Book Club: Player's Handbook II

[Darg]

I was actually comparing to every medium BAB class I could think of. I guess we could add Ninja to that list.

Edit: It is pretty telling that almost every medium BAB base class is a caster or pseudocaster.

You don't have to just compare it to other medium BAB classes. It's quite a bit more interesting than a fighter and quite as capable or more so in several ways.

That is actually not correct. You can take the feat multiple times. Hmmm, maybe I am misreading that. It's still halving every round though so it's pretty meaningless by round 10. So yes you could apply it multiple times. But it's not going to be very meaningful because:

- Emphasis mine.

So that would be halving damage every round. So a 20th level Dragon Shaman would do 60 damage the first round on creatures that didn't save, 30 the following the round on creatures that failed their save, then 15, then 7. That's not particularly great damage for level 20. And you'll find that's the case throughout. You're just not doing that much damage with it. Although I am glad I misread that.. That does make it more powerful.

Edit: 6 rounds would be the maximum at 20th level before it zeros out.

You didn't even bother to quote the entire sentence which would have clarified what you claim is incorrect.

In the round after you breathe, the clinging breath weapon deals half of the damage it dealt in the previous round.

When it says previous round it is talking about the round that you use the breath. Technically, if you're trying to make a RAW argument the one you should be making is that any round after the second does no damage because the text never says that they can do damage. Then again, that would literally defeat the purpose of being able to stack the effect so it's a loss either way.

You should reread the rules for metabreath feats. The Clinging one has a special exception that allows you to use it multiple times. Heighten breath does not allow you to use it multiple times. You can increase the DC by more than 1 though. Eventually though you have to be concerned about potentially running into another combat or something. Again Clinging Breath specifically allows you to use it multiple times on the same breath

I mean, we could get into the RAW argument about how metabreaths stack, but that would derail the thread. Just know that the "special exception" is not that they can be used more than once on a breath (that's just a general rule), but rather that they alter how combining effects work. Traditionally, if you use the same effect more than once it works exactly as stated. In the case of clinging breath this would mean that you create multiple instances of clinging breath that all would do their damage in the second round. Stack it 10 times and do 5x the original damage in the second round. The special text works by altering this and instead has it tack on extra rounds instead.

Yeah, it's a pretty decent effect, you get to do one fun thing in the combat. And then you don't get to do anything because you have medium BAB which isn't enough to optimize any combat style and you don't have the feats to do any of that cause all your feats are metabreath to optimize the ONE time you get to breath in combat. Again it halves each round. So again at 20th level, you are doing 60 + 30 + 15 + 7 + 3 + 1... 116 damage, if you can get all the enemies that's pretty decent, but you're not likely to be able to. And honestly the enemies aren't going to burn rounds trying to stop 30 damage... or less. And that's 116 damage assuming that they never make any saves.

Edit: Let's compare to Inferno Blast a 9th level maneuver and a bad one. It does 100 damage INSTANTLY in a 60' radius, you can use that more than once in a combat. In fact you can probably use the Instant Recovery feat to use the round after

Besides the incorrect premise of how clinging breath stacks, at level 1 medium BAB is only -1 AB at level 1 and only -5 at level 17. Yes, it becomes significant, but at the same time it's really not that bad overall. You aren't meant to be the martial god, but saying you can't contribute is minimalist in the extreme.

Comparing a ToB martial to a non-ToB martial is like comparing a Wizard to a warmage to prove that warmage is a terrible class. It doesn't actually do what you think it does.

If you have even one guy that can charge that's WAY more than 116 damage. And we're doing that three levels before the Dragon Shaman. Like the breath is okay, but it's not past okay.

Charging is an action anyone can make... I don't know how you think someone is doing more than 116 damage at level one. It's like you're trying to overexaggerate to prove a point that I'm failing to grasp here.

No you can't... because you spent all your feats on metabreath, if you didn't your breath sucks and if you aren't paying attention to your breath why are you playing Dragon Shaman, just play a Marshall.

Take a look at these:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...o-Melee-Combos

How many of them have no feat investment? None of them. Every single combat style requires some feat investment, or spell investment.

And focusing on your breath combat style requires feat investment. Your argument here contradicts itself.

I'm confused as to what point you're making here. Barbarians have more published PrCs that are good. Dragon Shamans have ZERO. Most campaigns do not involve DM tailor designed PrCs we have enough play data to know that's the case. In fact most games are not going to allow PrCs that weren't published in a first party book (maybe Dragon Magazine now, because it's become more popular to allow that)

PRCs are alternative rules. Judging a class based on rules that aren't guaranteed and when allowed not faithfully followed is not the fault of the class itself. That's on the DM of the campaign. That's like saying being an anthropomorphic whale is better than being human. Objectively true, but it doesn't mean it's always an option.

Most enemies aren't going to be able to kill an ubercharger in one hit, they have good HP and they probably have Wall of Blades or some other defensive measure. And if they don't then that's part of that class. It is more fun to charge an enemy and die than it is to stand there doing nothing after the first round and you've blown your breath. That's the issue.

So, taking one turn and dying while losing a level is more fun than staying alive and contributing more? Your kind of fun just seems much less fun to me.

I mean the visual is pretty significant. You need at least a couple feats to be good at charging.

And again it's hard to know what you are arguing for.

The Auras are not very good, that's why trading them for Invocations is always recommended. I mean low level some of them are okay. Draconic Adaptation only helps you. Medium BAB is not particularly useful. Armor proficiencies are inherently selfish. Dragon Shaman just doesn't do what it's supposed to. It doesn't really buff the party that much. It doesn't really make you feel like a dragon. It's just a dud. And this is coming from somebody who likes optimizing duds. The amount of work you have to do to make a Dragon Shaman playable is bonkers.

Power is a free -1 to -5 for power attack, for everyone in the aura. Senses increases initiative and the ability to notice enemies before they notice you. If you don't know how powerful that is, I can't help you. Medium BAB allows you to have a decent to hit chance and medium armor allows you to wade into the melee with some protection. Making the shaman playable is only as much work as you have to put in for other noncasters/nonpseudocasters.

Also the DFA Entangling all the enemies round after round is pretty party friendly.

DFA is a pseudocaster. I get that you prefer the flavor of it over the dragon shaman, but that really has nothing to do with the merits and demerits of the dragon shaman class other than that you think the dragon breath should be the sole focus of the class.