[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)

[squiggit]

For all the people who wanted to play "Class X in its original flavor+maneuvers" the Martial training line exists for them. Mostly these archetypes exist to actually be archetypes in their original sense. Not to be class+ or "same flavor with maneuvers," but a new and unique taste on the class that gives you new and very different options.

To be fair, Martial Training tends to be a kind of crummy solution. I mean it's a nice set of feats on its own but is devoid of flavor, eats up most of your feats and leaves you with the worst recovery ever and you only get one discipline out of it.

I think the biggest problem is when the people in question like half an archetype but not the other half. Like the above example, not liking the aggro mechanics on the paladin archetype.

Or.. one of my players was really excited for a spellless initiating ranger but ended up hating ambush hunter because he didn't want to be a beastmaster.

[tekevil]

This isn't a flavor issue so much as a gameplay issue. It's not the SUPPORT abilities that bug me, it's the TANKING ones. Or, uh, one. I mean there's one of those. Just the Censure.

Plus a Paladin with Martial Training has godawful recovery and still has spells.

I mean personally I want to suggest the Knight Disciple gain both Scarlet Throne and Iron Tortoise, because they're mostly mutually exclusive - it just adds more support for the facesmasher Paladin - but I'm not sure what the design intention here is. Because the Knight Disciple doesn't... appear to alter the fluff. You're still a supernatural very bulky melee/support class.

Knight Disciple just has this one ability which inclines it towards tanking, and... I don't know what to make of that?

I don't consider Censure a tanking ability. It's a support ability because it's a buff for your team mates. Sure it incentivizes some enemies to target you, but it does so by buffing your team mates. No different from the Warder's Aegis that gives defensive buffs to allies, but not yourself. The Knight Disciple supports by preventing and making your buddies bad targets and Censure follows that up.

The Knight Disciple currently has Iron Tortoise, Silver Crane, and Golden Lion. So I guess if you want Scarlet Throne for smashing of faces your best bet is to either put a really good argument forward to get it changed or to trait into it.

I don't know about you, but I never once saw the Paladin's fluff as supportive, but more of a unstoppable force of good that couldn't be taken down or stopped for long.

[tekevil]

To be fair, Martial Training tends to be a kind of crummy solution. I mean it's a nice set of feats on its own but is devoid of flavor, eats up most of your feats and leaves you with the worst recovery ever and you only get one discipline out of it.

I think the biggest problem is when the people in question like half an archetype but not the other half. Like the above example, not liking the aggro mechanics on the paladin archetype.

Or.. one of my players was really excited for a spelless initiating ranger but ended up hating ambush hunter because he didn't want to be a beastmaster.

I don't think it's a crummy solution. I think it does an amazing job at forcing the player to choose.

Do they want to keep their class features or their feats to gain maneuvers? You gotta pick something in this trade because honestly giving up nothing, or nothing of value, to gain something of value is just plain bad design.

As for your friend with the spell less initiating ranger wish. The only thing making the Ranger archetype "beast master" is that he gets benefits for flanking with his animal and how he gains maneuvers back while flanking. If it's the fact that he has an animal companion that irks him then what is his idea of a Ranger because it's likely that another class would fit his idea better.

[AGrinningCat]

I think the biggest problem is when the people in question like half an archetype but not the other half. Like the above example, not liking the aggro mechanics on the paladin archetype.

Or.. one of my players was really excited for a spellless initiating ranger but ended up hating ambush hunter because he didn't want to be a beastmaster.

What if the archetypes were a bit more broken down? Like Archetype options? Build your own arhcetype? Trade out class features on a 1 to 1 basis rather than as a packaged deal. Quick and dirty example:

Paladin can give up spells or all aura class features to become an initiator with recovery mechanic G or H.
Paladin can give up Smite Evil or Lay on Hands for ability X, Y, or Z
Paladin can give up Auras or Divine Bond for ability A, B, or C

This way if a Paladin wants to cast spells and still be an initiator (like a Pathwalker), then they can give up their auras.
If they don't want spells, they can give those up instead.
If a Paladin wants to be more aggro, they can sacrifice Lay on Hands for ability X. If they want to be a piercing thunder mounted paladin, they could give up Auras for ability B.

So paladin Alice gives up spells, auras, and Lay on hands for Initiation, Ability X and ability B to make a Holy Rider(With recovery mechanic G for more offense), while Paladin Bob gives up Auras, Divine Bond, and Smite evil to make a Silver-Crane Hospitaler(With recovery mechanic H for more Support).

It's a bit more work, but everyone will go home happy. Except whoever has to write it.

[tekevil]

I disagree a lot in numerous ways, but primarily I say

Maneuvers+Smite=bad

Smite is already the best steroid in the game and combining it with maneuvers is a good way to make DMs and potential reviewers to cry foul when they see it.

If you're comfortable with that kind of stuff in your games then houserule it.

For a product that's intended to sell and make money to a variety of communities it makes no sense to do that.

[squiggit]

Do they want to keep their class features or their feats to gain maneuvers? You gotta pick something in this trade because honestly giving up nothing, or nothing of value, to gain something of value is just plain bad design.

I don't think anyone said anything about not giving up anything. In fact the point I saw had them giving up the exact same things, just for a slightly different benefit.

As for your friend with the spell less initiating ranger wish. The only thing making the Ranger archetype "beast master" is that he gets benefits for flanking with his animal and how he gains maneuvers back while flanking. If it's the fact that he has an animal companion that irks him then what is his idea of a Ranger because it's likely that another class would fit his idea better.

Yeah I ended up just letting him play a stalker with track.

What if the archetypes were a bit more broken down? Like Archetype options? Build your own arhcetype? Trade out class features on a 1 to 1 basis rather than as a packaged deal.

I love archetypes as a concept but I do wish Pathfinder had some ACFs in it too, yeah.

[Taveena]

Do they want to keep their class features or their feats to gain maneuvers? You gotta pick something in this trade because honestly giving up nothing, or nothing of value, to gain something of value is just plain bad design.

I don't want to keep my class features, though. I want to give them up for maneuvers.

It's just that doing so turns me into the meatshield.

I'm pretty happy with the Knight Disciple as it stands, admittedly - it's just that Scarlet Throne wouldn't break the class, simply give it more options, and Censure incentivises enemies to attack you, which seems like it should be more an opt-in thing like Dark Allure, if that makes sense?

[AGrinningCat]

I disagree a lot in numerous ways, but primarily I say
Maneuvers+Smite=bad

Then have maneuvers require you to give up smite. Smite + spells or Smite itself or what have you = Initator(+Recovery, maybe modify how smite works here). Everything else becomes player choice if they want it or not. This way you could be the paladin about hitting evil, be the paladin about being a meat shield, or be the paladin about being supporty. This would do a lot for classes that have multiple iterations of them (Paladin, Ranger being the two most current examples).

Really the biggest hurdles here are the writing and balancing (Which is with all stuff, really), and the fact that there's no precedent set already (Which PoW is already breaking with it's Class Templates).

[tekevil]

Class Templates actually use a near identical system as another 3PP Multi-Class archetypes.

[Tempestfury]

Vigilante's maneuver recovery has been fixed for now. We're discussing alternative maneuver recovery options though, so it's still subject to change.

Darn, even more incompatible with the Bushi...

Fixin' stuff again.

Spoiler: Dance of the Silver Hurricane

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Dance of the Silver Hurricane
Mithral Current (Counter)
Level: 9
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: instantaneous

The true master of the Mithral Current knows the dance of battle and every step that he takes is perfectly attuned to that deadly rhythm. Until the start of your next turn, you can make a Perform (Dance) check in place of your AC or CMD against any attack made against you. Any time an attack misses you, you can make a free 10 ft. step which does not provoke attacks of opportunity, although you may choose to provoke an attack of opportunity if you wish. At the start of your next turn, you can make a single counterattack against each creature that attacked you and missed while this counter was active. You can make the counterattacks against each creature that attacked you regardless of the distance between you and the attacking creature. These counterattacks are treated as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction or vulnerabilities. If you drew your weapon as part of initiating this counter, your counterattacks deal an additional 1d6 points of damage for each time you were attacked by that creature, to a maximum of 6d6 points of additional damage.

Well, I'm saddened by the lost of the 'Draw Sword, Counterattack EVERYTHING in Close Range' of the ability, as it all honestly that is much more interesting that the additional damage for each time you were counterattacked... but that ability is still a strong ability in its own right, and I suppose having both is much. The fact its still 'attacks as silver' instead of being 'the enemy is vulnerable to silver for these counterattacks' still annoys me however. We don't need a treat a silver effect on the level 9 maneuver!

The fact it lets you make TEN feet steps is pretty nice however. That is a change I really get behind.

[Doomeye56]

Taveena, trying not to be rude here but the Knight-Disciple is suppose to be a tank/support not a beat stick/support. That is the states design goal of the developer for the archetype. So the problem here is that Censure is a tanking ability its that your view of the archetype is off.

[NineThePuma]

Oh? And what do you say he would be then?

Vincent Valentine, prior to Dirge of Cerberus and the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII had a peculiarly Mage leaning set of abilities (his Magic stat is tier 2, he had the second most MP behind Aeris; additionally, he had the lowest HP (period) and his STR was only higher than Aeris's, and his VIT was one rung above the bottom (just above Aeris) this paints a picture of a particularly squishy individual who didn't have good attack damage but was an excellent caster). His equipment has only two outliers (before Death Penalty, I'll get into that in a second): both of them had essentially "Will Not Miss" as a major feature, with 255 built in accuracy, which gave him a strong incentive to utilize a special attack maneuver (Death Blow, which dealt double damage) rather than basic attack. Death Penalty itself, in its original form, has an increasing damage value from kills made, and could /eventually/ bug out the game and accidentally deal infinite damage past the damage cap enabling him to kill people in one shot, but that's irrelevant. The other significant aspect to Vincent Valentine is that he has the ability to transform into monsters, essentially becoming berserk and gaining increased stats as well as unique special abilities that are only available while transformed.

Dirge of Cerberus and the Compilation play up Vincent's immortality and superhuman nature, giving him significant acrobatics and movement capabilities far beyond the realm of human possibility (but apparently within the realm of general superhuman abilities as shown in the fact that other members of avalanche, including Cid Highwind who is 7 years his senior in terms of physical age at the time of Advent Children, is capable of keeping up with the shenanigans of Cloud and Vincent) but most specifically focus, beyond such acrobatics and movement, on his gunplay rather than his significant magical skill (to such a degree that he never even casts a spell in Advent Children, but the movie only had so much space to showcase everyone and he plays a larger role than many other major characters, and the only person to actually cast things in the movie is the villain).

Taking these various factors into account he is quite obviously a gun wielding synthesist summoner who trades out Summon Monster increased gunplay and snags a more generalized spell list.

EDIT: or possibly a Gun Mage abusing Polymorph.

[Elricaltovilla]

See? Told you I'd get yelled at for mark of censure.

You guys aren't the only ones forced to make difficult choices with archetypes, there's a lot of stuff I didn't want to cut or valued differently, but I had to recognize what exactly each part of a class's features was valued at. The knight disciple was designed to be tank/support. Its not hurting for damage options in its maneuvers, but that's also not the focus of the archetype. There will be more books to explore other versions of the initiating paladin.

There will be more books right?

[Vhaidara]

So, I'm considering making a Mystic Archetype, the Bloodborne Mystic, that swaps out Glyphs for a bloodline. The problem I'm torn on is should it be a Bloodrager or a Sorcerer bloodline? My current thought is that when you would get a bloodline spell, you get it as a 1/day SLA

[MilleniaAntares]

I'm okay with Pathwalker since you can use it to go straight into Awakened Blade. 6th level manifesting and 6th level maneuvers on the same character is basically like playing a mini-gestalt and is awesome. I'm patiently waiting for the new Pathwalker paths myself.

Keep in mind with the new idea on progression means you can get 9th level maneuvers and 6th level manifesting by going into Awakened Blade.

[Jacob.Tyr]

See? Told you I'd get yelled at for mark of censure.

You guys aren't the only ones forced to make difficult choices with archetypes, there's a lot of stuff I didn't want to cut or valued differently, but I had to recognize what exactly each part of a class's features was valued at. The knight disciple was designed to be tank/support. Its not hurting for damage options in its maneuvers, but that's also not the focus of the archetype. There will be more books to explore other versions of the initiating paladin.

There will be more books right?

As someone taking their first level in Knight Disciple on an Oradin, I really like the change. I was worried that it would end up being too powerful a combination, smite+maneuvers+2h weapons+power attack. Kind of obscene on someone who blanket shuts down enemies from effectively hurting their allies.

[Taveena]

Taveena, trying not to be rude here but the Knight-Disciple is suppose to be a tank/support not a beat stick/support. That is the states design goal of the developer for the archetype. So the problem here is that Censure is a tanking ability its that your view of the archetype is off.

I did say that Censure was the ONLY ability that lent the class to a tanking role. Otherwise it's entirely support/beatstick.

So in its CURRENT state it's heavily lacking in tanking abilities.

Furthermore I haven't actually SEEN the developer clarify that - it's entirely possible, and indeed, likely, that I missed it.

But I did miss it. So! THAT'S PROBABLY WHY.

It doesn't help that until the recent addition of Censure they had no abilities AT ALL pointing the class towards being tank focused? So it's rather easy to miss the design intent.

EDIT: I mean, that's the thing, isn't it? I'm FINE with it being a tanking class - its intent was just muddy. The inability to shield yourself with Guardian's Shield is odd, to me, for a tank - seems like you'd WANT that mitigation. The temp HP, unlike the DR, doesn't really make you a higher priority target, in part because of its impermanent nature and further because even if it DID then it'd simply make one target... slightly buffer?

[Doomeye56]

They were suppose to be more of a mitigation tank. Reducing damage to allies while making themselves the most tempting target. It was part II where it was all discussed so it could of easily if been missed.

The intent was to give their tanking a different spin from Warder's or the Silver Hand Monk

[Taveena]

I think I'm kind of disappointed - and thus was clinging to the idea it COULD be a beatstick beyond the point of reason - because the fact is that there's not going to be any way to build a maneuver Paladin beatstick - because Martial Training is not worth the feats and the spells will end up dominating anyway. And I'm a huge sucker for beatstick paladins. And it's extremely unlikely DSP will release a second Paladin archetype for the face-smashing, because it wouldn't be thematically different enough from the Knight Disciple to justify it. Many of the abilities would probably be exactly the same. Just a different Shield and Censure. Maybe Scarlet Throne or Piercing Thunder instead.

Makes me a little melancholy, I guess - I vaguely remember something similar like this coming up with the Monk in a previous thread. I'm not really sure if there is even anything I can suggest here.

[AGrinningCat]

Keep in mind with the new idea on progression means you can get 9th level maneuvers and and 6th level manifesting by going into Awakened Blade.

Wait what? I think I slept through that class.

[ErrantX]

And it's extremely unlikely DSP will release a second Paladin archetype for the face-smashing, because it wouldn't be thematically different enough from the Knight Disciple to justify it.

You never know. We're still finishing material and if we have room left, we'll likely make more archetypes or something. And there's nothing saying that we won't make more paladin archetypes either. Personally, I like wrathful, beat-stick paladins. I also like healer-paladins. Shieldadins are not my favorite. So we'll see!

-X

[Forrestfire]

So, I'm considering making a Mystic Archetype, the Bloodborne Mystic, that swaps out Glyphs for a bloodline. The problem I'm torn on is should it be a Bloodrager or a Sorcerer bloodline? My current thought is that when you would get a bloodline spell, you get it as a 1/day SLA

Bloodrager bloodlines are mostly boring, underwhelming, or require bloodrage to actually function. Go for Sorcerer, there's more of them and they're more fun.

[Elricaltovilla]

You've got it from two devs now. As long as you guys are still interested in more Path of War material, we're willing to keep putting it out there. There are plenty of worthwhile design spaces to explore with the paladin and other classes. Heck, the only thing I'm any good at is writing archetypes. If we stopped putting out new ones I'd be out of a job!

To give a little insight on the Warder, Knight Disciple and Monk of the Silver Fist as tanks:

Spoiler: For the Curious

Show

So, I can't speak directly for anyone else on the writing team, but I'll do my best to illustrate the thought process behind the design of the Monk of the Silver Fist and the Knight Disciple, which I did design.

Essentially, the desire for more tanking options was something that all of us had expressed, so when it came time to design archetypes, that was something I began looking at. The Paladin and the Monk both had "reputations" as being tanks, they were hard to kill, but their abilities didn't actually support protecting their allies. So they seemed like a good choice to expand tanking options beyond just the warder.

The next step was to look at what the warder was really good at. In my mind, the warder is an Area Denial Tank. His tanking comes from the ability to set up a zone that made it difficult for enemies to move around and blocking them from getting to his allies. This is arguably the most effective way to tank in Pathfinder, and the warder is undeniably the best tank.

The goal of the Knight Disciple was to be a mitigation tank. Her tanking ability comes not from controlling an area, but by making herself the most attractive target. Silver Crane does this by allowing the Knight Disicple essentially unlimited healing in combat. Her maneuver recovery makes her allies much harder to affect with attacks or spells. The Mark of Censure makes allies much harder to hurt. Guardian's Shield protects allies from Conditions and provides temporary Hit Points to keep them standing longer. The reason so many of the Knight Disciple's abilities don't work on her is because the goal is to put the enemy in a lose-lose situation: either attack the Knight Disciple (who can take the hit) or attack the Knight Disciple's Allies (who are so well protected that it's probably not worth it).

The Monk of the Silver Fist is supposed to be a bodyguard style tank. His tanking works best in small parties, and he relies on the ability to zip around the battlefield blocking attacks for his allies. He has some mitigation effects (mark of the silver hand), but he is supposed to be primarily focused on hard control, he forces the enemy to target his (supposedly) much higher AC and Saves instead of attacking his allies. Now that hasn't worked out so well yet, but I'm going to fix it.

[Deadkitten]

Kirin Strike (Combat): As long as you have at least 1 stamina point in your stamina pool, when you hit a creature you have identified with Kirin Style, you add your Intelligence modifier to melee and ranged attack damage rolls against that creature for the next 24 hours. You still can take a swift action to add twice your Intelligence modifier to damage rolls, but that damage doesn't stack with the damage from this combat trick.

I know that you guys are not designing right now with Pathfinder Unchained in mind, but I felt like this was a good place to share this little tidbit.

[The Glyphstone]

Just an idle thought, but with regards to the Vigilante - could it be modified to, instead of forbidding taking stalker arts that require Ki, to instead have those arts cost Inspiration to use?

Just bringing this up again once, in case it got overlooked. Maybe there's a good mechanical reason I haven't considered, like the average size of an Inspiration pool versus a Ki Pool, but it seemed possible at least and pretty much every Art could be refluffed as an intellectual thing instead of a mystic one (Phantom Reach is the only one I'm struggling with).

[Elricaltovilla]

Just bringing this up again once, in case it got overlooked. Maybe there's a good mechanical reason I haven't considered, like the average size of an Inspiration pool versus a Ki Pool, but it seemed possible at least and pretty much every Art could be refluffed as an intellectual thing instead of a mystic one (Phantom Reach is the only one I'm struggling with).

The Vigilante gets both Stalker Arts and Investigator Talents, although both lists are limited. Inspiration can also be used on skill checks and ability checks. I know everybody looks at Vigilante and goes "STRIKER!" but really, inspiration and the INT focus was meant to help put it in more of a skill monkey role.

[Nyaa]

If I get Martial Training or Advanced Study via Martial Flexibility, do I need to spend 10 minutes readying my newly acquired maneuvers? I can see it being logical with the latter, but it makes the former unusable too, as Martial Flexibility lasts only for a minute.

[ErrantX]

If I get Martial Training or Advanced Study via Martial Flexibility, do I need to spend 10 minutes readying my newly acquired maneuvers? I can see it being logical with the latter, but it makes the former unusable too, as Martial Flexibility lasts only for a minute.

Rules as written? Yes, you'd have to take 10 minutes.

That's totally lame and not fun.

I'd say a perfectly acceptable method is that those maneuvers come readied to you when you call them with Martial Flexibility, if your game would not be unbalanced by doing so. Check with your GM, but I personally don't see a problem with it.

-X

[AGrinningCat]

I know that you guys are not designing right now with Pathfinder Unchained in mind, but I felt like this was a good place to share this little tidbit.

Pathfinder Unchained has some interesting tidbits (Like what you just mentioned). The stamina feat/system is pretty interesting as well -- I wonder if there's design space for utilizing stamina and maneuvers.

You've got it from two devs now. As long as you guys are still interested in more Path of War material, we're willing to keep putting it out there. There are plenty of worthwhile design spaces to explore with the paladin and other classes. Heck, the only thing I'm any good at is writing archetypes. If we stopped putting out new ones I'd be out of a job!

Speaking of future products, I want to throw the idea of a book that just expands current options. Existing disciplines get extra maneuvers (Golden Lion could get a second first level stance, for example), psionics (Since DSP also does that) gets new manifesting abilities, aegis gets new customizations, Soul knife gets new blade skills. Heck, since y'all got Akashic stuff coming out soon, new veils too. Could name it 'Forgotten Techniques of the Third Dawn' or something.

[Elricaltovilla]

We're not touching Unchained material with this book. It's too new, and we haven't had time to work with it and see what kind of issues might arise, or what level of support Unchained is actually going to receive from Paizo.