Worst class in the entire game.

[Eldest]

On what terms, and define cheese. Almost everything save non magical humans/halflings has at least 1 auto detect. Is it unfair that stealth is hard countered by most everything? Perhaps, but that's not my fault and I won't go out of my way to select the 0.01% he might make it past.

Cheese would, for example, be playing a Psion with (somehow persistant) Touchsight. Playing an elf Ranger with a wolf companion would not be. I am curious, however, which you were interested in: a duel or a contest? A contest would require somebody to moderate it, a duel would not.

[jindra34]

Bar: 1. A successful hide check is essentially invisibility, they flat out won't know where you are (at least not without inhuman sense, and even then only if you don't have darkstalker).
2. You don't need a whole lot to make a hide check, a single shrub, stump, small pile of stuff, short wall, shallow ditch, or thin (like 1' diameter thin) pillar is enough. Its not standing there and hoping they don't see you, its actually trying to either blend in or otherwise block there line of sight to you.

[Thebar99]

Cheese would, for example, be playing a Psion with (somehow persistant) Touchsight. Playing an elf Ranger with a wolf companion would not be. I am curious, however, which you were interested in: a duel or a contest? A contest would require somebody to moderate it, a duel would not.

(I hope) no one is surprised other classes, even low tiers are better.

People are surprised the encounters are better. And you fight them, not your party. So that's what counts.

People also fixated on locks and stealth, their biggest failings.

Remember though, Rogues are the spotlight. A party of Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Rogue would do fine... in spite of the Rogue. Same for Beguiler/Bard/Warblade/Rogue.

Party carries don't count.

Edit: Invis doesn't require cover/concealment and works if stuff is looking at you.

[jindra34]

Let me point out how silly hide can actually get: I'm in a space with a thin pillar/tree. This grants me cover against everyone not within 5 feet of the space. Meaning if I attempt to hide, everyone in every direction has to make the opposed roll or lose track of me.
And of course if I'm already sneaking around, and you HAVEN'T yet beaten my hide check with a spot check, you CAN'T be looking at me.
EDIT:Yes a party constisting of primarily t3 and higher (especially one that includes another character who covers the same ground) will consitently out shine the rogue. But does that really say much about the rogue? Or does it say more about the other characters? And how is having an extra hand around ever harmful?

[Eldest]

(I hope) no one is surprised other classes, even low tiers are better.

People are surprised the encounters are better. And you fight them, not your party. So that's what counts.

People also fixated on locks and stealth, their biggest failings.

Remember though, Rogues are the spotlight. A party of Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Rogue would do fine... in spite of the Rogue. Same for Beguiler/Bard/Warblade/Rogue.

Party carries don't count.

Edit: Invis doesn't require cover/concealment and works if stuff is looking at you.

Answer the question or drop the argument: contest or duel? Or suggest some other manner of proving your argument.

[Notalion]

Sneaking past a guard dog isn't fair? I don't think I even picked that one.

A normal, low level situation = unnatural disadvantage.

Good, you get it.

You aren't even trying any more. Pathetic. Goodbye.

[jindra34]

You aren't even trying any more. Pathetic. Goodbye.

Well technically he didn't. he is however the one who decide to make it into a full fledged war dog, with barding, and give it a handler. And claim that the point was still being made.

[Thebar99]

Answer the question or drop the argument: contest or duel? Or suggest some other manner of proving your argument.

I just did. Rogue vs encounters.

[Eldest]

I just did. Rogue vs encounters.

Very well then, pick your class. Anybody in this thread willing to create 3 encountered, themed around, oh, entering an aristocrat's manor? And then run it?

[Notalion]

Well technically he didn't. he is however the one who decide to make it into a full fledged war dog, with barding, and give it a handler. And claim that the point was still being made.

Oh for the love of-

Look at my posts to him in this thread. In all of them I've been talking about one thing. It isn't the bloody dog.

I don't care about the dog, I don't care if it has Barding. I don't care if it's Awakened and has levels in Bard. None of those are as disingenuous as his continued insistence that his 'fair test' of the Rogue's capabilities take place in an arena that it is literally impossible to Hide in. That just isn't how things work and he knows it, which is why he selectively quoted my post so he could pretend it was about the bloody dog. THAT'S why he's not trying, is pathetic, and I've decided not to bother talking to him.

[CIDE]

Planar Shepherd, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, etc.

Why? They're breaking **** unless you house rule something there or have a campaign optimized against them somehow.

[Arbane]

Planar Shepherd, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, etc.

Why? They're breaking **** unless you house rule something there or have a campaign optimized against them somehow.

Thank Gygax, an actual post about the topic instead of Rogue vs. Dog. (The new Cat vs. Commoner, only not amusing!)

They're "bad" in the opposite direction, by being too powerful rather than incompetent.

I don't know Incarnum stuff very well, but isn't Soulborn famously bad at its job?

[Turalisj]

The Soulborn is like a bad Paladin hack.

[Pickford]

I would disagree with the melee.

While Fighters, and the CW samuria might be crappy classes on the power level scale, they still do whats on the tin. You aren't going to take fighter levels and be surprised he can/can't do something. Its not like say, a Drunken Master which makes you a worse monk by piling on wisdom penalties for using your class features.

If we set the bar with casters like the truenamer who gets less able to use his abilties as he levels, we aren't just talking weak classes were talking straight up dysfunctional.

You do realize they can breath fire 10 times in a row as a free action for a combined 30d6 damage, this after they deal upwards of 26d8 per melee hit (with a 40 str you're capable of wielding a small (~2500lb) boulder as an improvised weapon)?

Sometimes classes require a little ingenuity, and Drunken Master has the potential to be a devastatingly good class.

[Sith_Happens]

And then, without being at least level 3 he can only have ANY chance of OHKO with TWF... meaning no Darkstalker

Since you apparently don't know this, I'd like to point out that humans start with two feats.

[ArcturusV]

4 if you put in flaws. Seems flaws are fairly common to use in the PbP area. Not so in my table experience. But common enough I wouldn't discount them. So that first level rogue could have Darkstalker, Two-Weapon Fighting, and their choice of two other, relevant feats.

As for other classes I might consider pretty near the worst? Shugenja might be up there for me. All the weaknesses of Sorcerers, Wizards, and Healers rolled into one class. No armor, no weapons worth mentioning. Low HP. Bad spontaneous caster progression with limited spells known. The spell list they have is this unholy mess of Blasting and reactive healing and generally their best "offensive" spells require getting into melee. Course, you also get the weaknesses of wizards as well beyond just the low HP. You end up having to give up 1/4 your spell list, painful when your list wasn't that great to start with. You need to keep a ton of Scrolls around in order to cast. Without your scrolls, you can't cast AT ALL...

So... You got the weaknesses of:

Wizard: Low HP, "Spellbook" dependency, Automatically have to specialize and kick out 1/4 of your spell selection.
Sorcerer: Slower spell leveling. Highly limited "Spells known". Slow Metamagicing,
Warmage: Crappy blasting spells.
Healer: Crappy reactive healing spells.

The only strengths I can think of? Well... Umm... it's a Spontaneous Caster so if some PrC said "Spontaneously casts X level spells" it could qualify?

Sense Elements is possibly useful as a detection ability, but it takes too long to really be useful, along with limited range and limited times per day.

But yeah. Definitely bad. I like the class if only because it's so bad it's hard to break it open. Unless I PrC out to something like Void Disciple which isn't so much breaking Shugenja as just a broken PrC. It's probably one of the worst "Full Caster" classes I can think of right next to Healer. Course Healer is more well known and mentioned. But I still think that's pretty bad. Course it also lacks any class features other than "Sense Elements", so that might cut it down even below Healer.

[TuggyNE]

You do realize they can breath fire 10 times in a row as a free action for a combined 30d6 damage, this after they deal upwards of 26d8 per melee hit (with a 40 str you're capable of wielding a small (~2500lb) boulder as an improvised weapon)?

Sometimes classes require a little ingenuity cheese, and Drunken Master has the potential to be a devastatingly good class.

Fixed that for you. Most games will find the listed strategems intolerably rich in lactose. (Even though, of course, fire resistance applies to each breath separately, so a mere 10 resistance reduces it to an average of 5 damage total.)

[Sylthia]

Have to go with commoner.

[KillingAScarab]

I don't know Incarnum stuff very well, but isn't Soulborn famously bad at its job?

I seem to stumble upon "Soulborn are bad" comments with some frequency. I'm trying out one, currently. I don't have enough personal experience, yet, to make a good case on my own. From this archived handbook I get the impression that they can do their job well enough to not qualify for this topic. Not when there are classes like the Shadowsworn, which can apparently be referred to as "That Thing."

[Norin]

Beguiler in a kick down the door group with no scouting, minimal social encounters, and more or less only constructs and mindless undead monsters.... *sigh*

(That was just a vent of frustration, I know beguilers are not crappy. Atm I'm just getting shafted by situational stuff and want to reroll a gish or whatever.)

Looking at the truenamer, I must say I'm rather unimpressed with the design, and put that pretty high on the crappy list.

[Feddlefew]

I'd argue that commoner doesn't count as a class. Unless we want to say that the basic writeup and HD advancement for badgers or some other critter is the worst class in the game. Because that's what commoners are- HD advancement for humanoid that's conveniently located in the DMG NPC section instead of buried in the back of the MM.

[Worira]

Actually, humanoid HD are significantly better than levels in Commoner.

[Sith_Happens]

I seem to stumble upon "Soulborn are bad" comments with some frequency. I'm trying out one, currently. I don't have enough personal experience, yet, to make a good case on my own. From this archived handbook I get the impression that they can do their job well enough to not qualify for this topic. Not when there are classes like the Shadowsworn, which can apparently be referred to as "That Thing."

The problem comes when a Fighter can be a better meldshaper than a Soulborn and have enough feat slots left over to still be better at fighting than a Soulborn too. At which point the Fighter is in every way that matters a better Soulborn than the Soulborn. And if a Fighter can do every part of your own job better than you, you have a serious problem.

I'd argue that commoner doesn't count as a class. Unless we want to say that the basic writeup and HD advancement for badgers or some other critter is the worst class in the game. Because that's what commoners are- HD advancement for humanoid that's conveniently located in the DMG NPC section instead of buried in the back of the MM.

Except there actually is a HD advancement for humanoids (which, incidentally, is much better than Commoner levels).

EDIT: Ninja'd (incidentally, the Ninja is a relatively strong candidate for this thread).

[Feddlefew]

I'll just file this under "Dear gods this is stupid." and "I did not know that.".

Time to do some home brewing....

Edit: One of the things that's always bugged me: Why replace the single HD of someone's (whatever they are) advancement with a class instead of keeping it as "level zero"?

[molten_dragon]

Apostle of peace. Well, it's really vow of nonviolence and vow of peace that cause the problems, but since apostle of peace requires them I'd say it counts.

It's not broken in the sense that it's underpowered. It's broken in the sense that the game doesn't work right any more if you play it.

D&D is a game about killing monsters and taking your stuff, and the apostle of peace requires that not only do you not kill anything, but you do your utmost (including applying mechanical penalties to them and hitting them with mind-affecting peace auras) to stop your allies from killing anything too. And if they do kill something, you lose your abilities. It's all the roleplaying problems of having a paladin in a non-good party but cranked up to 11.

Unless played in a game that is specifically designed around its playstyle, apostle of peace is pretty much guaranteed to cause intra-party conflict, generally ending in the death of the person playing the apostle of peace.

[Thebar99]

Very well then, pick your class. Anybody in this thread willing to create 3 encountered, themed around, oh, entering an aristocrat's manor? And then run it?

Class? I just said it wasn't a duel. Rogue vs encounters means I make the encounters. It'd only take one, really.

Given people's penchant for ankle biter guard dogs and other obvious massive nerfs while still claiming Rogues are relevant if anyone else is making the encounters it's a waste of my time. They'll set up a strawman, knock it down, then claim victory and miss the point all the while.

Which means the question is, who is the ref? Not anyone involved in this thread so far, as their biases are obvious.

[Leon]

Compare to a Soulknife, Monk or Truenamer, which are meant to be badass heroes... and perform very poorly.

Seen a Number of Badass Monks and one Badass Soulknife played over time.
Never seen a Truenamer played tho.

The worst basic class is a tie between cleric, wizard and druid. They may not be the least fun classes to play, but they are almost certainly the least fun classes to play with.

Played right they are the best classes to play with ~ too bad the majority cant use them in the role they shine in: Supporting the rest of the group and making everyone better.

[DarkEternal]

Once upon a time I wanted to play a summoner that relied on one really good creature that would protect him from everything. I didn't really know about the Pathfinder things then, so I went to see some prestige classes.

I came across an Bonded Summoner. The lore could actually work. You choose an elemental that grows in power with you as you level up. EXACTLY what I was looking for.

Except it sucks. Oh God, does it suck. To qualify you must be an arcane caster(capable of casting level 2 spells), so it comes to reasoning that spell casting will be kind of your thing. Except every second level is a dead level to you in terms of gaining a spellcasting class once you get into this.

Then you think "okay, my elemental buddy must have some awesome abilities, right? It's the reason I went for this class!"

Ho-ho-ho, I say with a Jabbaesque tone. No. It sucks. It sucks so much that the rangers animal companion would tear it a new one. The summoner also becomes an "elemental" in time which gives you far less than what you might think. It's one "good" thing is that the elemental gets saving resistance equal to your arcane level +5(after level 9 that is).

So yeah, I just went with malconvoker instead and never looked back.

[Maugan Ra]

Class? I just said it wasn't a duel. Rogue vs encounters means I make the encounters. It'd only take one, really.

Given people's penchant for ankle biter guard dogs and other obvious massive nerfs while still claiming Rogues are relevant if anyone else is making the encounters it's a waste of my time. They'll set up a strawman, knock it down, then claim victory and miss the point all the while.

Which means the question is, who is the ref? Not anyone involved in this thread so far, as their biases are obvious.

*wanders past*

Ok, sure, why not. I have some time. Give me a bit and I'll have a couple of quick scenarios worked out for this sort of thing.

[Maugan Ra]

Right. Here can be found that initial setup challenge for the rogue-related competition. First task, recovering a stolen item from a group of bandits living in the forest. Hopefully people will agree that this is not an entirely unrealistic example of a small mission?

5th level characters, WBL, most books allowed. Go with 28 point buy for stats. I'm not getting immensely into specifics and making rulings on everything that may or may not come up in terms of character creation, because this is a random little challenge thing, and not a full game I'm running here.

And to keep it on the same topic as the thread, everyone else, feel free to offer commentary on how folks do, possible tactics, and how your very own 'worst class' would do in this situation.