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2024-05-05, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2019
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- Florida
- Gender
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
I think I'll start with NV, unless fallout 1 is basically free.
I have this theory that a good game (or other longform fiction) should essentially "lie" about what it's overall structure will be. Or to put it another way, early expectations should be broken.
The ur example of this is Arabian Nights, which has a framing device where Scheherazade deceives the king about how many stories she will tell. If you haven't read it, the deception is nested, and it's hard to say how many stories are included, even being aware of the central conceit; for example in The fisherman and the Jinn, neither the fisherman or the Jinn appear after the halfway mark; or when Scheherazade's father threatens to beat her, he pauses in the middle to tell a story about a rooster/pimp, and a story about a lazy horse to provide context about the rooster's owner.
A good earlier example is in FFVII where initially you have the goal of blowing up these eight reactors. You blow up two before so much stufftm happens you forget about blowing up reactors.
With most good stories you should be a little surprised at where you are and what's happening all the time. All of good videogames will have thier plot dip in and out of being formulaic in order to keep you from between being bored and adrift.
I think maybe a helpfull analogy is that that gameplay loop it like a big concrete slab is to a house.
It's standard practice to build a house with a concrete slab as a foundation, but the foundation is not (by itself) a remotely a house. A tent makes a much better house than a plain concrete slab. But if you're a (very stupid) construction company putting in foundations for houses feels like building houses. Or if you're a little less stupid you figure you'll worry about the first part first, and find you don't have time to figure out roofs before your deadline.The thing is the Azurites don't use a single color; they use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit, as long as it's blue.
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2024-05-05, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
Back when games came on discs, I got Fallout 1&2 in a combo pack for, IIRC, $2.99. So I'd be surprised if you can't get 1 for "basically free".
But I'd recommend NV anyway. The only problem with starting there is that it's basically downhill every way. Plus we may have built up your expectations.
I have this theory that a good game (or other longform fiction) should essentially "lie" about what it's overall structure will be. Or to put it another way, early expectations should be broken."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2024-05-06, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2019
- Location
- Florida
- Gender
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
Generally, yes, but I think in this specific circumstances it's not often not recognized.
For instance I was disappointed with Tales of Arise which established early on that there were five lords and a kind to be defeated. There were a bunch of plot twists, but they were all neatly contained in exactly the expected order lord1, lord2, lord3, lord4, lord5, and the king. Each chapter was in it's own completely separate geographic area. You could comfortably forget most everything from the last chapter as it would have no bearing on the plot or setting moving forward.The thing is the Azurites don't use a single color; they use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit, as long as it's blue.
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2024-05-06, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
I don't know about plot twist. But a minimal number of plot misdirection is usually a good thing to avoid your plot being episodic and predictable.
If your players expect to go and collect the 6 McGuffins of the End World, make sure the last one has already been snapped by the bad guys, or broken. Or instead of being a big showdown like all the other 5 pieces, have the bad guy not even contest the final piece, but instead he confess he knows the plot about the McGuffins that is fated to end him, has seen it coming.
I think ultimately, the "misdirection" is meant to allow the reconciliation between what a character wants vs what a character needs.
In New Vegas, the Courier wants to recover the Chip/Revenge on Benny. But what the Courier needs is build a network of partners and allies to help him reshape the face of the Mojave.
The initial "want" is but a mirage thrown in your face, a pretext to adventure informed by your inexperience.
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2024-05-07, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2023
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
I don't really see a conflict between want and need in New Vegas. That's partially because what the Courier actually wants is player determined so maybe you really hate Benny's guts, maybe you're just a professional, hell maybe you didn't actually try to track him down and you just ran into him in Vegas coincidentally, but it's also because there's never a moment where you have to realize "I don't need to get revenge, I need to be the kingmaker in the battle for Hoover Dam".
The way the story is structured, tracking down and dealing with Benny is the thing that puts the courier on the map and makes them a serious player on the field.
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2024-05-07, 03:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
"None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2024-05-07, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2023
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
Right, but it's not "want vs need" in the sense of "I thought I wanted to get revenge, but instead I really needed to singlehandedly win the battle of Hoover Dam for [X]". There's no conflict between these motivations in the game, the revenge story gets resolved and then as a consequence the Courier gets tangled up in the political story. It's not a story about a character realizing what they actually need instead of what they thought they wanted, both because that's not the structure and because the Courier is so player directed that their actual motivations can be variable depending on the player.
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2024-05-07, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
There is no "conflict", but they go in different directions nevertheless.
You are 100% right that the two objectives are not at odds. But transitioning from the hurt/revenge story to the Power Broker story enacts this transition.
In a way, the Courier also has the choice to simply refuse to engage mentally with the power broker plot. In that case, he simply remains House's loyal little employee who gets paid. Going for the NCR, Legion or Yes-man requires you to take matter in your own hands and actually decide to stake what you believe in.
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2024-05-07, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2023
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
I don't dispute that taking down Benny is a major turning point, I am specifically objecting to describing it through the framework of "want vs need". I think it's a bad lens that doesn't really reflect how the story functions. There is no tension between taking down Benny and the wider faction conflict, and the courier's character isn't solid enough to actually have clear 'wants' or 'needs'
Last edited by Errorname; 2024-05-07 at 11:38 AM.
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2024-05-07, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
Well, the thing is, merely killing Benny and delivering the Chip.. does nothing, right?
Nothing is accomplished by this. Hell, there's even a scripted even that allow Benny to escape Caesar's camp. And it has no impact on the plot.
Because the revenge, ultimately, was pointless.
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2024-05-07, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2023
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
Foiling Benny's plan and taking the platinum chip is necessary for 3 out of 4 main quest pathways. That the game lets you spare Benny and then didn't have the budget to factor that into the rest of the game (they batted about having him come back and try to kill you or making him a follower, neither panned out) doesn't mean that confronting Benny and obtaining the Platinum Chip is not essential to the main quest.
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2024-05-07, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
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2024-05-07, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- UTC -6
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
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2024-05-08, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2011
Re: Where to get into fallout series?
Isn't one of Colonel Moore's missions to get rid of Mr. House? I've never ignored Benny personally, so The Platinum Chip always ended up back in my hands. I suppose that's what those random Lucky 38 override cards are for? For players who had Benny escape and had the Legion hostile, so if they balked at going to the fort, they could accomplish removing House another way?
Don't know your name but bring the pain.
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2024-05-08, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- UTC -6