Why do people care so much about apparence?

[Mikemical]

Anyway, but does it have to? Why being fit is better than being fat? Not that I'm fat... I'm actually skeletal, but still why? Why the amount of adipose tissue I have makes me a better person?

It makes no sense, that’s like.. Crazy talk! We humans have some really weird values.

Because physical attractiveness is most of the time a rather good giveaway of a person's physical health. A healthy attractive body means healthy genes, and down to instinctual level, we're drawn towards mates which would mother/father healthier children. It's been part of our evolution and it's hard-coded in our brains.

Also, you would be surprised how many benefits you get from regular excercise. I'm not a gym junkie, but I do some crossfit and running, and the endorphines released from excercising will make your mood improve. Coupled with a healthy diet(doesn't mean cutting out junk food entirely, just not having McDonalds/Pizza 5 times a week) you will feel and eventually look better, and people will notice that.

You're sounding like the tumblrinas who dye their armpit hair blue, won't shave off their mustaches, wear shirts that say "You're thinner than me, not prettier" and think that because they feel entitled to landing themselves a Fabio, the world is unfair to them for not giving them a score of Fabios fawning for them and that "THE PARACHUTRIARCHY" is conspiring against them.

You don't need muscles or a cute face, all you need is self confidence and style, YOUR OWN style.

THIS. I used to be a social reject that didn't fit anywhere, pizza-faced nerd, always wore black clothes and listened to metal in my headphones all the time, being all angsty because "nobody understands what it's like to be me", trying to copy whatever trend was popular to "fit in".

Then I grew up, started dressing differently, eating better, doing some actual excercise(regardless how many articles they write saying so, "sexual stimulation/intercourse" is not the same as running 15 minutes in the threadmill), being more open about my opinions, I got some actual friends. Not "people I go to class with and see everyday", but people who would invite me to have a beer at their place, or that I would invite to come to my house for some BBQ and they actually came instead of skipping out on me. I got a girlfriend after I became more confident with myself by pretending I was confident with myself. When I look in the mirror I don't see the angsty teen being all emo because he doesn't have any real friends, I see the person I've been working myself up to be.

[2D8HP]

....I have a co-worker who is extremely vain and people for some reason really love him for that....

That's odd, the guy who most fits that description (vain and a "gym rat") on my crew is very distrusted and has been on stress leave for a year.

The guy who was the most "young, tall, dark, and handsome" on the crew (admittedly not that hard to be since most of us look more like Goblins than Aasimar), was treated badly by our boss, and quit.

Maybe you're just working at the wrong place?

I just want some friends

I vaguely remember feeling that way.

Here some old posts of mine responding to others who were looking for friends:

...Since a lack of time sounds like your biggest impediment I'm not sure any of these suggestions will help, but here's some of what I have spent time doing with people who were neither co-workers or family:

1) Union meetings.
Admittedly some guys at the meetings were former and future co-workers, but few have been current co-workers, and mostly it's been folks I never worked with. I knew one great guy who besides going to Union meetings would also go to a Freemason Lodge near my home, such was his love of being in a "Guild" (being in a sevice club is similar).

2) Volunteering.
I've definitely met people by volunteering for "Habitat for Humanity", and precinct walking.

3) Dungeons & Dragons!
Click here for a
D&D ADVENTURERS LEAGUE regional list, lot's of e-mail address! You should be able to find someone to game with (I'm sure there's an equivalent for Pathfinder).

My experience has been that after leaving high school (I wasn't privileged with a University education), there just simply isn't the freetime to maintain the kind of friendships I had as a youth, but a half-dozen folks at the "Confessions" thread were kind enough to alert me to the fact that other people still find the time!

Good Luck!

For general happiness advice, from at a different thread:I posted this:

...If your looking for advice (you may very well just want the catharsis, of expressing your thoughts), it is well to still pursue relationships (I.e. connections/conversations) with other people, but avoid for now seeking "relationships" (romance).
In fact avoid thinking about your personal happiness much at all.
Instead pretend to take an interest in the well-being of others (collegues, students, grocery store clerks,, street beggers etc).
Ask them how their doing, pretend you care, maybe take a week off and volunteer for something like habitat for humanity.Tell jokes and try to get someone to smile. Do good work. Get outside your head and "fake it till you make it".
Even if you never get very happy, you'll at least have made the world a better place, and you may get some small satisfaction from that. In my experience happiness usually comes when your too busy to look for it.

You've gotten some real good advice on making friends in this thread, but I have a question for you:

Why do you want any?

I know that sounds absurd, but I pretty much have left my "friendship" days behind.

I still have plenty of social interaction with other people, but I don't help anyone move, nor do I expect any help from non-family, and I really don't seek any deeper contact than I already have with my co-workers, or the book-sellers that are my acquaintances.

If you want more conversations there are plenty of activities (just go to some Adventurers League or Pathfinder Society games!), and Habitat for Humanity is fulfilling to volunteer for (admittedly I initially did for Apprentice credit during the last recession).

Plenty of political organizations want your time as well (I used to precinct walk).

But I guess I'm odd in that I'm generally grateful when I can get enough solitude to read, and I find that the more time I spend with people the more likely they're to ask me to unclog a drain or other such task which I try to avoid.

---

....Or should I make up some excuse? Or should I just man up....

Since you wrote, "should I just man up", I'm guessing you're male.

OK, bad news if you're an American:

Maybe because there's a lower floor and a higher ceiling (more American men are homeless, and more American men are billionaires than are American women), but appearance typically makes a bigger difference in income for men than women.

Also appearance makes a bigger difference in whether you will be convicted of a crime.

Both men and women treat both male and female strangers who are regarded as better looking better (taking time to give directions, etc.).

... I'm actually skeletal....

If you want women's attention that's good news!

Most American men think that women are looking for guys that look more like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

They're wrong (American women make the mistake of thinking that guys want women who are fashion model thin, and they're also wrong).

Women typically want guys who look more like David Bowie than a body-builder.

Men seeking men usual do like more musculature though.

Both prefer some facial hair, women usually like short to long stubble, guys full beards.

It's no accident that so many young guys seem to be trying to look like Paul Bunyan ("lumbersexuals").

Wear red.

Back in the 1990's (before I looked like a Goblin), when I walked, women strangers would offer me rides when I wore leather boots or shoes, dark pants, oval sunglasses, and a mostly red plaid shirt.

Get yourself a greatcoat:


(Not for the summer!)

Unfortunately the main way to look attractive to most women is to be tall, and while a few sartorial tricks can help a little bit, there's not much you can do.

Fortunately most women regard the majority of men as not looking attractive.

Manner and voice are more typically more important to women.

Women value intelligence, wit, and sanity more than men usual do.

So think before you talk.

Talk low and slow, without mouth breathimg (if you're not saying something, close your mouth).

A deep voice is important.

Think Sean Connery, James Earl Jomes, Patrick Stewart, and at the extreme Barry White.

Most of these will get you more respect from men as well.

But... men tend to enforce conformity more.

If the guys you work with typically wear football jerseys and knee shorts and you look dapper instead, then expect some hostility (guys are often jerks).

"Why can't I just be myself?"

Well, who are you?

Does looking different change who you are?

[kyoryu]

"Why can't I just be myself?"

Well, who are you?

Does looking different change who you are?

Years ago, I remember talking to a guy on a forum who didn't understand why he needed to cut his hair for a job, since his hair didn't actually matter or change who he was or what he could do.

My response was: "You're absolutely correct. Your hair does not define you, or what you can do, or who you are, and assuming it does is shallow. So, when are you cutting it?"

[The Eye]

Thanks for the support guys, but now I realize that I don't really care about changing myself or making friends, I was only feeling down that day and it was a moment of weakness.

Thanks all, but I’m fine as am I and I won’t have all the hard work of changing myself for people who can’t appreciate me.

[Aliquid]

Thanks for the support guys, but now I realize that I don't really care about changing myself or making friends, I was only feeling down that day and it was a moment of weakness.

Thanks all, but I’m fine as am I and I won’t have all the hard work of changing myself for people who can’t appreciate me.

I had just noticed this morning that we were all rambling on about this subject for a few days without seeing any comments from you. Glad to hear that you are fine now.

[2D8HP]

...I was only feeling down that day and it was a moment of weakness.

Thanks all, but I’m fine as am...

Sometimes you just need to vent (Crom knows I do).

A good rant can help.

Best wishes.

[Delicious Taffy]

And so it ends the way it began. With pointless whining.

[TuggyNE]

Years ago, I remember talking to a guy on a forum who didn't understand why he needed to cut his hair for a job, since his hair didn't actually matter or change who he was or what he could do.

My response was: "You're absolutely correct. Your hair does not define you, or what you can do, or who you are, and assuming it does is shallow. So, when are you cutting it?"

When I first read this, I thought it sounded reasonable enough, but still somehow left a bad taste in my mouth. Then I thought about it some more this afternoon and realized the problem I have with this response: it's telling the person to sell their principles about human worth so they can have a job.

Specifically, someone who objects to a shallow system for valuing people isn't usually [I]just[I] saying that they wish that system wasn't in use, whether because it's irrelevant, inaccurate, or whatever. That would mean that they don't actually care what system is in use, but just consider that particular one to be useless, in which case it would be reasonable enough to jump through some meaningless hoops, check some pointless boxes, and the paperwork's all in order and you start next Monday.

No. They're saying that they wish some better system was in use instead, and not infrequently they actually have such a better system in mind, or can readily explain it. And being forced to take deliberate action to non-verbally express their thorough acceptance of the system they specifically don't agree with, by modifying their own person no less, for no less important a question than "what good is a human anyway", is deeply debasing. Being forced to undergo this because the alternative is just not getting a job doesn't make it any better: it makes the employer abusive, albeit probably unintentionally, and the speaker of such extremely practical advice complicit in enabling the abuse.

One can probably make a decent case that, in fact, no such alternative better system for valuing can reasonably exist, at least not without enormous reworking of massive parts of society. That doesn't fundamentally change the fact that people should be entitled to believe in such systems and work toward them if they choose, nor the tragedy of being forced to abjure beliefs to survive, so anyone offering such remarkably hardheaded counsel should, at the very least, make a strong effort to sympathize.

[Liquor Box]

Because physical attractiveness is most of the time a rather good giveaway of a person's physical health. A healthy attractive body means healthy genes, and down to instinctual level, we're drawn towards mates which would mother/father healthier children. It's been part of our evolution and it's hard-coded in our brains.

Also, you would be surprised how many benefits you get from regular excercise. I'm not a gym junkie, but I do some crossfit and running, and the endorphines released from excercising will make your mood improve. Coupled with a healthy diet(doesn't mean cutting out junk food entirely, just not having McDonalds/Pizza 5 times a week) you will feel and eventually look better, and people will notice that.

You're sounding like the tumblrinas who dye their armpit hair blue, won't shave off their mustaches, wear shirts that say "You're thinner than me, not prettier" and think that because they feel entitled to landing themselves a Fabio, the world is unfair to them for not giving them a score of Fabios fawning for them and that "THE PARACHUTRIARCHY" is conspiring against them.



THIS. I used to be a social reject that didn't fit anywhere, pizza-faced nerd, always wore black clothes and listened to metal in my headphones all the time, being all angsty because "nobody understands what it's like to be me", trying to copy whatever trend was popular to "fit in".

Then I grew up, started dressing differently, eating better, doing some actual excercise(regardless how many articles they write saying so, "sexual stimulation/intercourse" is not the same as running 15 minutes in the threadmill), being more open about my opinions, I got some actual friends. Not "people I go to class with and see everyday", but people who would invite me to have a beer at their place, or that I would invite to come to my house for some BBQ and they actually came instead of skipping out on me. I got a girlfriend after I became more confident with myself by pretending I was confident with myself. When I look in the mirror I don't see the angsty teen being all emo because he doesn't have any real friends, I see the person I've been working myself up to be.

This is a good post.

As you say, attractiveness is partly conforming to the socially accepted definition of good-looking, and partly being confidetn enough that people want to buy whatever it is that you are selling. If you don't think you're attractive, not many others will. Finding it hard to be confident - fake it til you make it.

[thamolas]

I used to be a social reject that didn't fit anywhere, pizza-faced nerd, always wore black clothes and listened to metal in my headphones all the time, being all angsty because "nobody understands what it's like to be me", trying to copy whatever trend was popular to "fit in".

Then I grew up, started dressing differently, eating better, doing some actual excercise(regardless how many articles they write saying so, "sexual stimulation/intercourse" is not the same as running 15 minutes in the threadmill), being more open about my opinions, I got some actual friends. Not "people I go to class with and see everyday", but people who would invite me to have a beer at their place, or that I would invite to come to my house for some BBQ and they actually came instead of skipping out on me. I got a girlfriend after I became more confident with myself by pretending I was confident with myself. When I look in the mirror I don't see the angsty teen being all emo because he doesn't have any real friends, I see the person I've been working myself up to be.

^^This is why personal development is important. Thanks for sharing!

[Delicious Taffy]

Snip

This seems alright, on paper. I have rather long hair, myself, and would probably be a bit chapped if I had to cut most of it off to get a job. The thing, though, is this. While there are some jobs that expect a certain appearance, they're not always the only ones available. If my only option is to work at a fast food joint, sure, I'll absolutely cut my hair for it. It's only hair, after all, and I can grow it back any time. If I have other options, though, and they don't care what my hair looks like, I see no reason to hack it all off if I haven't been asked too. It all depends on what job you're applying for. If you're happy with your appearance and keep applying at places that require you to change it, you're needlessly creating problems for yourself. Just find somewhere else to work, if the option is available. Dress for the job you want, as they say.

[Red Fel]

This seems alright, on paper. I have rather long hair, myself, and would probably be a bit chapped if I had to cut most of it off to get a job. The thing, though, is this. While there are some jobs that expect a certain appearance, they're not always the only ones available. If my only option is to work at a fast food joint, sure, I'll absolutely cut my hair for it. It's only hair, after all, and I can grow it back any time. If I have other options, though, and they don't care what my hair looks like, I see no reason to hack it all off if I haven't been asked too. It all depends on what job you're applying for. If you're happy with your appearance and keep applying at places that require you to change it, you're needlessly creating problems for yourself. Just find somewhere else to work, if the option is available. Dress for the job you want, as they say.

Exactly.

While it seems appalling that you have to "sell your principles to get a job," that's (1) a bit of an exaggeration, and (2) the price of admission. Face facts - nothing in life comes free. You need to give up something. Maybe it's money, maybe it's time, maybe it's energy or effort. And for some jobs, it's a sense of self. You absolutely do surrender certain aspects of your person, at least while on the job, in order to get the higher income, higher job security, and so forth. You miss out on time with family. You go without getting a highly visible tattoo. You avoid long lunches with friends during the day. You're careful what you post on Facebook or Twitter. That's the exchange.

Now, let's step back, because two things. First, unless you have certain religious or cultural views, I'm a bit reluctant to compare haircuts, body art, or attire to "principles." These are things that may be important to you, sure, and are an expression of who you are, but they're not exactly core values central to your person, at least not generally. There are jobs that require you to sell your principles. Jobs which require you to put the company before the client. Jobs which require you to lie for your employer. Jobs which entail being instrumental in the eviction or firing of others. Jobs which require you to say no to people in need. Those are jobs where your principles are tested. Getting a haircut or covering up your tattoos or what-have-you isn't generally like that.

Second, as Taffy points out, it's a voluntary exchange. There are jobs where they don't care about these things. There are jobs that don't care about your hair or tattoos, that don't care about your Facebook posts or whether you drink during the day. There are jobs where, because you're working part-time or flex-schedule, you can spend more time with your family - but you're probably not earning as much, or a pension, or benefits. There are jobs where you don't have to wear a suit every day, but you're probably not earning suit-job money. It's an exchange, and if other options are available to you, it's an exchange you can take or leave.

There are people who don't even realize it. I've read articles about high-power executives, lawyers, accountants, who don't even realize the exchange has happened. They give more and more of themselves to the firm, lose more and more freedom and time with family, and in exchange receive higher salary, bigger benefits, a nicer office, more respect and esteem in the organization, and they don't understand that. They go to therapists and say that they wish that they could have more time to see their kids, time to relax on the beach, vacation, something. They don't realize that all they have to do is give up the benefits. All they have to do is talk to their higher-ups about cutting their hours, or even leave the firm and join a smaller practice with less work to be done. They don't see it, because they never saw the exchange happening - from their perspective, it simply happened.

But it is always an exchange. Always. We give up pieces of ourselves to get what we want in the world. Maybe it's a haircut. Maybe it's a friendship. Maybe it's poker night. Maybe it's little Sally's recital. Everything is an exchange, everything a cost-benefit analysis. And the line falls where you say it does, not where anyone else says.

And if you say, "My hair defines me, I won't cut it for a job," that's your choice. That's where you've drawn the line. But you cannot then complain about the opportunities you have rejected for that reason. If I choose to walk instead of drive my car, I can't complain when I get to my destination late; if I choose to drive a fancy car instead of an economy car, I can't complain about the cost. I made my choices, I saw what was important to me and I paid the cost. That's life.

[Scarlet Knight]

True story: my pharmacy hired a kid who dressed Goth. "Why would you hire him?" I asked. "Well", said the director, "He seemed ok, and really wanted the job. I didn't want to judge him, since I was a hippie when I was young. Besides, I feel no drug user in his right mind would expect to be hired dressed like that!"

He was fired in a month when caught on camera stealing drugs.

We ignored the hood of the cobra and got bit.

[Delicious Taffy]

True story: my pharmacy hired a kid who dressed Goth. "Why would you hire him?" I asked. "Well", said the director, "He seemed ok, and really wanted the job. I didn't want to judge him, since I was a hippie when I was young. Besides, I feel no drug user in his right mind would expect to be hired dressed like that!"

He was fired in a month when caught on camera stealing drugs.

We ignored the hood of the cobra and got bit.

There are just some jobs you don't hire certain types of people for. If I go to pick up a prescription, I'm not expecting to see a Goth kid handling my pills. That's a look I associate with aimless rebellion and a general disregard for structure, and that's not the kind of person I'd want handling something as touchy as prescription drugs. I expect a pharmacist to at least look reasonably tidy, like they've put some obvious effort into looking clean. This is why I mentioned the "Dress for the job you want" guideline. If you wouldn't hire someone who looks and dresses the way you do for a certain job, don't expect anyone else to do the same.

For example, I have long hair, a goatee, and a mustache, and tend to dress in a very casual manner. Logo tees, dark jeans, and boots are the order of the day, and I'll frequently add a necklace, hat, or light jacket to that. When you picture that outfit, what sort of job would you assume I have, just based on the appearance? Unless you assume I just dress differently off the job, which you have no real reason to do, it's probably not a very fancy profession you're thinking of. You probably aren't picturing me in an office, restaurant, or bank, and you'd be right not to. Now, add a goofy, awkward demeanor, an odd sense of humor, and manner of speech containing probably excessive profanities. Is that a person you'd expect in any of the aforementioned professions? If I had to deal with me handling my food, paperwork, or money, I'd be very wary indeed. That's just how things are, and there's not really a problem with that.

If you can't separate your casual appearance from your professional one, that's on you. There are no rules saying you can't dress like you're about to hit the basketball court with the guys, when you're not putting in your 8 hours at Denny's. But once your shift starts, those shorts and that tank top had better be switched out for slacks and a polo, or you're not long for the job. And this is all just for an employment situation, without even beginning to get into things like dating, networking, and all manner of other scenarios.

Honestly, a workplace dress code is one of the simpler ways your appearance will affect your life, since it's very cut-and-dry. "Here's how we expect you to dress, look, and behave in this establishment. Now take this name tag and get to it." One you're off work, the rules change from one person to the next. Terry might think your detached, scruffy demeanor adds a nice degree of realism to the group's expectations. Marie, on the other hand, might think you're a total pill and need to do something about that patchy neckbeard of yours. Neither one is less valid than the other, but if you're expecting both to react the same way, you're on another planet. If you're fine with the way you look, behave, and carry yourself, find a niche you fit into naturally. Don't gripe about everyone else not letting you into theirs.

[TuggyNE]

Exactly.

While it seems appalling that you have to "sell your principles to get a job," that's (1) a bit of an exaggeration, and (2) the price of admission. Face facts - nothing in life comes free. You need to give up something. Maybe it's money, maybe it's time, maybe it's energy or effort. And for some jobs, it's a sense of self. You absolutely do surrender certain aspects of your person, at least while on the job, in order to get the higher income, higher job security, and so forth. You miss out on time with family. You go without getting a highly visible tattoo. You avoid long lunches with friends during the day. You're careful what you post on Facebook or Twitter. That's the exchange.

Now, let's step back, because two things. First, unless you have certain religious or cultural views, I'm a bit reluctant to compare haircuts, body art, or attire to "principles." These are things that may be important to you, sure, and are an expression of who you are, but they're not exactly core values central to your person, at least not generally. There are jobs that require you to sell your principles. Jobs which require you to put the company before the client. Jobs which require you to lie for your employer. Jobs which entail being instrumental in the eviction or firing of others. Jobs which require you to say no to people in need. Those are jobs where your principles are tested. Getting a haircut or covering up your tattoos or what-have-you isn't generally like that.

Second, as Taffy points out, it's a voluntary exchange. There are jobs where they don't care about these things. There are jobs that don't care about your hair or tattoos, that don't care about your Facebook posts or whether you drink during the day. There are jobs where, because you're working part-time or flex-schedule, you can spend more time with your family - but you're probably not earning as much, or a pension, or benefits. There are jobs where you don't have to wear a suit every day, but you're probably not earning suit-job money. It's an exchange, and if other options are available to you, it's an exchange you can take or leave.

There are people who don't even realize it. I've read articles about high-power executives, lawyers, accountants, who don't even realize the exchange has happened. They give more and more of themselves to the firm, lose more and more freedom and time with family, and in exchange receive higher salary, bigger benefits, a nicer office, more respect and esteem in the organization, and they don't understand that. They go to therapists and say that they wish that they could have more time to see their kids, time to relax on the beach, vacation, something. They don't realize that all they have to do is give up the benefits. All they have to do is talk to their higher-ups about cutting their hours, or even leave the firm and join a smaller practice with less work to be done. They don't see it, because they never saw the exchange happening - from their perspective, it simply happened.

But it is always an exchange. Always. We give up pieces of ourselves to get what we want in the world. Maybe it's a haircut. Maybe it's a friendship. Maybe it's poker night. Maybe it's little Sally's recital. Everything is an exchange, everything a cost-benefit analysis. And the line falls where you say it does, not where anyone else says.

And if you say, "My hair defines me, I won't cut it for a job," that's your choice. That's where you've drawn the line. But you cannot then complain about the opportunities you have rejected for that reason. If I choose to walk instead of drive my car, I can't complain when I get to my destination late; if I choose to drive a fancy car instead of an economy car, I can't complain about the cost. I made my choices, I saw what was important to me and I paid the cost. That's life.

I do (shockingly) agree with all this. It is one's own choice to sell principles; sometimes they aren't worth much, after all. And the expression of hair specifically is pretty lightweight.

The problem I had came down to two things, really; first was that this anonymous advised person was talking about how they valued themselves (and presumably others, and vice versa), which I consider to potentially be a fairly important principle. And second was that the post I responded to was specifically trying to downplay this trade to such an extent, and indeed almost shaming the person for being hesitant and disliking the unpleasant choice they had, as though they shouldn't ever even consider the tradeoff, as though any job would be worth making such a trade without any hesitation.

Obviously, if your values conflict (such as your value of money and your value of how humans are valued) you'll have to make a choice. A post just dismissing one of those two sides out of hand, as though the anonymous advisee's values were completely irrelevant (because of course they should value money, and all that other stuff? Pooh pooh!), is what I found so obnoxious.

[factotum]

Unless you assume I just dress differently off the job, which you have no real reason to do

Um...why not? Dressing differently while working and while at home is totally what most people do. Business people don't lounge around on the beach in three-piece suits and ties when they're on holiday, for example.

[Aedilred]

This seems alright, on paper. I have rather long hair, myself, and would probably be a bit chapped if I had to cut most of it off to get a job. The thing, though, is this. While there are some jobs that expect a certain appearance, they're not always the only ones available. If my only option is to work at a fast food joint, sure, I'll absolutely cut my hair for it. It's only hair, after all, and I can grow it back any time.

Alas, I thought that when I cut my hair in order to facilitate employment. Ten years on, I couldn't grow it back even if my job situation allowed it. Beware! Make the most of it while you can!

Um...why not? Dressing differently while working and while at home is totally what most people do. Business people don't lounge around on the beach in three-piece suits and ties when they're on holiday, for example.

Well there was that time with Gordon Brown...

But otherwise, yes, I agree. While casual workplace attire is becoming increasingly normal (depending on field), wearing something different at work from home is to be expected, I think.

[kyoryu]

When I first read this, I thought it sounded reasonable enough, but still somehow left a bad taste in my mouth. Then I thought about it some more this afternoon and realized the problem I have with this response: it's telling the person to sell their principles about human worth so they can have a job.

Not at all.

It's saying that you can't simultaneously claim that your hair is unimportant and doesn't define you or your worth, and then immediately claim that your hair utterly defines you and you can't cut it.

Either it matters, and it's as statement, or it's not. Pick one.

The problem I had came down to two things, really; first was that this anonymous advised person was talking about how they valued themselves (and presumably others, and vice versa), which I consider to potentially be a fairly important principle. And second was that the post I responded to was specifically trying to downplay this trade to such an extent, and indeed almost shaming the person for being hesitant and disliking the unpleasant choice they had, as though they shouldn't ever even consider the tradeoff, as though any job would be worth making such a trade without any hesitation.

Actually, he thought it was a really good point, and it made him think. This wasn't a random anonymous person, but someone I had talked to a number of times on a particular forum.

Also, FWIW, I've had long hair for a good chunk of my adult life.

Also, IIRC, the actual comment was less "so when are you cutting it" and more "so, then it shouldn't be a big deal to cut it, right?" It wasn't "you should do this", but really "clearly, you're saying that hair is important, so why can't it be important to both sides?"

[Bohandas]

Assuming you're not talking about anything that could be a clear sign of contagious disease or having just murdered somebody) People care about appearance because deep down, in the lower areas of out brains, we are still beasts

[Donnadogsoth]

Odd when people who go out of their way to dress abnormally complain when they get treated abnormally. It's as if they expect their abnormal fashion choices should be accepted as normal, when, if they were accepted as normal, it would defeat the point of dressing that way and so they would have to dress even more extremely for effect, while still expressing umbrage over incurring negative reactions to their abnormality.

[tensai_oni]

Odd when people who go out of their way to dress abnormally complain when they get treated abnormally. It's as if they expect their abnormal fashion choices should be accepted as normal, when, if they were accepted as normal, it would defeat the point of dressing that way and so they would have to dress even more extremely for effect, while still expressing umbrage over incurring negative reactions to their abnormality.

What makes you think that people dress "abnormally" because they want to be treated as weird outcasts, as opposed to because that's what they like and feel comfortable with?

Strange choice of words by the way. Do you consider something like wearing black leather to be abnormal and that it shouldn't be accepted as normal by polite society? Long hair on a man? Short hair on a woman? Or perhaps, a woman wearing trousers and not a skirt?

More generally, this thread's new topic really shows how quick to judge others and tell them to conform people on this forum are. As long as you are hygienic and neat, and more importantly - behave in a professional manner, it shouldn't matter how you look like. This even includes the example of a goth or emo kid selling you medicine. I'd sooner take one if they behave charmingly polite and like they know what they're talking about, over someone who looks like a stereotypical professional doctor but clearly doesn't give a damn.

And yes, the sad truth is, there are people who will judge you by looks alone. Quite a lot of them, in fact.

But just because they exist doesn't mean it's a good thing, or that it should be spread further.

[Kalmageddon]

What makes you think that people dress "abnormally" because they want to be treated as weird outcasts, as opposed to because that's what they like and feel comfortable with?
.

Special snowflake syndrome.
And of course they don't want to be treated like social outcasts, they want the approval of their social circle, while also being weird enough as to get the occasional disapproving look from those outside of it because, hey, if someone bothers to oppose you it must mean your statements (fashion or otherwise) have weight.
People are shallow like that.

[kyoryu]

I'm not telling anyone to conform - I'd be a hyprocrite if I did so, given that I had long hair a good part of my adult life.

What I'm saying is simple: One of the following must be true:

A) What you wear and how you present yourself doesn't matter and doesn't reflect on who you are, in which case changing it should be no big deal to you.

B) What you wear and how you present yourself *does* matter, in which case it's reasonable for other people to take that as information about you and at least partially make decisions based on that.

In other words, either you believe your appearance reflects on you and your choices contain useful information, or you don't. But if you believe your appearance is meaningful, you need to accept that others find it meaningful as well.

[Donnadogsoth]

What makes you think that people dress "abnormally" because they want to be treated as weird outcasts, as opposed to because that's what they like and feel comfortable with?

Strange choice of words by the way. Do you consider something like wearing black leather to be abnormal and that it shouldn't be accepted as normal by polite society? Long hair on a man? Short hair on a woman? Or perhaps, a woman wearing trousers and not a skirt?

More generally, this thread's new topic really shows how quick to judge others and tell them to conform people on this forum are. As long as you are hygienic and neat, and more importantly - behave in a professional manner, it shouldn't matter how you look like. This even includes the example of a goth or emo kid selling you medicine. I'd sooner take one if they behave charmingly polite and like they know what they're talking about, over someone who looks like a stereotypical professional doctor but clearly doesn't give a damn.

And yes, the sad truth is, there are people who will judge you by looks alone. Quite a lot of them, in fact.

But just because they exist doesn't mean it's a good thing, or that it should be spread further.

Why would someone wear black leather if wearing it didn't mean anything? If all fashion choices became equal tomorrow, some people might wear black leather just for the hell of it, but, black leather wouldn't mean anything, it wouldn't have any resonance or allusions such as strong, tough, rebellious, possibly Satanic or biker gang associated, carnivore, don't-mess-with-me attitude, etc. If black leather didn't mean any of that, most people who wear black leather today wouldn't wear black leather.

People who dress to extremes are doing so largely for effect. They're making a "fashion statement". And, they're fools if they then turn around and bitch about being treated differently, because odds are they wouldn't dress that way if their fashion choice didn't provoke. "Oh I've gotta be me" should be weighed against "You're a freak and make people uncomfortable with your senselessly provocative wardrobe".

Look what happened with piercings. Started out with boys getting their ears pierced. Then that wasn't enough, so people got this pierced and that pierced. By now, people are getting their noses cut off and horns implanted in their heads to try to get a rise out of the squares. And when that doesn't work anymore, if they can they'll get their entire head pierced so it looks like they're got a metal carrying handle coming out of their skull. And then when people get used to that freakishness, what's next? Permanently walking around on fire? Their face and genitals switched places?

I used to dress strangely, and I felt that foolish resentment at others not respecting my strangeness. This sort of feeling is really foolish because it pretends that all fashion choices should be equal, which of course destroys the meaning of fashion. If I were born with a portwine stain on my face that might be cause for pleas of tolerance, but wearing corpsepaint and black leather to a job interview at a McDonald's might not.

[Red Fel]

*SNIP*

Ehh... This particular thought pattern goes to some fairly dark places. It feels like you're saying, "Why would you dress like that if you didn't want to be thought of in a certain way?" And that thought has some unpleasant connotations.

Here's a reason: Maybe how people think of me when I dress a certain way never plays into my calculus, because I don't care. Maybe I dress that way because I like the colors or the fabrics, because it's comfortable, because I find it empowering. Maybe I'm not doing it for any attention from you; maybe I don't care to who or what you pay attention.

There are a lot of reasons to wear leather, not all of them having to do with what a spectator thinks. There are a lot of reasons to wear black, same. Ergo, there are reasons to wear black leather that have nothing to do with what a spectator thinks.

Let's say I go out one night, clubbing or what have you, wearing a three-piece black suit, red shirt, black tie. Am I automatically doing it to get attention? Maybe I love dressing up in a three-piece suit; it makes me feel sharp and classy. Maybe I love the mix of red and black; the black is slimming and the red makes me feel powerful. What do I care what you think? Why should it "mean" anything what I'm wearing? I'm wearing it because I like it, it feels comfortable and makes me feel great. I'm not doing it for any effect on you.

You hip to my jive, Jackson?

[warty goblin]

I'm not telling anyone to conform - I'd be a hyprocrite if I did so, given that I had long hair a good part of my adult life.

What I'm saying is simple: One of the following must be true:

A) What you wear and how you present yourself doesn't matter and doesn't reflect on who you are, in which case changing it should be no big deal to you.

B) What you wear and how you present yourself *does* matter, in which case it's reasonable for other people to take that as information about you and at least partially make decisions based on that.

In other words, either you believe your appearance reflects on you and your choices contain useful information, or you don't. But if you believe your appearance is meaningful, you need to accept that others find it meaningful as well.

Or I wear what I wear because it's a reasonable trade off of comfort, social acceptability and cost. Being told to change is almost certainly going to decrease my comfort, increase my social acceptability, and cost me money. Because I'm a crazy individualist that way, I don't like spending more money to be less comfortable.

[Delicious Taffy]

X2 Snip Chain

I was about to respond in a similar fashion. When the weather permits it, I'll put on black jeans, a black or brown logo tee, and my signature black leather jacket, slick sunglasses optional. I don't do it because I'm trying to look like a strong, tough, rebellious, carnivore from a Satanic biker club. I do it because it makes me look incredibly cool, to myself and to my close companions. If it makes me look like part of a biker club, all the better, because the clubs in this area are generally viewed as a positive influence on the community.

But I'm not doing it for you. When I put on my trademark narrow shades, I'm not doing it to impress anyone but myself. The logo on my shirt is not there to ensure you feel offended and outraged. The tenebrous denim of my jeans is not worn in the hopes that you'll associate me with a mythological king of the underworld. I never put on my black leather jacket intending for you to see it and think "This man wants to be viewed as an outcast." The only "statement" I'm making when I put on that outfit is "I enjoy the way I look in this outfit."

It doesn't have a ****ing thing to do with you.

[2D8HP]

As I said during my long previous post:

...men tend to enforce conformity more.

If the guys you work with typically wear...

During the last recession (so 2009-ish), I took a class at my union's training center on "orbital tube welding" (something that's typically done in semi-conductor chip plants), and I quickly figured out that there was no need for me to wear the dirty tool filled overalls I wear most of my waking hours in that class.

I keeped the work boots on but instead of denim I wore my most comfortable clothes which is a cotton shirt and some wool tailored slacks that fit well, and consequently are my most comfortable pants.

I caught so much grief.

"You look like a banker, what's wrong with you?"

The grief wasn't worth it.

I kept the cotton shirt (I wasn't going to be pushed around that much), but I went back to wearing the denim jeans, that I seem to be forever cursed to wear.

I would prefer to work around women, as they let you dress as comfortable or as sharp as you want, instead of the stupid jeans, t-shirts, and "hoodies" that peer pressure forces us into.

If the clothes are "casual" why are they less comfortable?

My "special occasion" (weddings and funerals) clothes feel better against my skin.

Down with casual!

[Donnadogsoth]

Ehh... This particular thought pattern goes to some fairly dark places. It feels like you're saying, "Why would you dress like that if you didn't want to be thought of in a certain way?" And that thought has some unpleasant connotations.

Here's a reason: Maybe how people think of me when I dress a certain way never plays into my calculus, because I don't care. Maybe I dress that way because I like the colors or the fabrics, because it's comfortable, because I find it empowering. Maybe I'm not doing it for any attention from you; maybe I don't care to who or what you pay attention.

There are a lot of reasons to wear leather, not all of them having to do with what a spectator thinks. There are a lot of reasons to wear black, same. Ergo, there are reasons to wear black leather that have nothing to do with what a spectator thinks.

Let's say I go out one night, clubbing or what have you, wearing a three-piece black suit, red shirt, black tie. Am I automatically doing it to get attention? Maybe I love dressing up in a three-piece suit; it makes me feel sharp and classy. Maybe I love the mix of red and black; the black is slimming and the red makes me feel powerful. What do I care what you think? Why should it "mean" anything what I'm wearing? I'm wearing it because I like it, it feels comfortable and makes me feel great. I'm not doing it for any effect on you.

You hip to my jive, Jackson?

You are a social animal and what clothing means to you is at least in part a function of what signals that clothing is sending to others. If you think an outfit or accoutrement is "cool" that's partly because that coolness is recognised by others around you. It's a fallacy to think "I'm only dressing for myself!"--what you like to wear is itself partly socially determined. Thousand to one odds you don't dress in ways the general population thinks are hideous.

[kyoryu]

What's also interesting is that "socially acceptable" changes drastically based on environment.

I work in the game industry. If I showed up for an interview in a suit and tie... it would not necessarily be a good thing. Even most non-gaming tech jobs, that's not super awesome.

Appropriate wear to a biker bar is not the same as appropriate wear to work at a bank (RUBs aside). Wearing either of them to the opposite is a... not-very-subtle way of telling them that you really don't care about respecting them.