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2010-03-19, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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[3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
Invisble spell from Cityscape is known to be pretty broken - +0 metamagic that can give you invisible Prismatic Spheres, blind anyone using true seeing with no save or allow you to gain permanent invisibility, which I don't think can even be dispelled.
But the feat itself is pretty cool, and I hate to just ban it, so how is this fix? Any problems? And what level adjustment should it carry?
Invisible Spell
Benefit:
You can modify a spell you cast so that it carries no visual manifestation. All other aspects of the spell, including range, area, targets, and damage remain the same. Note that this feat has no bearing on any components required to cast the enhanced spell, so the spell’s source might still be apparent, depending on the situation, despite its effects being unseen. For example, a fireball cast by someone with this feat could be made invisible in the moment of its detonation, but everyone in the area would still feel the full effect (including the heat), and any flammable materials ignited by the explosion would still burn visibly with nonmagical fire. Creatures (not including summons, but including called creatures), nonmagical materials that the spell creates that are permanent (such as Wall of Iron but not Orb of Acid), or other permanent effects cannot be made invisible in this way. Those with detect magic, see invisibility, or true seeing spells or effects active at the time of casting will see whatever visual manifestations typically accompany the spell, but will also be able to see through such manifestations, manifestations do not obstruct line of sight. A spell modified using the Invisible Spell feat uses a spell slot +1 level higher.Last edited by Myou; 2010-03-20 at 04:57 AM.
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2010-03-19, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
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2010-03-19, 05:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
So, removing the visual manifestation of a spell is worth +2 spell level adjustment? Why in the hell? You've basically just nerfed the hell out of this feat, which wasn't all that broken on its own. It was another valid defense against true seeing and similar, and costs a feat slot, which is expense enough.
I can see it being +1 for certain applications - invisible obscuring mist, invisible invisibility... but +2? No. That's just borked and pointless. Look at other +2s: Empower Spell, Split Ray, Reach Spell... those are worth a +2 level adjustment, but removing the visual manifestation of a spell isn't. Why?
Adding 50% damage to a spell is always applicable. Firing off two rays for one spell is always applicable. Changing the range of a Personal spell is always applicable.
Making your spells only visible to things with see invisibility or true seeing is not always applicable. It's situational. It's fine as a +0, or a +1 if you really need to curb what you view as "broken uses". Anything else is ridiculous.Now if you don't mind, I am somewhat preoccupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.
I cast irresistable phantasmal killer as a 4th level spell. No save, just die.
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2010-03-19, 05:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-03-19, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
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2010-03-19, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
Step 1: Kill the subject in such a way that it leaves no corpse whatsoever (this is left as an exercise for the reader).
Step 2: Use an Invisible Spell True Resurrection to revive the subject.
Alternately, you can reverse the order if you don't mind the subject losing a level:
Step 1: Start an Invisible Spell Clone of the subject.
Step 2: Kill the subject.Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2010-03-19 at 05:42 PM.
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2010-03-19, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
I'm referring to True Resurrection, which creates a new body for the character.
There isn't supposed to be a defence against True Seeing - that spell is itself defensive, and inflicting blindness with no save while you can still see is very broken.
An invisible Prismatic Wall is far better than an empowered spell of that level. Enemies won't even know it's there.
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2010-03-19, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
Well, they won't know it's there until it blasts them into the kumquat kingdom (violet layer, random plane shift), anyway ... and even then, they might not know what hit them.
But yes:
As a +0 spell, it works just fine on Instant Direct-damage spells (as there's almost no game effect), but less so on non-damaging spells, or on area effects.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2010-03-19, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
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2010-03-19, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
"Creatures or permanent effects cannot be made invisible in this way"
Therefore, you can make anyone permanently invisible.
But a +1 spell level is pretty reasonable imo, it's not at all overpowered, you can still hear the spell, and see its effects on its environment.Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2010-03-19, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
Again, that's situational, not something that can be applied in 99.9% of situations that come up. Other +2s are usable in 99.9% of situations; Invisible Spell as a +2 comes up the very few rare times when it'd actually be an instant-win, or less than 0.1% of situations that require being solved without insta-gibbing/face-murdering/utterly destroying a target. Which, let's be honest, rarely comes up.
Before the change, you have a situation in which few people take Invisible Spell for using it creatively; after the change, you have a situation in which nobody takes invisible spell. It gets relegated to the ranks of the Dodge chain - nice, but not worth it save for meeting prerequisites. And it gets pushed even further back because no prestige class requires invisible spell.
As a +0, yes, it can be too powerful in specific situations. As a +1, it's not even on par with most other +1s (double duration, etc), much less +2s, both of which can useful all the time. So, a weak +1, or powerful +0. That's the only choice you have: between "Yeah, this looks fun" and "Ehh... it might come in handy" instead of "Yeah, this looks fun" and "What? No. Not worth a feat".Now if you don't mind, I am somewhat preoccupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.
I cast irresistable phantasmal killer as a 4th level spell. No save, just die.
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2010-03-19, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
It's not situational though - many invisible spells are completely undetectable to most characters, and thing like invisible Prismatic Walls can be used to end whole encounters easily. Invisible Spell as written is very overpowered. I would far prefer invisible to empower or extend for sheer power.
I'm afraid I don't follow.
Do you mean 'can't'?
Also, most spells don't make sound or have obvious effects like that.
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2010-03-19, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
I do think that things like "Invisible Fog Cloud" are reasonable ways to hamper See Invis and True Seeing.
I would prefer "creatures able to see the invisible ignore the effects of this metamagic effect"
Thus, an 'invisible Silent image' would be treated as a normal 'Silent image' to someone with true seeing. They would then see through it.
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2010-03-19, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
That depends on how the DM in question plays the encounter. Most people (IE, anyone with INT greater than 3) would realize that something's up when their buddy steps through an apparently empty space and see that buddy burned, sprayed by acid, and vanished to who-knows-where. Also, at that point, Prismatic Wall is also blocking your friends from getting in, and blocking your line of effect. Which means, wa-hey, they get to run away and you have to wait for its duration to end before you can give chase.
Seriously, auto-ending encounters? If the DM plays the encounters like your opponents have INT - or 1-2.Now if you don't mind, I am somewhat preoccupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.
I cast irresistable phantasmal killer as a 4th level spell. No save, just die.
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2010-03-19, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2010-03-19, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
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2010-03-19, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
I don't even understand how a campaign benefits from this feat in general. Quite honestly, if your game does, I don't see why you would need to mess with it much. I'd suggest that the ability is too broadly worded, hides too much. It recreates most of the issues of 2ed invisibility, but now with even wilder implications. If you really want to fix it, I'd start by asking what exact spells you want invisible in your games, and see if you can put some restrictions upon it based on that, while still leaving it as +0.
But I'd trivially ban something that allows for an invisible fireball, to say nothing of the actually powerful uses of this spell. Even at its face value, used as intended, this is a wild feat.
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2010-03-19, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
I thought I said all I wanted, but as a big fan of the prismatic effects, I'll say one more thing:
The implied flavor involves the colors actually being manifest, raw edges of reality brought out, separated, and working for the caster. Essentially, the colors are what damage you. Game mechanically, that's not what's going on- the brilliant flickering spectral colors could be dismissed as "fluff" or some such derisive term, and you've simply created a zone of save-or-die effects. My claim is that any feat or setup that allows for the prismatic effects without the colors being manifest is highly suspect from the perspective of how these things are supposed to work. I think that this kind of thinking is really encouraged by this feat, and that in my book is a big strike against it.
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2010-03-19, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
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2010-03-19, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
Good grief of course I am, I'd never allow this feat at all! I mean, I'm pretty sure I can cast invisible colorspray IRL- I'm making colors, but you can't SEE them! WoooOOooo! I'm specced deep into Unfalsifiable Claims, you see. I also have Inaudible Shout and Invisible Nonthermal Fireball prepared today, as well as Invisible Imperceptible Wall Of Stone.
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2010-03-19, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
I think that's far more insulting than anything I've said so far in this thread, and now I have to rectify that.
While, yes, you "make sense", you only make sense insofar as you believe that the flavor text put out for spells by Wizards of the Coast are the only way to interpret spells.
When, in fact, fluff is mutable. And yes, that's all ANYTHING named by WotC is: Fluff. Change the word "Prismatic" to "Shifting" or "Dazzling" or "Elemental" and the spell remains the same, only that the flavor of the mechanics change (from colors to warping the fabric of reality to shattering your mind to being pieces of elemental planes brought forth).
There's numerous references in the PHB and DMG that says renaming abilities/spells/etc is fine and dandy - which, if we're to go by your insipid interpretations, means that if WotC said it, then we can follow that rule blindly and rename everything in binary if we wanted to.
So, if your only argument against invisible spell is 'but they can't see the colors lol', please. Shut up, and take your insulting manner of speaking elsewhere.
EDIT: Also, you mean silent shout and invisible energy substituted coldball and invisible greater shadow conjuration mimicking wall of stone.Last edited by RelentlessImp; 2010-03-19 at 07:37 PM.
Now if you don't mind, I am somewhat preoccupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.
I cast irresistable phantasmal killer as a 4th level spell. No save, just die.
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2010-03-19, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
I think how the original version worked in fine with a few modifications.
1st: The visible effects of the spell end with the duration of the the modified spell.
An invisible fireball still works as an Instantaneous spell could still be invisible for an Instantaneous amount of time.
But wall of stone are raise dead fail, because their invisibility would end in an instant, the same duration as the spell.
2: Spells that are dependent on vision lose those effects if made invisible, so say a prismatic walls blinding effect is negated because you can't see the colors of the wall.
As would the concealment granted by fog-cloud as you can't see the cloud.
And of course a +1 or 2 adjustment.Last edited by Lord Vukodlak; 2010-03-19 at 07:47 PM.
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2010-03-19, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
Stupendous! Am I speaking to the Invisible Spell Feat itself? Because if I am, then you sure should be insulted! But if I'm not speaking to the feat itself, you don't really have grounds for that!
While, yes, you "make sense", you only make sense insofar as you believe that the flavor text put out for spells by Wizards of the Coast are the only way to interpret spells.
When, in fact, fluff is mutable. And yes, that's all ANYTHING named by WotC is: Fluff. Change the word "Prismatic" to "Shifting" or "Dazzling" or "Elemental" and the spell remains the same, only that the flavor of the mechanics change (from colors to warping the fabric of reality to shattering your mind to being pieces of elemental planes brought forth).
Many things have a mechanical effect that is assumed to be based on the physical effect. That is why they bothered to WRITE the mechanical effect to begin with. That's the direction of design. Allowing this feat encourages a scavenger hunt for spells like this- stuff where you take away the visible effect and the entire situation becomes bizzare and strange.
There's numerous references in the PHB and DMG that says renaming abilities/spells/etc is fine and dandy - which, if we're to go by your insipid interpretations, means that if WotC said it, then we can follow that rule blindly and rename everything in binary if we wanted to.
So, if your only argument against invisible spell is 'but they can't see the colors lol', please. Shut up, and take your insulting manner of speaking elsewhere.
The feat strikes me as wildly absurd and hilarious. It's like Causeless Effect done to ridiculousness. It strikes me as a comedic gag and quite honestly I suspect I could go on for several pages if I was motivated to. I gave good suggestions for putting limits on it if you desire the effects of the feat in your campaign without some of the more unbalancing effects, but I honestly suspect that any ability that pronouncedly delimits the in-game physical manifestation of effects from the game rules, lets you slice and dice them, then reorganize them, will encourage your players to think in terms of Game Mechanics Legos- you'll give them a world where they want to apply affects independently of causes, and are actively rewarded for doing so. I don't see, personally, how that will help a game- but each group does their own things. The intention of the spell was likely to allow for a stealthy spell, but I wouldn't even allow THAT because it's likely ripe for abuse. The implications of this feat are surreal, so any campaign that allows it should be prepared for surreal situations.
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2010-03-19, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
The thing is, though, the massively nasty stuff is still there
1) Long-duration hazards are now much harder to avoid.
2) For the most part, the bit on an Invisible Spell Obscuring Mist wasn't about the invisible fog granting concealment... it was about negating the ability to See Invisible stuff - as when you turn on your See Invisibility, you're now subject to the invisible mist, and thus can't see.
3) The blind effect of standing near a Prismatic Wall is by far the least of the reasons it's useful with Invisible Spell - you now put a wall of doom between yourself and your opponent... and your opponent doesn't know about the wall of doom.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2010-03-19, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-03-19, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
No, it's not. As is, those under effects of true seeing see "the normal effect of the spell".
So an invisible illusion is a fully functional illusion. By the precise wording, Invisible spell defeats true seeing. If True Seeing merely ignores the effects of the feat, then True Seeing follows whatever interaction it would otherwise normally have with the spell.
In other words, that fix preserves the ability of the feat to defeat trueseers with effects that would normally defeat true-seeing, without allowing effects that would not ordinarily trump it to do so.
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2010-03-20, 04:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
Has anyone's DM actually allowed the PCs to be blinded by an invisible prismatic sphere or invisible color spray?
My DM would just say "Nope, can't see, can't be blinded by it. Spell doesn't affect your mind, it effects your eyes."
Trueseeing also grants See Invisibility....
Such creatures are visible to you as translucent shapes, allowing you easily to discern the difference between visible, invisible, and ethereal creatures.
How would seeing a translucent fog blind true seeing? Yes you can still SEE the fog, but it doesn't blind or even obscure your vision.
But the invisible spell description says "Those with... or true seeing spells... at the time of casting will see whatever visual manifestations typically accompany the spell." Yes, yes they will, as a translucent shape. But it doesn't say as a translucent shape! Your right it doesn't say HOW the person with true seeing will see them, thats up to your DM.Always attack a man’s strengths, No one ever expects you to attack the strongest part of the fort. Up the middle that’s where the action is. And it’s the same in life. Don’t run away, attack them head on as their coming at you at full speed. Because that my friend is living.
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2010-03-20, 04:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
Feelings seem to be running very high in this thread, so rather than argue I'll hold my tongue.
Anyway, I've slightly reworded my fix, and I'm thinking of making it +1 level instead of +2. It's certainly very powerful for +1 though.
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2010-03-20, 05:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Making Invisible Spell less broken
The issue is: That doesn't matter.
The wording of Invisible spell explicitly calls out these functions. If you can see invisibility, you instead see the normal effects of the spell (note: It does not say that you see the effects that you normally would. You see the normal effects. Thus, the normal effects of the Invisibility spell are: the person is not detectable by sight. Now, True Seeing gets that, rather than its normal effect, when you cast "Invisible Invisibility".) This is a specific case when the functioning of the spell is altered in a specific instance.
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2010-03-20, 05:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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