OOTS #1180 - The Discussion Thread

[Particle_Man]

Redcloak can seriously quickly kill a bunch of lower level people. Look a the cleric flamestrikes that occurred in Firmament: Redcloak is way higher level than Durkon, Durkula and Hilgya (and is wearing an artefact level magic item to boot). He may not be Epic, but he's one level below Epic, and that's still enough to ensure that Everyone-Attack-Redcloak is not a much better plan than Everyone-Attack-Xykon.

That said, it is possible that Durkon's plan will turn Redcloak vs. Xykon (I mean, Redcloak is already prepared to betray Xykon anyhow if necessary and Durkon's plan might make Redcloak/The Dark One's interests no longer coincide with Xykon's continued existence.

I would put Minrah as more Wesley on the Buffy team. A late addition, but pretty useful, and possibly portable to a spin off storyline.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I don't remember it working that way on Birds of Prey back in the day. Granted, I was there more for kung fu chick action back in my less enlightened mode. If there's newer shows on the subject, I would appreciate the reference (I kind of tuned out on TV a while ago).

[The MunchKING]

I don't know what's worse, that you think a show explicitly based entirely upon relationships is a good analogy or that you apparently think any show with a female cast would also be solely relationship-based.

Maybe not SOLEY Relationship-based, but I have trouble thinking of any show off the top of my head where the main cast was female and there wasn't a strong emphasis on relationships.

Even Korra, which billed itself as an action adventure plot spent the whole first season with a strong "whose Korra going to date" subtheme. And then as soon as she got out of the dating scene it was Bolin. Or Tenzin's relationships with his family. Or whatever.

I'm not saying it's BAD, but I am saying that they are relationship-focused.

[Peelee]

Maybe not SOLEY Relationship-based, but I have trouble thinking of any show off the top of my head where the main cast was female and there wasn't a strong emphasis on relationships.

Even Korra, which billed itself as an action adventure plot spent the whole first season with a strong "whose Korra going to date" subtheme. And then as soon as she got out of the dating scene it was Bolin. Or Tenzin's relationships with his family. Or whatever.

I'm not saying it's BAD, but I am saying that they are relationship-focused.

When any male character was introduced on Korra, did you think "will she get with this one?"

I never saw that series, but IIRC Ang also had subplots on his relationship status; it seems pretty standardized for a teenager character, with all the changes and hormones and being attracted to others much more so than the previous years.

[BasiliskSoldier]

I would put Minrah as more Wesley on the Buffy team. A late addition, but pretty useful, and possibly portable to a spin off storyline.

Wasn't Wesley like, completely useless (to the point of actively making things worse) until he made the jump over to Angel?

Also, Wesley showed up midway through Season 3, well before the half-way point on the show, hardly a late-game addition. Are you thinking of a different character here?

Maybe not SOLELY Relationship-based, but I have trouble thinking of any show off the top of my head where the main cast was female and there wasn't a strong emphasis on relationships.

Again, the argument was that it might not be a great sign when the first jump for 'primarily female show' is 'has a primary focus on romantic drama'.

Even Korra, which billed itself as an action adventure plot spent the whole first season with a strong "whose Korra going to date" subtheme. And then as soon as she got out of the dating scene it was Bolin. Or Tenzin's relationships with his family. Or whatever.

Korra's love triangle was god-awful and the show improved itself vastly when it finally got around to ditching it.

Additionally, familial relationships =/= romantic relationships, they aren't equivalent. And a small romantic sub-plot or two is different from a full on love-triangle that takes center stage.

When any male character was introduced on Korra, did you think "will she get with this one?"

The answer is no, for the most part.

For most of the first two seasons it looked like she was set-up to end up with Mako, then the writers realized that was not a good idea, and then it pivoted to 'probably not going to end up with anyone' in the third and then she ended up with Asami in the fourth.

But generally when a new male character was introduced people weren't saying "oh, he's a romantic interest". That wasn't really happening outside of dedicated shipper communities and even then mostly in the realm of slash-fic.

[Sky_Schemer]

Concerning Minrah being someone's love interest in addition of her own character, i'd like to point out that Hilgya is the one who raised that hypothesis first.

Completely different context. The point of that line was to inform the reader, in no uncertain terms, how Hilgya was feeling after having shared an intimate moment with Durkon, being immediately rejected, and then becoming a single mom. Hilgya, rationally or not, saw Durkon as a callous, manipulating womanizer.

The point of it was not to get readers to explore the coupling potential of new side characters. She wasn't raising it as a hypothesis. She was making a snap judgement based on a bad assumption, extrapolating from her own experience.

[monomer]

So this is 1180 +1, so does it mean this is #1180 or is it #1181?!
SO MANY QUESTIONS!

The Strip Number is 1180, and the Strip Title is "+1".

When you are invited to a large party (think more along the lines of a function or a wedding, not a house party with friends), the invitation usually includes a +1 so you can bring along a guest. In this case, Minrah is the +1 joining the party who wasn't on the original guest list.

[Schroeswald]

It's like when the Brady Bunch added cousin Oliver.

Change My Mind.


.

People like Minrah (I recognize you don’t, but generally the response to her has been positive), she’s not being added for any relatability, people like her, she’s not much younger than the main cast, people like her, she does more than be precocious, and finally people like her (I have seen two people express any dislike of her, a few people are worried about what she’d do but so far she is a popular character).

[Petrocorus]

That said, it is possible that Durkon's plan will turn Redcloak vs. Xykon (I mean, Redcloak is already prepared to betray Xykon anyhow if necessary and Durkon's plan might make Redcloak/The Dark One's interests no longer coincide with Xykon's continued existence.

I am much curious about how Durkon/The Order will try to contact Redcloak and convince him to talk to the Dark One. Or just convince him to listen to them for starters.
And how will they do this without Xykon noticing it.

I don't think a simple Sending spell will do. I wonder if in the OotSverse, people around the target of a Sending can see or hear it, it seems unclear to me. I think it's not the case under 3.5 rules.

[Schroeswald]

I am much curious about how Durkon/The Order will try to contact Redcloak and convince him to talk to the Dark One. Or just convince him to listen to them for starters.
And how will they do this without Xykon noticing it.

I don't think a simple Sending spell will do. I wonder if in the OotSverse, people around the target of a Sending can see or hear it, it seems unclear to me. I think it's not the case under 3.5 rules.

They can’t, we’ve seen it several times, Roy couldn’t see Julia till she cast her sending, only Roy saw Durkon, and only Roy saw Greg.

[D.One]

The Strip Number is 1180, and the Strip Title is "+1".

When you are invited to a large party (think more along the lines of a function or a wedding, not a house party with friends), the invitation usually includes a +1 so you can bring along a guest. In this case, Minrah is the +1 joining the party who wasn't on the original guest list.

And yet, when I saw the title, I wondered if I had missed not one, but two strips, and the Giant had for some reason titled the #1181 as "1180+1". Of course I perceived it was not the case later.

Edit:

PS: I wonder if Neutralize Poison cures drunkenness...

[CriticalFailure]

Some of the speculation seems to be implying that shunting off a female character into a gay romance is automatically non-problematic because of representation, no matter how little sense it makes, while having a straight romance would automatically be problematic. I really have a hard time seeing how Minrah+Bandana could make any sense and happen without treating Minrah as a side accessory for a side character who is less important and less notable than she is.

[MossyMeow]

After having some time to mull it over, I actually like Minrah x Bandana more, not less. I definitely see why it could be interpreted as empty representation, but I think it would work as a cute, fun side romance - more Kazumi and Daigo than Haley and Elan.

Minrah is a bluntly honest, somewhat goofy character who, despite her silliness, has her head on straight. Most of her humor comes from her stating the obvious in a roundabout way, or from the occasional bursts of giddy excitement. She's very much a dwarf, in all their lovable lawfulness, but she isn't as uptight as Durkon. Bandana might be chaotic, but she is also very driven and hardworking. She knows what she wants and works hard to get it. Much like Minrah, she's honest and doesn't beat around the bush. I honestly think these two could have an enjoyable dynamic as a couple. I friendship it, at the very least.

[Mightymosy]

I don't know what's worse, that you think a show explicitly based entirely upon relationships is a good analogy or that you apparently think any show with a female cast would also be solely relationship-based.

Errm......where did I SAY that any show with a female cast should be solely relationship based?

Seriously, what's up with that dude??


To answer your question what's worse:
The worst is when MODS put words in your mouth. I tell you that feels suppressive.

[gatemansgc]

i do hope durkon will still have the hammer of thunderbolts for the final book, last it was seen was left in the council of clans.

[BasiliskSoldier]

Some of the speculation seems to be implying that shunting off a female character into a gay romance is automatically non-problematic because of representation, no matter how little sense it makes, while having a straight romance would automatically be problematic. I really have a hard time seeing how Minrah+Bandana could make any sense and happen without treating Minrah as a side accessory for a side character who is less important and less notable than she is.

Considering that I'm the only one who's really brought it up, I can say that was not my thinking.

I don't think Durkon/Minrah will happen because it wouldn't make sense with either character. Durkon's a father now, and his subplot with Hilgya would need to be resolved first, I honestly don't think Durkon is the type to have a romance while the fate of the world is at stake, and I think Minrah deserves better than just being a rebound. The straightness of the pairing isn't the problem, making it a gay romance wouldn't fix anything, I think these characters aren't suited for a romantic plotline, at least not in the time the comic has left.

The reason I think Bandana/Minrah might happen is effectively just because I could see it happening. Both are single, they'd probably have a fun dynamic and a couple secondary characters (of I would argue equal importance) having a romance would be a good subplot to balance out the high stakes of the final book. I do not think it will happen, but I don't think it's out of the question and I don't think it'd be jarring or out of character.

After having some time to mull it over, I actually like Minrah x Bandana more, not less. I definitely see why it could be interpreted as empty representation, but I think it would work as a cute, fun side romance - more Kazumi and Daigo than Haley and Elan.

Minrah is a bluntly honest, somewhat goofy character who, despite her silliness, has her head on straight. Most of her humor comes from her stating the obvious in a roundabout way, or from the occasional bursts of giddy excitement. She's very much a dwarf, in all their lovable lawfulness, but she isn't as uptight as Durkon. Bandana might be chaotic, but she is also very driven and hardworking. She knows what she wants and works hard to get it. Much like Minrah, she's honest and doesn't beat around the bush. I honestly think these two could have an enjoyable dynamic as a couple. I friendship it, at the very least.

This more or less.

Again, I'm really not arguing that it's going to happen, I just think it's more likely than Minrah/Durkon.

[bunsen_h]

I am much curious about how Durkon/The Order will try to contact Redcloak and convince him to talk to the Dark One. Or just convince him to listen to them for starters.
And how will they do this without Xykon noticing it.

Someone breaks into Xykon's "secret" fortress, which he believes contains his phylactery, and trips the alarms. Xykon instantly drops whatever he's doing and goes as quickly as he can to check on the situation.

[Peelee]

Errm......where did I SAY that any show with a female cast should be solely relationship based?

Here:

But seriously, what do you think happens when people discuss such events in shows with female cast?

"Such events" is a new person being introduced. "What happens" is, apparently, immediately going straight to, "so who do you think they'll hook up with?"

If you don't want to own your own words, that's fine, but I can still point out what those words are saying.

The worst is when MODS put words in your mouth. I tell you that feels suppressive.

Black text, I'm a normal poster in this discussion right now. Mod hat only gets put on when someone violates the Forum Rules. That's not happening here, so I don't see why you're treating my disagreement differently than anyone else's. Someone could make a new account right now and say what I just said and that would hold the same weight. Mods don't have special "you're wrong" powers.

[Frozenstep]

I think it's like, a sub-10% chance (as opposed to Durkon/Minrah, which is sub-1% in my eyes)

Below 1%? Could that possibly mean a one-in-a-million chance?

No but really, there's little stopping the OOTS from heading right for Xykon right now, but I feel like there'll be a wrench thrown into that plan. The nature of that wrench might not leave any time/room for another romantic subplot.

[Mike Havran]

That stuff Belkar is imbibing looks like some Belgian bruin. No wonder they are getting blitzed so quickly.

[Fyraltari]

1. Problem is MOST series default to male biased casts, making it difficult to find an example
Lots of authors often use female casts only if they need to...

Within the context of this argument that's purely your problem.

2. Are any of the people of the "Laurin incident" participating in the current forum thread?

Irrelevant, this was meant as an example of the forum's culture (and what it says of nerd culture in general). Personnally I would have gone with a more recent one but I guess this one was more striking.

3. Ok so I missed that one, honestly: Who said Minrah would ONLY stay in the story if she was a love interest?

That is not what I meant. People are using wether she would be a match for one of the main characters as an argument for or against her staying in the book. This discussion would not be had if she was male. nobody wondered wether Hinjo would date Vaarsuvius, for example.

4. Of course fictional characters don't have free will.
What I mean is writing them as if they had one. Write them as *persons*

That's a pipe-dream. side characters can only get so complex, Minrah's personality so far is "dutiful, upbeat, kind of awkward and brave" that doesn't help decide her relationship status. You can't expect the author to whip out a complicated backstory and full psychological profile of each character who gets a minimum of screen-time. For example Bandana has had as much panel-time as Minrah (guessing here) and her having a female ex was not born out of her personnality but because The Giant wanted 1) More queer representation and 2) Haley to have an excuse to get access to new clothes.

Also what Schroeswald said.

Mr, Fyrtalirwho
[...]
Fytalirho (figure the best way to not mess up his name is to purposely get it wrong every time right!)

No.

[Baywolfe]

PS: I wonder if Neutralize Poison cures drunkenness...

It used to, Lesser Restoration as well.

[Schroeswald]

<snip, I agree with all this, and a more recent example would be the speculation that Andi would get with Roy or Bandana with Haley based on the fact that they seems to be friendly>
No.

K, I’ll stick with Fyraltari then.

[The MunchKING]

When any male character was introduced on Korra, did you think "will she get with this one?"

Kind of. I mean the Internet collectively seemed to. At least any of them in her age bracket.

I never saw that series, but IIRC Ang also had subplots on his relationship status; it seems pretty standardized for a teenager character, with all the changes and hormones and being attracted to others much more so than the previous years.

Well yeah, fair. she was 16, IIRC so had that whole trying to deal with people thing.

Korra's love triangle was god-awful and the show improved itself vastly when it finally got around to ditching it.

Additionally, familial relationships =/= romantic relationships, they aren't equivalent.

Peelee said "Relationship" so I commented on "Relationships". *shrug*

The answer is no, for the most part.

But generally when a new male character was introduced people weren't saying "oh, he's a romantic interest". That wasn't really happening outside of dedicated shipper communities and even then mostly in the realm of slash-fic.

Hmmmmm… Maybe I just hang out in shippier places then.

They can’t, we’ve seen it several times, Roy couldn’t see Julia till she cast her sending, only Roy saw Durkon, and only Roy saw Greg.

Belkar even lampshaded it with "I don't know what just happened, but I feel a sudden urge to help you come up with 25 synonyms for 'buffoon'."

[Erys]

Lower-left corner of 983; Durkon decided to become a cleric so he could cast regenerate himself, after earning enough money to have someone else cast it started to look doubtful.

Appreciate that.

Yeah, that might have motivated Durkon as a child, when he didn't know any of the story about his mothers arm. He just saw mom was injured, that clerics could heal it -> so he would become a cleric so he could do it. And even then she is trying to convince him not too. Later, he is telling his vampire-self he wanted to do it himself, which is probably true at one point, but of course he cannot say 'but she would refuse it', because to start down that rabbit hole this early might have showed his hand- and prevented him from what he pulls off later in the book.

Durkon realizing that she will never have that arm healed as an adult makes perfect sense. (And which, honestly, I think he already does understand. I would be very, very surprised if we see her with a second arm anywhere in the comic that isn't her in Valhalla with her husband).

[Fyraltari]

K, I’ll stick with Fyraltari then.

Thank you, I appreciate it. You can call me "Fyr" or "Fyra" or "'Altari" or any other diminutive if you want, though.

[greenfunkman]

Well, well... Roy's Lawfulness apparently has a limit :lol:

The dwarves may have enshrined the "two drink minimum" into law... certainly custom!

[CriticalFailure]

Considering that I'm the only one who's really brought it up, I can say that was not my thinking.

I don't think Durkon/Minrah will happen because it wouldn't make sense with either character. Durkon's a father now, and his subplot with Hilgya would need to be resolved first, I honestly don't think Durkon is the type to have a romance while the fate of the world is at stake, and I think Minrah deserves better than just being a rebound. The straightness of the pairing isn't the problem, making it a gay romance wouldn't fix anything, I think these characters aren't suited for a romantic plotline, at least not in the time the comic has left.

The reason I think Bandana/Minrah might happen is effectively just because I could see it happening. Both are single, they'd probably have a fun dynamic and a couple secondary characters (of I would argue equal importance) having a romance would be a good subplot to balance out the high stakes of the final book. I do not think it will happen, but I don't think it's out of the question and I don't think it'd be jarring or out of character.



This more or less.

Again, I'm really not arguing that it's going to happen, I just think it's more likely than Minrah/Durkon.

But if she does get a romantic plotline Minrah/Durkon makes a lot more sense with her character than Minrah/Bandana, at least for something more than a fling.

I don't think that Minrah/Durkon is super likely but I can see it happening and making sense. Durkon and Minrah have already been shown to have a good rapport after having a fairly deep conversation in the afterlife, they are both lawful, brave, dutiful clerics of Thor, and they both seem to have strong connections to the Firmament community. I agree that the Order won't have romance on their minds with the end of the world nigh, but since they are both clerics from the same community they will likely continue to see each other frequently after the world is saved. Things with Hilgya are pretty clearly going to be a co-parenting relationship. It was just a one night stand, it's not like he is still hung up on her romantically - the proposal was just an ill advised attempt to fulfill his duty. "Rebound" usually implies trying to start dating again after a long term relationship. And it's not like people with a kid who aren't in a relationship with the other parent stop dating forever.

I don't really see the "they would have a fun dynamic" thing. Most of Bandana's jokes and dialogue come down to being "gritty badass pirate captain," and I don't see what dynamic this would create other than Bandana being a straight man for Minrah's goofy over explanations of what she's trying to say. Plus, given the chaotic rogue/pirate vs lawful guard/cleric, nomadic airship lifestyle versus part of a community in Dwarven lands, I have a hard time seeing anything between them going farther than "you're attractive, let's shack up for a while while we are one the same quest." I don't think that would be out of character, but some sort of serious romance would be pretty out of character for both of them.

[Dion]

It's like when the Brady Bunch added cousin Oliver.

Change My Mind

Nope. Cousin Oliver was the shortest of the bunch. Minrah is not the shortest. Therefore Minrah is not like cousin Oliver.

[Jasdoif]

Pushing a relationship between two characters who haven't even met, is much like propelling a ship that's still anchored.