

I don't find those two statement to be true. A few people were idly speculating about the possibility of Bandana liking Haley, but I haven't seen anyone suggest that there's a large chance they would get together. Actually, I'm surprised this is the first thread about this, considering how many threads we had about Laurin's favor.

[Cizak]

Yes, because his critics are a small minority... There was a large group demanding no slut shaming, inclusiveness, etc... You could call that caving.

There were people discussing the fact that Haley's verbal attacks towards her female foes often focused on sexuality, clothing and promiscuity. The Giant said "Yeah, now that I think about it, I'm not actually very happy about how I've been writing that part. I'm trying to be a better person, and that includes being able to appologise and try to do better in the future. A lot of things, including your perspective, change as you grow up. I'm ten years older today than I was when the comic started." You could call that caving. I would disagree with you, strongly.

[Knaight]

Two mentions of their shared sexuality in 20 strips -along with meta comments? I also think Bandanna has a clear concern for Haley's welfare, perhaps on a friendly level, perhaps on a attraction level, as evidenced by her sacrificing her own body by pushing Haley out of the way.

I would definitely be suspicious, based on the amount of time they are spending together and various other comments. However, this is removing one of the most important factors: The Giant's comments.

Consider the amount of time Haley and Roy have spent together, their bonding over the entire strip and particularly after Roy came back from the dead, so on and so forth. Consider their mutual concern for each other's welfare. There is significantly more evidence in favor of the "Haley breaks up with Elan in favor of Roy" hypothesis than the "Haley breaks up with Elan in favor of Bandana" hypothesis.

Bandana is, by all indications, a side character which features prominently during a particular arc, with a lot of screen time. That's not new. Shojo, Miko, and Hinjo all got a pretty big amount of time during the Azure City arc, with Miko in particular getting as much as Bandana is now. Daigo, Kazumi, Therkla, and Kubota were all really major once Azure City was evacuated. Ian and Geoff were both pretty major during the desert ark, along with the time spent on the antagonists, Tarquin and Malack. Whatever is possessing Durkon has been getting plenty of time this arc, along with some in the desert arc. Celia was practically a party member during the Greysky City arc.

The point is, there's a well established pattern of major side characters spending a significant amount of time with the party, then fading out. There's been exactly one instance of a minor side character ending up in a romantic relationship with a major character. This is in a strip which has some focus on that, from a variety of angles - Roy's relationship with Celia, an intermittent thing between people in very different worlds, Durkon cutting ties with Hilgya, highlighting the conflict between love and duty and the decision to favor duty, Haley and Elan as compatriots, V neglecting their relationship and it failing, and choosing to acknowledge their failure as a mate and accept the consequences, Belkar playing the hero and leveraging it for meaningless sex. The pattern here is of a lack of repetition that covers a reasonably wide area.

There's also a well established pattern of people on the forum coming up with esoteric predictions based on evidence that is stretched incredibly thin at best. Basic pattern recognition suggests that this concept is in this category, though by esoteric prediction standards this one is at least somewhat plausible.

[YossarianLives]

We had years of subplot dedicated to Haley and Elan getting together. I for one would be rather frustrated if that went to waste. Besides I think it's been implied that Haley's bisexuality was a teenage phase.

[eggynack]

There's a tiny amount of Bandanna/Haley friendship talking, weighed against an absolutely ridiculous amount of narrative weight behind Elan/Haley. They're not just romantically entangled. They're romantically entangled in a way that's a fundamental part of Haley's character development, and that's been backed up by several complicated foils in the form of their parents and parental figures, and that's been tested a number of times. Celia/Roy, now that's just a normal romantic entanglement that could plausibly be disrupted by arbitrary Giant whims. It's incredibly unlikely when it comes to this relationship though, and on the basis of almost nothing.

[Bulldog Psion]

Is this just a roundabout method of continuing to complain about the (very understated) inclusion of a lesbian and a bisexual in the comic? The use of such words as "caving" and the like makes me think that there is a fair chance this is the case.

[Seeker]

Is this just a roundabout method of continuing to complain about the (very understated) inclusion of a lesbian and a bisexual in the comic? The use of such words as "caving" and the like makes me think that there is a fair chance this is the case.

Nope, just a side effect of the direction the comic is going in. I think it is fair to begin to consider things like this. It isn't like it's patently absurd to suggest that, with the development of a new character along with the development of Haley's bisexuality from a joke to full-blown reality, that something may come of it.

Personally, what another poster suggested seems slightly more likely than an actual relationship- Bandanna and Haley go through something similar to Therkla/Elan, perhaps with Haley admitting she has feeling for Bandanna but feeling she can't give up on Elan. Frankly, it would be bad writing to introduce all this and not do SOMETHING with it- it makes the inclusion of a gay character seem even more forced, done in the manner it was, at least. At least make Bandanna and her sexual orientation plot relevant.

Still kind of confused why there is 3 threads in someway related to speculation about the characters' sexual orientations/gender identities on the forums right now yet my relatively low key topic is getting flamed and belittled...

[theNater]

Still kind of confused why there is 3 threads in someway related to speculation about the characters' sexual orientations/gender identities on the forums right now yet my relatively low key topic is getting flamed and belittled...

Well, I notice that the title is about Elan and his relationship with Haley, but the bulk of the opening post is about Haley and Bandana. Indeed, Elan is only discussed in terms of how he would react to Haley and Bandana having a relationship. Is it possible that people are experiencing cognitive dissonance due to this? That might make them a little bit cranky while reading and posting.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think the comic will end with Elan and Haley together in a cuckolding relationship with Roy.

[oppyu]

Besides, if the overlords of social justice forced the Giant to break up a main character's relationship in order to facilitate a samesex relationship, it would be Roy breaking up with Celia to get with Durkon. Everyone knows that.

[Seeker]

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[Lombard]

I'd say Elan has a naturally sanguine personality and can adapt well. Thus, to answer the thread title, 'yes'. I don't know about the Bandana stuff though, does everything have to be a Chekhov's this that or the other..?

However, even taking Bandana completely out of the equation, it's still not hard to imagine Haley straying to someone or another. I mean, seriously, anyone who's been in a long-term relationship, and who is intellectually competent as Haley appears to be, has to realize that being in a relationship with someone who (despite his positive qualities) falls short of even being 'not very bright' is going to present some major issues.

[hamishspence]

The Cliffport arc was about "upgrading" Elan - making him into someone who can actually sustain a relationship.

The Western Continent arcs could be said to be about him overcoming his obsession with narrative structure - learning that stories, while fun, are not worth hurting people over.

So - Elan has been improving, as a person, over time.

[theNater]

Besides, if the overlords of social justice forced the Giant to break up a main character's relationship in order to facilitate a samesex relationship, it would be Roy breaking up with Celia to get with Durkon. Everyone knows that.

You sure it wouldn't be Roy and Belkar? I mean, Belkar has expressed an attraction to Roy. On multiple occasions, if "it gives me the tingles when you go all badass" counts.

[Brumagris]

I believe that Elan will get his happy ending with Haley.

Honestly, I don´t see why there is so much controversy about the Haley-Bandana relationship... honestly, so far what I can see is a forming friendship, regardless of the sexuality of both characters. By the way, the fact that they are not heterosexual doesn´t mean that they have to jump into a relationship just because they found out they are not heterosexual. That is a way too extended cliché in real world that has been proven false.

As far as Haley´s relationships go, we could have especulated that she had a romance with both Tanh and Myu (I don´t recall the exact spelling of their names) when leading Azure City resistance, since there were strong friendship bounds between them, looking after each other and protecting each other.

Besides, what better than to naturally include bisexual-homosexual characters than to make them just regular part of the environment? Why does it have to be just about romantic relationships? Honestly, I believe that is another way of discrimination, by empowering rather worn out stereothipes: "she is a lesbian so she has to forcedly feel something for the lady in the group".


As for Haley breaking up with Elan... it was Haley herself who said something like "I know he is not the most brilliant, but he makes me want to be a better person", plus the massive character development we have seen in Elan: his jailbreak, becoming Dashing Swordman, the full Azure city part, Therkla, family issues in the Western continent... he even got to know Haley´s father and got his approval!
"Maybe you are not a diabolical sleeper agent out to infiltrate my family and destroy everything I´ve worked for".

What is between Elan and Haley is by now true love and I doubt that would break in few strips, unless a major tragedy happens

[oppyu]

Honestly, I don´t see why there is so much controversy about the Haley-Bandana relationship... honestly, so far what I can see is a forming friendship, regardless of the sexuality of both characters. By the way, the fact that they are not heterosexual doesn´t mean that they have to jump into a relationship just because they found out they are not heterosexual. That is a way too extended cliché in real world that has been proven false.

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[Quild]

Maybe it's just me but people I talk sexuality with tend to be friends rather than sexual partners.
Because sometimes you speak easier about a subject with someone who isn't implied in it.

The more I see Haley and Bandana together, the less I think there is sexual tension between them. And I didn't thought much of it to begin with...

[Torzini]

Besides, what better than to naturally include bisexual-homosexual characters than to make them just regular part of the environment? Why does it have to be just about romantic relationships? Honestly, I believe that is another way of discrimination, by empowering rather worn out stereothipes: "she is a lesbian so she has to forcedly feel something for the lady in the group".

This, so much this.

The OP seems to believe that a few passing mentions by Bandana constitute "too much mention of sexuality" -- and that this must indicate that Bandana and Haley are destined to be forced into a relationship. Hm, really?

Without going into again, how trite and forced this would be (particularly in the face of the character development Elan and Haley have both had so far that's specifically centered around the strength of their relationship), I feel like people who say that kind of thing conveniently ignore the sheer amount of straightness that's bantered around in the comic. See, for example, Roy and his "Trouser Titan."

And yet I don't think I've seen anyone claim that's railroaded writing, or that any straight characters are poorly-written (or have to be in a relationship with the next straight person they see) because they occasionally bring to light that they're straight.

Bottom line: sure, I suppose it's technically a possibility that Bandana and Haley will end up being together. It's just very slim, based on all the circumstantial evidence we have, and the opposite of inevitable.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Still kind of confused why there is 3 threads in someway related to speculation about the characters' sexual orientations/gender identities on the forums right now yet my relatively low key topic is getting flamed and belittled...

This is hardly flaming. You asked a question based on a few premises and some people disagreed with those premises. As for the other threads, one is non-speculatory and for the purpose of argument, one has had several people saying that they don't care/are tired of the subject, and one has had far more arguments than this one has.

[littlebum2002]

To be perfectly honest, just about the most disrespectful way Rich could treat the LGBT community would be to go "there's two gay/bi females in the comic now, therefore they HAVE to go out together!"

That is how LGBT characters are usually treated, and it's pretty offensive. The idea that you can't have two characters who are both gay/bi without them being attracted to each other is very common in media, and also very offensive.

I understand where you're coming from, but if your argument is "Rich is trying to be more open minded and inclusive" then there is no way Haley and Banana will end up together. If your argument is "Rich is going to use all the same offensive stereotypes and tropes that everyone else uses" then yes, they probably will.


FYI: 99% of the time, when members of a majority try to decide what the members of a minority want, they're usually wrong. Yes, in theory it sounds good for them to hook up, but I assure you most LGBT people would disagree since that is a very common trope in media and most would love to see it removed.

[The Patterner]

To be perfectly honest, just about the most disrespectful way Rich could treat the LGBT community would be to go "there's two gay/bi females in the comic now, therefore they HAVE to go out together!"

That is how LGBT characters are usually treated, and it's pretty offensive. The idea that you can't have two characters who are both gay/bi without them being attracted to each other is very common in media, and also very offensive.

I understand where you're coming from, but if your argument is "Rich is trying to be more open minded and inclusive" then there is no way Haley and Banana will end up together. If your argument is "Rich is going to use all the same offensive stereotypes and tropes that everyone else uses" then yes, they probably will.


FYI: 99% of the time, when members of a majority try to decide what the members of a minority want, they're usually wrong. Yes, in theory it sounds good for them to hook up, but I assure you most LGBT people would disagree since that is a very common trope in media and most would love to see it removed.

The funny thing here is that not only am I in complete agrement with this post, I actually also read the comic as if Bandana and Haley are just friends. Yes, they are developing a strong friendship, but I can't see this being all that different from her friendship with Roy.

[Bulldog Psion]

Besides, if the overlords of social justice forced the Giant to break up a main character's relationship in order to facilitate a samesex relationship, it would be Roy breaking up with Celia to get with Durkon. Everyone knows that.

You speak words of wisdom, O One with the Purple Brick Wall Avatar.

Though I wouldn't say that a four-way relationship between Roy, Durkon, Belkar, and the Cliffport Guard is out of the question, either.

[truemane]

I think it is fair to begin to consider things like this. It isn't like it's patently absurd to suggest that, with the development of a new character along with the development of Haley's bisexuality from a joke to full-blown reality, that something may come of it.

Of course it's fair to consider things like this. Rampant speculation is one of the best parts of watching a long work come to fruition over time. And it's not absurd to suggest that something may come of it. But it's more than a little presumptuous to insist that this, and only this, will./

Frankly, it would be bad writing to introduce all this and not do SOMETHING with it...

But something is being done with it. It's serving to flesh out the in-game world, to reveal and establish character notes for Haley and Bandana, provides texture, flavour and humour to an otherwise exposition-heavy scene. It's doing all kinds of things. At least as much as the many other places Rich pauses the headlong narrative to highlight something small, fun, or interesting.

At least make Bandanna and her sexual orientation plot relevant.

I think this is the part that's putting people's teeth on edge. Why is that Bandana's sexual orientation needs to have plot relevance? It's just her orientation. Had she revealed herself to be heterosexual, most likely there'd be no thread insisting that she's going to wind up with Elan. And yes, while Rich as been saying a lot of things about inclusion, the dominant theme of his comments has been that inclusion means that "alternate" sexualities just exist, They're no biog deal. They're nothing to get excited or worked up about. They're just there.

So, not only do I not think that Bandana's bisexuality will have plot relevance, I don't think it needs to have any, and I think Rich would be working counter to his own stated purposes if it did.

Still kind of confused why there is 3 threads in someway related to speculation about the characters' sexual orientations/gender identities on the forums right now yet my relatively low key topic is getting flamed and belittled...

I think it's the specificity of the question, and the strident tone of your responses. Suggesting that such and such might mean something is very different from insisting that such and such must mean only this

[Seeker]

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[Keltest]

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I doubt youre a homophobe in the usual sense, but youre clearly agitated by something that is not bothering the vast majority of people, and you keep fixating on Bandana. What exactly are we supposed to think?