Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

[Dion]

Here's an alternate metaphor:

I kind of like the pen metaphor better, because there’s no insanity implied. Suppose one person sees something they interpret one way, for example “I think I see a pen on that table”, and someone else says “no, it’s a trick of the light. It’s just a stick.”

Then, like Lacuna says, the pen makes absolutely little difference. Both people are mking observations, and drawing conclusions from those observations. It’s inreresting and fun to see how those observations are different, and how the conclusions are different.

Now, if one person tries to insist that their conclusions are right, it can get very tiresome.

Hopefully Lacuna has the self awareness necessary to not be suffering under the mistaken delusion that his conclusions are correct.

[Kish]

Mistaken delusions are much worse than accurate delusions.

[Ruck]

I don’t understand this answer. Are you interested in learning from other people why they enjoy the story in the way they enjoy it, so you can understand and perhaps even share that enjoyment?

Or are you interested in convincing people that they’re enjoying he story in the wrong way?

Frankly I think the quote is the sort of snide thing someone attempting to sound clever would say.

I kind of like the pen metaphor better, because there’s no insanity implied. Suppose one person sees something they interpret one way, for example “I think I see a pen on that table”, and someone else says “no, it’s a trick of the light. It’s just a stick.”

Then, like Lacuna says, the pen makes absolutely little difference. Both people are mking observations, and drawing conclusions from those observations. It’s inreresting and fun to see how those observations are different, and how the conclusions are different.

Now, if one person tries to insist that their conclusions are right, it can get very tiresome.

Hopefully Lacuna has the self awareness necessary to not be suffering under the mistaken delusion that his conclusions are correct.

I was trying to think of a more apt metaphor, but in this case it's hard to, because as Lacuna's latest posts demonstrate, he thinks "not showing Shojo trying every idea I think is more optimal than the direction he chose (even when my ideas are demonstrated to be less optimal than what he did do, or to not have a basis in the facts of the story) is a plot hole." Even though "characters not behaving optimally" is in no way a plot hole.

Since the pen is the plot hole in his metaphor, it's more like... I dunno, seeing something written on a piece of paper, and concluding that it must be written by a very specific brand of pen, and that pen must be nearby, and that anyone who can't see that is wrong, even though he has found no pen, no pen appears to be nearby, and to everyone else it looks like it was written in pencil.

[Peelee]

I kind of like the pen metaphor better, because there’s no insanity implied.

Sure there is. Hallucinating the pen is certainly a possibility.

[The Pilgrim]

The Pen is a Lie.

[Caerulea]

Sure there is. Hallucinating the pen is certainly a possibility.

Perhaps we should avoid attributing insanity to a poster? They can be wrong without being insane. (I am wrong frequently, and am pretty sure I am sane.)

[Ruck]

Sure there is. Hallucinating the pen is certainly a possibility.

I guess another way to look at the pen metaphor is:

I kind of like the pen metaphor better, because there’s no insanity implied. Suppose one person sees something they interpret one way, for example “I think I see a pen on that table”, and someone else says “no, it’s a trick of the light. It’s just a stick.”

Lacuna is now at the point where everyone else has told him they see a stick, but he still insists the object is objectively a pen; he picks up the pen/stick to write with it to prove that it's a pen, and even though nobody else sees any ink coming from it, he still insists there is ink coming from it, still insists it's a pen and that everyone else is wrong, and also that they are just stupid and brainwashed and lacking in self-awareness and in denial because they like sticks.

[Kish]

Perhaps we should avoid attributing insanity to a poster? They can be wrong without being insane. (I am wrong frequently, and am pretty sure I am sane.)

I'm sorry to hear that.

For my part, I'm glad to say I'm quite sure I'm completely insane.

[Ruck]

I'm sorry to hear that.

For my part, I'm glad to say I'm quite sure I'm completely insane.

It's been a long time since I read Catch-22, but I believe this acknowledgment of your insanity means you are indeed sane and fit for combat.

[Peelee]

Perhaps we should avoid attributing insanity to a poster? They can be wrong without being insane. (I am wrong frequently, and am pretty sure I am sane.)

I agree on all counts. I was just saying that the statement wasn't entirely correct.

[Caerulea]

I agree on all counts. I was just saying that the statement wasn't entirely correct.

Okay. I do think Lacuna occasionally makes some sense (am I insane‽) hence my objection. I suspect they will be stopping by shortly to complain of personal attacks (maybe linking to one of those fancy fallacy explanation pages).

[Ruck]

I didn't use "insane" or "insanity" for various reasons, like crossing into personal attacks or muddying my metaphor. I suppose I find it difficult to come up with a metaphor where one person is in denial of and opposed to the reality the rest of us share without it seeming like I'm calling that person insane.

Okay. I do think Lacuna occasionally makes some sense (am I insane‽) hence my objection. I suspect they will be stopping by shortly to complain of personal attacks (maybe linking to one of those fancy fallacy explanation pages).

Oh, I don't think Lacuna has any standing to do that anymore.

[Caerulea]

Oh, I don't think Lacuna has any standing to do that anymore.

Somehow, I don't think reason or lack of standing will stop them.

[Vinyadan]

Next question: Why did he tell Miko he was sending her to arrest them, instead of telling her, "Bring this sealed letter to the leader of the Order of the Stick. It's imperative that it not be opened by anyone but him. Wait for his reply. If he says he's willing to come talk to me, escort him back."?

(My answer is: Because Shojo related to everyone as chess pieces. He wasn't thinking in terms of getting a message to the Order; he was thinking in terms of getting the Order to him, regardless of their desires in the matter. He was also willfully blind to how volatile Miko was, and assumed that she would obey the letter of his orders without thought, as he did with every one of the paladins.)

(Other reasons can be proposed, but "because Miko never got missions to act as a messenger" would be a really bad one, considering what her next assignment after No Cure for the Paladin Blues ended was.)

"Because letters can be stolen, Miko is not invincible, and she might lose her purse. And then vital and secret info is ready to be eaten."

[Aquillion]

I don’t understand this answer. Are you interested in learning from other people why they enjoy the story in the way they enjoy it, so you can understand and perhaps even share that enjoyment?

Although this is tangential (I know you weren't addressing me), as the person who started this thread, I feel I should say that my purpose in asking questions like these is always just because I find it fun to think about the answer.

I mean, we all know the real underlying reason is "otherwise there wouldn't be a story", but it can be fun to take things apart and see how they tick, so to speak, or to just engage in vague fanfiction-y thoughts about why things are the way they are in an in-universe sense.

[Kish]

"Because letters can be stolen, Miko is not invincible, and she might lose her purse. And then vital and secret info is ready to be eaten."

That would be a viable answer for why he sent a wizard, or a celestial, or a super anti-lich hit squad instead, had he done those things as Lacuna apparently thinks he should have.

It doesn't really address why he sent only Miko, but with orders to arrest the Order instead of delivering a message. "The message never gets there" would still be disastrous from Shojo's perspective and the letter wouldn't need to contain anything useful to a random bandit to be enough to convince Roy he wanted to talk to Shojo.

[Ruck]

That would be a viable answer for why he sent a wizard, or a celestial, or a super anti-lich hit squad instead, had he done those things as Lacuna apparently thinks he should have.

It doesn't really address why he sent only Miko, but with orders to arrest the Order instead of delivering a message. "The message never gets there" would still be disastrous from Shojo's perspective and the letter wouldn't need to contain anything useful to a random bandit to be enough to convince Roy he wanted to talk to Shojo.

What I think about in debates like this is: I don't need characters to make optimal choices, just choices that are plausible for the character.

It probably would have been smarter to send a message than an arrest order, but given how paranoid Shojo is, i'm sure he would not risk a message falling into the wrong hands, especially anything with information about the gates. (Also, he's collaborating with Eugene, and given how Eugene regards Roy, I wouldn't be surprised if he convinced Shojo a plan that got Roy in person rather than delivered a message was better. I mean, Eugene can't berate Roy about Xykon through a letter. Well, he can, but he can't see Roy's reaction that way.)

And I'm sure Miko was sent because she was both best at tracking the Order and best capable of subduing the Order if need be, and probably sent by herself because traveling alone and by horse was the fastest way to find them (probably important given that they were on the move). Shojo probably felt comfortable sending her alone because he overestimated the degree to which he had her trigger-happiness reined in, which, well, we all saw how that turned out for him. (Upon rereading those first Miko strips recently, I'm surprised to the degree which her "if it Detects Evil, I can kill it" attitude was already present-- I didn't remember her being that explicit about it from the get-go.)

Was it optimal? Hardly. Was it in character for a paranoid schemer who thought he had the violent tendencies of one of his top lieutenants-- the one who eventually murdered him-- reined in well enough to follow orders? Yes.

[Jasdoif]

It probably would have been smarter to send a message than an arrest order, but given how paranoid Shojo is, i'm sure he would not risk a message falling into the wrong hands, especially anything with information about the gates.

I think what Kish said earlier is much closer: Shojo wasn't willing to entertain the possibility of the Order refusing to hear him out. To that end, he wanted them to hear him out in a location he controlled, whether they liked it or not. To that end, he needed to get them to that location he controlled, whether they liked it or not. To that end, he needed someone able to subdue the Order, if they didn't like it. To that end, he dispatched a powerful combatant: Miko.

It also gave Shojo a lot more options for contingencies in case the Order refused; although I don't think we're likely to ever find out about them, including whether they actually existed.

[Ruck]

I think what Kish said earlier is much closer: Shojo wasn't willing to entertain the possibility of the Order refusing to hear him out. To that end, he wanted them to hear him out in a location he controlled, whether they liked it or not. To that end, he needed to get them to that location he controlled, whether they liked it or not. To that end, he needed someone able to subdue the Order, if they didn't like it. To that end, he dispatched a powerful combatant: Miko.

It also gave Shojo a lot more options for contingencies in case the Order refused; although I don't think we're likely to ever find out about them, including whether they actually existed.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, probably more than my idea. The point in general just being that it's not hard to find plausible reasons why Shojo would do it that way.

[Mightymosy]

Because Shojo is supposed to be more than just a paranoid liar. He's also supposed to be an intelligent governor and chaotic good in alignment.

To be fair, 'Shojo is genuinely senile' was one of my top picks for an explanation a few months back, but the problem is that this isn't just Shojo having a brain-fart. He not only has to make some stunningly poor decisions himself, he has to ignore or forbid better suggestions from everyone around him.

Spoiler

Show

I don't know, Dion. I suppose we'll have to see what turns up.

I'll answer your questions in the quotes in quotes inside (don't show up in this post unfortunately), which boil down (in my opinion) to two basic questions:

1. Why do Shojo and Miko plan and act as if Teleport doesn't exist?
2. Why do Shojo and Miko plan and act as if Future vision (Sangwaan) doesn't exist?

Both Teleport and prophetic visions are plot-breaking powers if someone takes the time to think it through.

That is precisely why almost every story which uses them uses them only sparingly, when the author thinks it fits the narrative.
Most times they give some explanation of why these powers can't be used here and can't be used there, but most of the time these explanations only work on a superficial level.
Because these stories don't have the focus to consider "What would a world with Teleport look like?"
These are stories about "Heroes getting from A to B, oh and a couple of times this is Teleport, but this is something special".

In other words: These powers come with the cost of story plausibility, pretty much almost always. The better the author, the lower the price, because they can give better explanations. But the core principle is still there.


OotS even is a PARODY. Of a game system that is KNOWN to be imperfect, especially in that its ecology wouldn't make sense.
I don't know why you get so angry over this. For me, it is clear that this story is constructed under the assumptions that these things don't HAVE to make perfect sense.

ETA:

I think what Kish said earlier is much closer: Shojo wasn't willing to entertain the possibility of the Order refusing to hear him out. To that end, he wanted them to hear him out in a location he controlled, whether they liked it or not. To that end, he needed to get them to that location he controlled, whether they liked it or not. To that end, he needed someone able to subdue the Order, if they didn't like it. To that end, he dispatched a powerful combatant: Miko.

It also gave Shojo a lot more options for contingencies in case the Order refused; although I don't think we're likely to ever find out about them, including whether they actually existed.

Well, he could have tried TALKING first.

1. Cast Sending to Roy:
"Please come to Azure City. World at stake. Can't explain details".

if that doesn't work:

2. Send Miko as shown in the comic



I understand that Shojo has no problem forcing Roy to come, but there is little reason to use force on the first try - if you are being intelligent and efficient. But maybe that's the whole point: That Sojo isn't as clever as he may think. And makes stupid moves, you know, like every other character in the comic basically.

[Jasdoif]

Well, he could have tried TALKING first.

1. Cast Sending to Roy:
"Please come to Azure City. World at stake. Can't explain details".

if that doesn't work:

2. Send Miko as shown in the comic

Hmm. So, if Roy goes to Azure City on a such a flimsy message, he shows a level of naivete on par with Scooby Doo and can't be relied on to keep a secret from the Sapphire Guard (who Shojo is specifically bypassing because they won't abide what he's doing)....And if Roy doesn't go to Azure City, at best Roy is going to have even less incentive to cooperate with Shojo because of the extra level of treachery; and Roy could be better prepared against Miko, or even reveal to Miko that he'd been contacted by someone in Azure City already.


No, if Shojo's going to drag the Order down to Azure City whether they like it or not, trying to be diplomatic first is (for him) a draw at best, and a loss the rest of the time.

[Ruck]

Hmm. So, if Roy goes to Azure City on a such a flimsy message, he shows a level of naivete on par with Scooby Doo and can't be relied on to keep a secret from the Sapphire Guard (who Shojo is specifically bypassing because they won't abide what he's doing)....And if Roy doesn't go to Azure City, at best Roy is going to have even less incentive to cooperate with Shojo because of the extra level of treachery; and Roy could be better prepared against Miko, or even reveal to Miko that he'd been contacted by someone in Azure City already.


No, if Shojo's going to drag the Order down to Azure City whether they like it or not, trying to be diplomatic first is (for him) a draw at best, and a loss the rest of the time.

I had the thought at one point that Shojo could just send a message to Roy about Xykon specifically, thus not technically violating the Sapphire Guard's oath, but I'm sure that would raise a lot of questions from the Guard as to why their leader was fixated on a lich who (as far as they know) has no bearing on their holy mission.

[Vinyadan]

I've always wanted to read that, but honestly this ALL CAPS LOCK stuff was too much for my eyes

ctrl copy to word, shift+f3

[Mightymosy]

Hmm. So, if Roy goes to Azure City on a such a flimsy message, he shows a level of naivete on par with Scooby Doo and can't be relied on to keep a secret from the Sapphire Guard (who Shojo is specifically bypassing because they won't abide what he's doing)....And if Roy doesn't go to Azure City, at best Roy is going to have even less incentive to cooperate with Shojo because of the extra level of treachery; and Roy could be better prepared against Miko, or even reveal to Miko that he'd been contacted by someone in Azure City already.


No, if Shojo's going to drag the Order down to Azure City whether they like it or not, trying to be diplomatic first is (for him) a draw at best, and a loss the rest of the time.

1. Roy did react to some flimsy sending spell message (by a known villain!) with the plan "Just spring the trap". Don't think naivete is of concern, not in this comic.

2. Roy DID work with Shojo AFTER knowing Shojo treated Roy as **** - it might have even HELPED if Shojo could point to "Look, I TRIED to get you here without force, but you didn't come. So, for the sake of the world, I HAD to use force as SECOND measure."

Really, nothing to looe trying sending. Especially when Shojo can use information from Eugen to convince Roy to trust him. Eugene could tell Shojo family secrets so that Roy would be convinced that Eugene is with Shojo.
Heck, or just tell him how to contact Eugene again after Eugene couldn't appear in Ghostform to Roy anymore.

Unless Sending is incredibly expensive that a city ruler can't spend that resources......

[Keltest]

1. Roy did react to some flimsy sending spell message (by a known villain!) with the plan "Just spring the trap". Don't think naivete is of concern, not in this comic.

2. Roy DID work with Shojo AFTER knowing Shojo treated Roy as **** - it might have even HELPED if Shojo could point to "Look, I TRIED to get you here without force, but you didn't come. So, for the sake of the world, I HAD to use force as SECOND measure."

Really, nothing to looe trying sending. Especially when Shojo can use information from Eugen to convince Roy to trust him. Eugene could tell Shojo family secrets so that Roy would be convinced that Eugene is with Shojo.
Heck, or just tell him how to contact Eugene again after Eugene couldn't appear in Ghostform to Roy anymore.

Unless Sending is incredibly expensive that a city ruler can't spend that resources......

I think youre missing the point. Shojo does not want to offer Roy the opportunity to say no. Contacting him via sending means he's relying entirely on his winning personality to persuade Roy, and Shojo fundamentally doesn't want to leave it that much up to chance.

[Mightymosy]

I think youre missing the point. Shojo does not want to offer Roy the opportunity to say no. Contacting him via sending means he's relying entirely on his winning personality to persuade Roy, and Shojo fundamentally doesn't want to leave it that much up to chance.

No, you're missing my point: Shojo can send a message, and THEN, if Roy DOES decline, STILL force him via the fake trial.
Thus Shojo doesn't REALLY offer Roy an opportunity to say no, but IF Roy says YES, Roy does so under the assumption that he COULD have said no, thus keeping Roy in good spirit, which would be preferable as a working condition.

Letting people THINK they choose their own destiny while in reality controlling their behavior if they choose a decision you don't like sounds pretty chaotic rulership to me, you know, just like a Shojo.

[Ruck]

1. Roy did react to some flimsy sending spell message (by a known villain!) with the plan "Just spring the trap". Don't think naivete is of concern, not in this comic.

What are you talking about?

[zimmerwald1915]

What are you talking about?

Nale's plan to lure Roy to Cliffport. But it could also Durkon's vampire's plan to lure Roy to the banquet hall. Or Xykon's plan to lure Roy (who admittedly told Elan to do it) to touch Dorukan's Gate. This particular response is a pattern of Roy's.

Not that Shojo could have known that. The only one that preceded him sending Miko north was in Dorukan's dungeon, which Shojo's diviners couldn't have scried due to Cloister even if they knew to look.

[Ruck]

I see. In that case...

1. Roy did react to some flimsy sending spell message (by a known villain!) with the plan "Just spring the trap". Don't think naivete is of concern, not in this comic.

"By a known villain"-- whoever you're referring to-- is not a point in your favor here, as Roy knows there is an immediate threat to be dealt with as a result of being contacted by a known villain. Roy being contacted by a complete stranger to discuss something in person he can't discuss by sending is not nearly the same thing.

No, you're missing my point: Shojo can send a message, and THEN, if Roy DOES decline, STILL force him via the fake trial.

Jasdoif already covered this.

[Fyraltari]

No, you're missing my point: Shojo can send a message, and THEN, if Roy DOES decline, STILL force him via the fake trial.
Thus Shojo doesn't REALLY offer Roy an opportunity to say no, but IF Roy says YES, Roy does so under the assumption that he COULD have said no, thus keeping Roy in good spirit, which would be preferable as a working condition.

Letting people THINK they choose their own destiny while in reality controlling their behavior if they choose a decision you don't like sounds pretty chaotic rulership to me, you know, just like a Shojo.

But then Shojo wouldn’t have any guarantee against Roy changing his mind, which is the purpose of the trial. On the other hand, if Roy changed his mind, [/he] would have leverage against Shojo, since he could rat his betrayal to the paladin (and he could prove it easily: he knows the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard). Yes we know Roy wouldn’t do that but Shojo doesn’t. Hell since his source of info on Roy was Eugene, it’s borderline miraculous Shojo thought Roy was compétent and trustworthy enough to handle this in any capacity.