New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 241 to 270 of 284
  1. - Top - End - #241
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    ...Ironically, while I was posting my scores, I had to eat, but not before knowing that apparently both girls (Gabriella and Annette, unless Arleigh is also a female, or maybe D-32) had so much content the entire post exceeded the 50,000 character mark. Yeah, I thought by threes would be nice, but my own stuff betrays me... Probably two by two, then at the end I show just how monstrous my judging tends to be?

    I place the blame on Annette's Elegance description, but it's worth every word, I assure you gents.

    Gabriella
    Spoiler
    Show
    Originality
    Spoiler
    Show
    Whoa, hellbred!? I thought the quota for awesome was filled already, but this is quite surprising! Basically, a damned soul eager to fix her past, and she does it under the strictest representation of “carpe diem”, experiencing things no one was ever meant to experience. This is really nice fluff, considering that she has experienced what it is to be damned, and all she needs is to achieve the ultimate experience of both damnation and salvation. Also, while beguiler is quite common, the way it fits with the fluff is unique in many sorts; she was a deceiver, and the class fits with the common description of one, so it’s natural to think of it. Also, very unique way in how you met each of the requirements.

    A few minor nitpicks, though. First, it’s very hard to figure her former profession as a …woman of life, a task that the short yet meaningful story reveals only sparingly. The other, which also has some repercussions in Elegance, implies a lack of correlation between the build and the story. Was she turned into a hellbred and THEN made her progression, or she was instead turned into a hellbred after she was nearing epic level? The story suggests the latter, which is a pretty unique way to meet the requirements for the last level (basically you become a hellbred before level 19), but instead you get troubles with Elegance. I’ll explain those there.


    Score: 4.5 (awesome story, awesome choice of race, awesome progression…the only thing is that Beguiler is a pretty common choice because of how good it is. But I smile seeing stuff from the Book of Exalted Deeds, tho.)

    Power
    Spoiler
    Show
    This is a surprisingly strong build, though one that has to be considered carefully. This is because of the presence of Vow of Poverty, which is a double-edged sword; by all means, the benefits from the vow should have already been removed because of what the build and the story suggest.

    First, the meat of the build itself: spellcasting. You chose a pretty interesting path by taking Beguiler spellcasting, fitting Prestige Bard to meet Sublime Chord requirements, and finally get into Sublime Chord. Basically you get up to 7 levels of Beguiler spellcasting, which with the 10 levels of Sublime Chord and Practiced Spellcaster means you get 9th level spells at level 19th, something surprising considering that you get it one level later and STILL manage to get a few divine spells alongside your main arcane spellcasting. What’s better, you can technically cast in light armor, use the beguiler’s cloaked casting abilities with Sublime Chord (as you’re using that degree of spellcasting) and get most of the good 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells of the Beguiler. It is a very fluid progression which, while halted right around the middle, quickly picks up. The latter level spells are from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, meaning you get the potential of a sorcerer without the problems of 1st level spells, given that you get beauties like Mage Armor, Mirror Image and Haste. And obviously you’re going with the broken spells, so definitely the power is as relevant as that of a Sorcerer: tier 2, not world-breaking but still potent. I find that someone who plays Sorcerers will find the build an interesting thought exercise, and those who play Sublime Chords an even more interesting thought exercise.

    The second is the choice of feats. Normally, I would oppose to the choice of Devil-Touched and Abyssal Heritor feats, but the fluff just beautifully counters it. Basically, you are seeking redemption, so you’re normally following the path of the Exalted Good; yet, because of your hellbred condition, you not only seek to gain the benefit of devil-touched feats, but dabble a bit in the abnormal situation offered by Ordered Chaos. It’s interesting to say the very least, because it essentially works the same as someone who knows the Celestial, Abyssal and Infernal languages; your build is basically the mechanical simile to the languages themselves. Vow of Poverty is not that powerful, but it allows you to get more Exalted feats; however, Abyssal Heritor feats usually get more powerful the more feats you have of the same tag (something I believe shifters introduced?), and you get a strong list. Bonuses to Search and Spot, darkvision, natural armor (even though very late; earlier on it would have been quite good), fascination which mingles very well with the bard’s fascination abilities (which you have!), boosting a bit more bardic knowledge… Then, you get devil-touched feats which add blindsight (although temporarily, so it doesn’t conflict with blindsense), fast healing and MORE natural armor.

    However, the big conflict here is Vow of Poverty. You manage to get some of the feats through Vow of Poverty’s bonus to ability scores, but that precludes the use of spell components, and I don’t see Eschew Materials. But let’s ignore that: what really kills the power of most of the feats is the clause that forbids selecting or using Exalted feats. There’s no counter-argument on the hellbred that ignores that, so it means no Vow of Poverty, no Nymph’s Kiss, no Touch of Golden Ice, no Nimbus of Light, no Stigmata, no other vows. What’s worse: you can’t choose Exalted feats since 1st level, because you get Devil’s Favor at 1st level which automatically counters that. How that hits power? Well, it makes you lose 1 skill point per level (so that means you’d need to reorganize the feats), it makes you lose a lot of feats, but what really pushes it is that you lose bonuses to ability scores and everything offered by Vow of Poverty. This is bad but also good: you lose the bonuses to ability scores which means you can’t qualify for Devil’s Sight nor Devil’s Flesh, meaning you lose the blindsight and natural armor you would have otherwise gained from them. Basically, of all the feats you have, you lose around 10 feats total, and about 30-40% of them are really good. Fortunately Demonic Skin and Eyes of the Abyss counter the loss, but then that makes the latter feats a bit redundant. As a DM, I can’t ignore the fact that hellbred are only exempted from the negative levels of evil items, but not of the repercussions of devil-touched feats, so a great deal of your power gets lost with that. And the whole point becomes moot when you realize that Vow of Poverty only grants minor benefits for what you would have otherwise gotten. Sure, you tried to bypass the idea about magic items, but just as true is that you’ll get magic items as the fact that you won’t get those you want to. Which is kinda silly, because a minor reorganization of feats and skill points makes the build just as effective otherwise. The hit is mostly on Elegance, not really on Power.


    Score: 4 (Sublime Chords are pretty strong, almost to the extent of tier 1 spellcasters just because of their choice of abilities. Like the idea of Abyssal Heritor and Devil-Touched feats in conjunction, but the fact that you can’t choose two of the latter feats and no access to Exalted feats causes a hit to your otherwise high amount of power; still, the hit is mostly on the all-important ability scores, not on anything else since you get spells to counter that).

    Elegance
    Spoiler
    Show
    I find it sad that such a good build has an Achilles’ heel. That is, of course, the originality of the build clashing with the tough luck of strict reading.

    Now, and recapping the two issues for clarity: as far as I can see, the character either began as a hellbred, or turned into one during the way, AND you somehow thought Evil Exception was some sort of counter to the clause of Devil-Touched feats. And the latter was probably intentional. The clause of the devil-touched feats is the big pebble in the road here, because it invalidates most of your choices, as well as invalidating some of your ability scores as well. This makes the build a bit cluttered, and also invalidates the entry to Emissary of Barachiel if you can’t use the Exalted feats, thus invalidating the entire entry into Ardent Dilettante, hence reducing your power score IMMENSELY. The fact that you were trying to use Vow of Poverty to deal with the magic item issue (essentially ignoring the need for magic items by complementing with spells) really cripples the build. There are a few divine spellcasting classes or PrCs that could have allowed entry into Ardent Dilettante, since otherwise you specified very carefully which was the methodology used to comply with entry requirements. It’s a real shame, because it makes your build stumble right at the same place most other builds seem to stumble upon.

    Another perk, but more of a peeve than a real concern, is the choice of Infernal Aspect. I can understand the choice of more feats (and basically Devil’s Sight effectively replaces the Spirit aspect), but I feel Spirit would have been a strong choice in here. First, you already had a good Constitution score; second, you have Devil’s Stamina, so you get more HP; third, you’re a spellcaster so more Charisma is good, even if the Constitution loss is bad; fourth and most important, you could have qualified for Mindsight without touching the Mindbender class, something that really smarts because it would have allowed you to gain an extra sense with very long range, allowing you to prepare before the creatures even have a chance to notice; finally, it would have allowed you to ignore Wisdom for slightly more Constitution or a better score. However, the focus of the build is the (ab)use of feat acquisition (Vow of Poverty, the Body aspect and Ardent Dilettante help on that, alongside the free metamagic feat from Beguiler; between those, you effectively have one feat per level, something that few builds can boast upon, even though half of those feats are invalidated because of build issues).

    One thing I must congratulate you is on how you met the requirements for most of the legal entry requirements. Had the Exalted feat thing worked, you would have gotten a pretty interesting way to enter the PrC’s latter levels, alongside the use of Prestige Bard to qualify for Ardent Dilettante and Sublime Chord while boosting Beguiler spellcasting, AND also allowing to qualify for the martial and exotic weapon requirements (basically, Ardent Dilettante FORCES you to be a Bard, so you might figure the martial weapons and the whip allow you to qualify). I would have said getting Divine Bard was a good way to enter as well, though it would have made you depend a bit on Wisdom (and your Wisdom is pitifully low; really, how did you manage to get Devil’s Sight on first place?). If it weren’t for that clause, the way to enter Emissary of Barachiel would have been interesting as well.

    Though…why Emissary of Barachiel, anyways? Calling is a nice trick, but not something awe-inspiring such as, say, probably Evangelist or something. Again, Divine Bard would have been an equally nice entry trick for Ardent Dilettante, not to mention allowing you to gain Inspirational Boost to make your Inspire Courage abilities slightly better.


    Score: 3 (well explained, got requirements with nice detail, but what kills it is ignoring the clause of Devil-Touched feats as well as lack of awareness of your own ability scores. Also, the dip on Emissary of Barachiel makes sense in terms of fluff, but not mechanical sense whereas something like Divine Bard would have been an entry trick with better sense.)

    Use of Secret Ingredient
    Spoiler
    Show
    I don’t think I could explain the worth of the build better than you did. Certainly, you pointed out everything the build has to offer. I see that you made a very good use of all skills (something that few classes like the Factotum and few PrCs such as the Exemplar grant) by adding UPD and Autohypnosis, though the lack of Iaijutsu Focus and more UMD is sorely lacking. The loss of Nymph’s Kiss really blows in here, since you lose an extra skill point which you would normally use to get even more skills this way. Lore not only gets boosted by the Prestige Bard’s bardic knowledge, but from Keeper of the Forgotten Lore which is a nice way to get some class skills beforehand. Heightened Senses and Eyes of the Abyss grant a superb Search and Spot scores, especially good since they allow you to get a better Spot skill with the lack of Wisdom; however, the real winner here is Search (I think you can find just about everything by taking 1; that’s a superb tactic in terms of finding most traps and secret doors, as well as getting a clue). Enthrall, Fascination and Otherworldly Countenance blend real well. Joie de Vivre mostly helps with granting a solid boost to skill checks, which helps a lot when trying to activate a dorje or psicrown with UPD, but Sublime Chord allows you to use it more times and with better results, so it’s not that strong. Sense Link grants you spells you wouldn’t have otherwise gained through Beguiler, making you a nice spy when coupled with Invisibility. Much like other builds, the existence of blindsight early on offsets the benefit of blindsense, but because the latter is limited to a few uses per day, blindsense becomes your short range alert, so they complement rather than oppose, which is good; and no, because Vow of Poverty becomes illegal, you don’t get True Seeing so it’s even better, more because this form of blindsight is extraordinary, something that only Darkstalker can counter (but you can use it on an Antimagic Field, so yeah…); again, this is why the Spirit aspect or Wis 15 would have worked (I mean, it says “bonus feat” but generally you need to qualify for that feat, you know). Death Holds no Mysteries seems counter-intuitive, as you’ve stated, because as a Hellbred you’re probably gonna face death real quick but you can’t return unless someone uses Resurrection or True Resurrection on you, so the loss is minimized.


    Score: 4 (using the “all skills as class skills” clause is really good, and you complemented most of the class abilities that could be enhanced with feats. However, the last level is somewhat killed because the race itself makes it hard to return to life, and Heightened Senses only works at a 35% of its full potential.)

    Overall: 15.5 (3.875)
    I feel really bad that the experiment was reduced in potential by such an unfortunate situation like the conflict between devil-touched and Exalted feats. The build has some promise, taking into consideration the intention to ignore magic items as well as the fluff which really captures the idea of someone who wishes to sense the hardest of things. If I were a DM, I would really think it twice and probably have a small chance (can’t say how much, but no less than 5% and no more than…40%) to ignore that clause and just let you play the character with the Exalted feats and the devil-touched feats and the Abyssal Heritor feats in combination. I really dug the idea of someone who uses seduction and deception in a noble way, in order to redeem her condemned soul, and the build was developed around that idea. The funny thing is that the core of your build, which is the spellcasting and to an extent the skills and senses are not affected that much. This is a build that needs revision; with a few tweaks, you can reclaim most of the illegal abilities and make the build just as strong, if not more, than it actually is.


    Annette the Impure
    Spoiler
    Show
    Originality
    Spoiler
    Show
    Goodness gracious, yet another “woman of the easy life”? I feel really bad for Jozan, although we all know he’s a follower of the Burning Hate so evidently he wouldn’t have wanted to see a “supposedly good” wraith putting him in his place.

    Now, as for HOW original it may be…it’s certainly interesting, to say the very least. The bard entry was expected, but oddly enough only a few actually dared to enter as a bard, so it’s not that unoriginal at all. Heck, you’re the only one who took ACTUAL bard levels; the other took Prestige Bard levels; a daring move, of course, one that will cause no loss of points because the surprise factor was someone actually using the Bard. Wraith is also a rather unique choice, given that it’s not a ghost but it still allows incorporeality, plus it has the spawning ability based on Constitution instead of Strength. I almost lament it wasn’t a Dread Wraith, because of what offered (but that’s not the case anyways), but a simple wraith is enough, since you intended to make it progress through class levels.

    One other thing I like, but that could have been perfected a bit (and let’s face it, there’s two conflicting points to the issue) is the lateral thinking: basically, you created a character who’s level 27 but that advanced as a character of 20th level (or a little bit). It needs a bit of polish (I’ll speak of that in Elegance), but it’s certainly a nice trick to showcase. Just in case: was it shown on the WotC forums, or BG, or Frank’s forum, or even here by any chance?


    Score: 4.5 (a Wraith was certainly odd, and the way you suddenly reclaim your powers is equally as good. The only slight problem was the addition of Paladin of Freedom, which is a regular trick with Bard; however, having Bard by itself is no problem because only one other chose that path, and everyone else tried NOT to use Bard to enter so it’s a daring choice in going the expected choice).

    Power
    Spoiler
    Show
    This will be a complex observation, since it’s a class that effectively has two varied progressions. I’ll first analyze the character’s path as a living creature, and then her path as an emancipated spawn.

    As a living creature, she is certainly quite the character. She absolutely loves her Charisma, what with Paladin of Freedom adding Divine Grace and uses of Turn Undead, Bard adding great arcane spellcasting, Snowflake Wardance and Insightful Strike (I’ll assume for a moment you mean Intuitive Attack) adding Wisdom and Charisma to your attacks (at least Wisdom, since Snowflake Wardance means you need to use a slashing weapon, and unless you can craft a crude axe or something that is usually not an option), and then into Ardent Dilettante for advancing the undoubtedly nice Bard spellcasting. However, if I were to analyze your character’s utility in battle…it’s very little. Vow of Poverty requires a good influx of power to balance the loss of magic items, and that is usually provided by full arcane (Sorcerer, Wizard) or full divine (Cleric OR Druid) spellcasting; Bard spells are usually good but not spectacular to complement the vow. The character only barely reaches minimum BAB on her career as a living follower of Lastai (why it always appears to me as Lashtai is extremely odd, perhaps it’s because it has some similarities to Lakshmi). The spells chosen are nice, since it has some of the good defenses and a way to cause damage over time (Wounding Whispers), which I find is a key component in the battle capabilities of a Bard. On the other hand, with varied uses of Diplomacy and Bluff, alongside Fascinate and…well, the fluff, you’re a magnificent party face, and you have several enchantment spells that aid on both sides of battle. While not gamebreaking by any means, it’s still a build that would allow for a low tier 3/high tier 4, which is reasonable enough.

    However, the wild swing comes with the exchange into a Wraith. The first two things you get are incorporealness and Constitution drain, which means you get a powerful attack and defense mode, plus Unnatural Aura allows most animal companions (you know, one of the key aspects of a Druid) to remain paralyzed in fear, which forces the best class in the game to fight in unorthodox ways. However, this comes with a drawback: you lose a lot of class levels, and need to survive four levels in order to reclaim pretty much everything you had. Of those, three levels only grant a small amount of spells, and two levels mostly grant the feats you had in life, so that means you’re still weaker than before. The good thing is that you’ll gain pretty much the same amount of XP from weaker monsters, and at CR 5-9 most monsters are not particularly powerful: incorporeality and Con drain are definitely strong points, so basically you gain quite a load of power from Emancipated Spawn.

    However, there’s one problem on Elegance that reflects quite dearly on Power, and it’s one that’s better reflected in Elegance. I see one way in which you effectively deal with the problem, but the fact is that the other 78% is addressed, and a good deal of that power is not entirely recovered. Plus, I dunno if you could use Holy Radiance as an undead creature, because you would be taking damage yourself.


    Score: 3.5 (the career as a living character was more of a support option than a frontline combatant, and well inclined towards a jack of all trades depiction. The sudden change into Wraith made you weaker, but entry into Emancipated Spawn basically multiplied the benefits of the sudden exchange. However, the fact that the build is quite definitely a late bloomer has to be considered, since early on the build relies on combat, which your character mostly lacks, and the late-game status mostly forces you to be a supportive character, strictly behind a Cleric or Wizard, and quite behind a full Bard or Crusader in supportive abilities.)

    Elegance
    Spoiler
    Show
    My, we have a HUGE set of troubles in here. I’ll start with the beginning; this looks and feels like a practice in Theoretical Optimization, and this is generally a bad idea. The trick is awesome to showcase, but there’s a big problem in this build, and it’s one that the backstory didn’t really fix.

    Why, oh why, did your character never requested an Atonement!?!?!?!?!? All I can interpret is that Lastai herself agreed to support you, but there’s no real mention of Atonement, which is a key aspect in recovering Exalted feats. You see, Exalted feats behave a bit like the Paladin’s code; once you make a willful Evil act, the feat is lost. Unintentionally becoming a Wraith, for example, doesn’t cross that, but you become an Evil creature and essentially do evil things intentionally even under control of another Wraith does cross that. The trouble here is that you definitely need an Atonement for that to work, since although you can change your alignment pretty much willfully (and Libris Mortis suggests that, once freed from enslavement by another undead creature, the undead may seek to return to his or her former alignment), the recovery of powers is an entirely different thing.

    But that’s not the big problem: I might concede that Lastai, interested in bringing you back to her flock, decided that it was proper to give you Atonement for the sins committed while being an undead creature, considering that they were done partly unwillingly (compelled rather than literally dominated). However, getting Exalted feats means you should ascribe to the rules in the Book of Exalted Deeds, and there’s one thing that definitely seems troubling here: the use of your Constitution drain to create more undead. This is a very, very, very flimsy reading, since Libris Mortis and Book of Exalted Deeds have almost extremely opposite views on undead; at the very least, it drives one to think of the little fluff about redemption, and the one example that the book has: the Redeemed Villain. That, or obviously one character who’s quite similar to yours in terms of seeking redemption: Eludecia. The concept of the game is that when a character embraces goodness again, it willfully seals off abilities that may be considered evil: for example, Eludecia willfully negates herself the ability to drain the ability scores of creatures, even though most Good spells allow damage and even drain. As a Chaotic, Exalted Good character, your views might be a bit more relaxed: you might consider that using your Constitution drain isn’t inherently a bad thing, so you might use it once or twice. However, what you might have huge problems around is when you insist you can USE that in order to create spawn. That’s not just Evil (because you’re literally killing the individual in a twisted form of redemption), that’s actually NOT CHAOTIC (because you’re robbing the individual of its own free will, and actually obeying orders from you IN THE AFTERLIFE). So, unless you decide to seal off your spawn ability (which is a great deal of the power you would otherwise have), you’d be constantly going against your Paladin of Freedom code AND quite probably the Exalted feats. That means you’d constantly need Atonement, and Lastai, while a good deity, will probably disagree with your actions and eventually refuse to give it, hence you’d permanently lose a great deal of your power; as well, if you go too far in crushing the freedom of others, you’d probably lose your Bard powers, making you no better than a commoner. Do consider that.

    However, the other thing is that, while a good idea to showcase the TO trick, it does violate one of the precepts of the competition: creating a 20th level character build. While it goes with the spirit of the competition (a 20th level character has XP equivalent to a 20th level character), it doesn’t go with the letter of the competition (you should create a 20th level character, not a 27th level character). It’s certainly a nice build (since you’d be effectively ECL 27th, but technically 9th level), and a very nice trick to showcase, but not one that follows the rules. I’ll deck points in this (and by now, you should figure the points are negative), but not because of showcasing the build; instead, it’s because the build has other issues that have to be resolved, and they invalidate the build although not the trick.

    There’s one more thing I wish to address, and that is…how in heavenly tarnation you read the Wraith’s rules? Savage Species doesn’t have a wraith monster class, but it has a wraith monster template. The template allows you to take a sample character and transform it into a wraith, but it leaves you with LA +7, something that legally cannot be removed until ECL 21st. That means you’d need to be at least ECL 8th to qualify, or perhaps ECL 25th (the 18 levels you had before, then apply the template which means you gain the level adjustment), and the last few levels would make you ECL 28th with the powers of a character at level 21st. Otherwise, you couldn’t use the Wraith because it would rely on how much LA you could get, and a monster class where there’s a monster template means you’d have to follow the rules of the class and the template, meaning you’d start at ECL 12th at the very least (5 HD plus the LA +7). There’s several degrees of wrong in this, which directly invalidates the build. Really, it would have been a bit better if you used Shadow instead of Wraith, mostly because the latter has a monster class progression, albeit rather exaggerate for my tastes. However, I fear I’ll have to be legalistic in this one, and be too severe. Don’t get me wrong: the trick is superb, but messing into the rules of Savage Species on monster characters requires a great deal of maneuvering in order to make it work.

    So…is there good things to the build? If I were to analyze it just at the living career, there’s certainly no troubles related to that. Since you haven’t died, you can’t qualify for the last level of Ardent Dilettante, but you stop at level 18th so you’re mostly fine. The character is a nice supporter during her living career, and it’s an honest-to-goodness build before trying the undead shenanigans, trying to support her power with Vow of Poverty and Nimbus of Light to develop some solid defenses, and complementing the rest with bardic spellcasting to form a superb defense and support without much offense. I miss a bit the use of Devoted Performer, but that would require the use of actual Paladin levels and going Lawful Good; certainly, it could have been a nice “optional” to see, where if Paladin of Freedom levels counted as Paladin levels (and I could argue they do), you would have 8 uses of Bardic Music and your Smite Evil would have dealt a respectable 8 points of damage. With Charging Smite and another level in Paladin of Freedom, you could have worked a respectable damage while making a charge. With the optional in place, a dip in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian would have granted you a Charging Pounce, since Charging Smite overrides the usual requirement of the normal Smite (though it would require a very strict reading, and would probably qualify for a single attack of the pounce, but you’d get several chances to use it if it otherwise failed). It also boasts some devotion to the classes, meaning you don’t make dips in the strictest sense of the word (4 levels in each mostly overrides the concept of a build). However, what good the build has only adds to an already negative score, so it won’t change a bit.


    Score: 1 (sorry mate, but the build has flaws above and beyond the idea of showcasing a build. Remember I told you that the trick required some work? This is the reason. Actually, I would have given the build a -1.5 because, even though the build has some serious flaws, the core of the build is actually pretty good and would have worked on general play, plus I really enjoyed the lateral thinking and some of the tricks elaborated. The build was pretty simple, but the attempt to showcase a trick was what killed it. Oh, and as a minor thought: you ACTUALLY gain the ECL of the character, so you’d actually be a 27th level character, not a 9th level character, for purposes of XP and whatnot. It also means you’re an Epic character.)

    Use of Secret Ingredient
    Spoiler
    Show
    Despite the modest attempt in using the ingredient, the build was showcasing a trick, so Ardent Dilettante wasn’t really necessary. Sublime Chord + Virtuoso would have been just as powerful, and what you really showcase is making an Epic character with the XP required to make a 20th level character, so quite definitely Ardent Dilettante is a garnish, not the main entrée. Of what I see that works, you manage to magnify the idea of getting more feats, but that’s mostly because of Vow of Poverty (but the idea of getting lots of feats is still a good synergy); sadly, someone else did the same and did it better. Enthrall, on the other hand, makes sense in a build such as this: you have lots of enchantments and bardic music, and the ability serves as a way to conserve your spellcasting. On the other hand, you could have gotten Good Hope by means of spellcasting and it would have been far stronger, so this cancels out. Another thing is that you at least attempted to get blindsense, without going later on and getting Lifesense: you had access to a strictly better feat and ignored it, so it’s at the very least a good thought. As for the rest…don’t see much use to it, though you do have Survival to contrast with the scent ability, something I find others might not have thought of.

    However, I don’t see what real benefits you got from the PrC, aside from bonus feats and spellcasting advancement, since going straight Bard would have granted better BAB, more skill points and more uses of Bardic Music (Suggestion, Inspire Greatness, Song of Freedom, better Inspire Courage that would have been multiplied by Words of Creation). Heck, you could have gone Troubadour of Stars and gotten access to sanctified spells, upon which you’d have gotten some gems as Greater Luminous Armor and Exalted Raiment, and you could have gotten more than Ardent Dilettante, which with the Wraith trick would have allowed you to reinforce your spellcasting and become an Outsider while still retaining your incorporeal abilities (darn, that’s a really nice trick! Wonder, wonder…) This is a problem, because it doesn’t redeem the entry as anything more than showcasing TO, and the idea of that little quote was mostly to show how the PrC could be abused; here, it’s mostly to show how Emancipated Spawn is made of awesome.


    Score: 1.5 (the build doesn’t seem to benefit a lot from Ardent Dilettante, but rather from Emancipated Spawn; that’s what you’re showcasing. There are some thoughts to the use of the class, but more than half of the abilities are plausibly ignored, gained only as minor stuff to what you get, and it doesn’t reinforce your abilities during your career as a living being).

    Overall: 10.5 (2.625)
    While I liked the story and the trick showcased, the build doesn’t show how awesome an Ardent Dilettante can be. It mostly shows how you can get to be an Epic character with the amount of XP a 20th level character would require, and even then the trick has some flaws. The trick has promise, but it has to be refined, and mostly requires the use of a spawning creature that’s actually decent but without an excessive LA score so that the trick works. The build requires being analyzed as two builds in one, and while the undead build certainly seems impressive, the living build could use some work. That makes the character entirely dependent on the DM’s whim, which is bad because it doesn’t truly showcase the actual power of the build OR the utility of the PrC.

  2. - Top - End - #242
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Arleigh Skye
    Spoiler
    Show
    Originality
    Spoiler
    Show
    Hmm, daring to go with Aasimar, then going against the usual call and into Ranger, then another wild shift into Knight of the Weave but ignoring the use of Sword of the Arcane Order (which you could easily qualify), then getting into Ardent Dilettante to use the growth of the class for Knight of the Weave, and finally advancing with Ranger. Certainly it’s not the most usual of entries, considering the class pretty much begs Bard or Factotum entry. However, it’s certainly not the most unusual of entries. It’s a very vanilla entry, with the story far too short to entice the reader into the meat of the build. Granted; it’s nice to take it safe (and that gives points on Elegance), but not much into Originality. I’d say it’s above average, since it deals with unusual entry requirements on a pretty normal chassis. That adds a few more points, because I see how you decided to go with the raw power of Ranger and Knight of the Weave instead of going for choices that would be considered common, such as Sword of the Arcane Order (again, but that’s granted) and using KotW as a trampoline for Sublime Chord (which would be insanely difficult), which should influence a bit more under Elegance (simplicity) rather than Power (but we’ll see about that).


    Score: 3.5 (while a pretty simple, vanilla entry, the use of Knight of the Weave for its own sake rather than as a trampoline or using any of the other options makes it all the more interesting. However, compared to other builds, yours requires something that makes it shine.)

    Power
    Spoiler
    Show
    One of the themes I see with this build is adaptation. I see such distant things like using Boomerangs instead of bows, but also not neglecting the melee portion; also, using light armor over heavier armor in order to take advantage of the Ranger’s abilities. However, upon closer examination, I see that the choices done seem rather weak. I’ll elaborate quickly.

    First, the ability scores. Knight of the Weave has a peculiar advancement regarding arcane spellcasting ability, with a bunch of very nice spells alongside swifter access to them, but requires a good amount of Charisma to pull off. Note that I said “good”, not “astounding”. The big problem lies in that it makes the normally not-so-MAD Ranger chassis a rather MAD build. Basically, you need good Strength to use your main melee weapon (a greatsword, if I recall correctly), Dexterity for AC (recall you use light armor, not heavy armor) and ranged attack bonus (for your boomerang), Constitution for HP (that’s usually important, and I see a 12 which is only above average but with your defenses might not be enough), decent Wisdom (you want to cast Ranger spells, though I’ll speak about that a bit later) and good Charisma for arcane spellcasting (and UMD, but there’s other ways to deal with UMD: you have Good Hope and spells to work that out…wait, no Eagle’s Splendor. What were you thinking of?). That’s 5 out of 6 abilities, so you’re very spread out in what you can do, and you chose what’s probably the third most important ability to build up. The big problem I see is that, while arcane spellcasting is a great deal of your power, you don’t use Charisma more than you’d use, say, Strength or Dexterity. In fact, Dexterity (which I see as the most important ability score in your build) is quite weak, considering that you’ll be using light armor and there’s very few AC buffs around that I can see (Shield is one…and that’s it). What’s worse is that I don’t see many non-AC defenses, which is a doubly bad tactic because you’re intending to go melee alongside ranged, and with a strong weapon to boot.

    The second point is the unfortunate circumstance of Wisdom compared to Ranger spells. Craft Wand is a very useful way to deal with the lack of Ranger spellcasting (you can create spells from your own wands, which is great), but the biggest problem is that your Wisdom, although allowing you to cast 2nd level spells, doesn’t grant you the slots to do so. Focusing on Knight of the Weave is reasonable, given that you want to have 6th level arcane spellcasting as your calling card, but by Ardent Dilettante 7th you had that requirement fulfilled. Meanwhile, adding one or two more levels in Ranger would have granted at least one spell slot for 2nd level Ranger spells, which would have opened the option of self-constructing 2nd level Ranger spells, pretty much a multiplicative factor in your spellcasting potential because you’d have access to Barkskin for your AC, Owl’s Wisdom for your Will saves, Swift Haste for when you need to cast the Haste spell without expending your arcane spellcasting slots, Animalistic Power for a quicker boost to Str, Dex and Con; Hunter’s Sense for greater damage, and so on. I think the weight of an extra 6th level spell slot and 2 more spells seems to outweigh the benefits of opening 2nd level Ranger spell slots, but since you added Craft Wand, the benefit would effectively switch out. It would have also allowed you to get spells with higher CL on the side of Ranger, meaning spells like Barkskin and Resist Energy would have been slightly more powerful than they currently are (even with the half-casting; Practiced Spellcaster neatly obviates that requirement so you’d get at least CL 9th on those spells). Switching two points of Charisma with Wisdom (or just ONE!) would have granted you a very nice selection of spells to work with, and a bit more Will to boot. This is because of how point buy works: raising Cha from 15 to 16 costs two points, while raising Wis from 12 to 14 costs 2 points; effectively, you’re raising two points for the cost of one, and since you’ll be boosting Charisma anyways (at least to even levels), you’d be getting more spellcasting bang for your buck. I see that spells are a great deal of your power, so it feels like neglecting your spellcasting just for a meager benefit (though Knight of the Weave spells aren’t meager at all).

    Although mentioned as a passing point, the use of magic items is slightly frowned upon; you see, you’ll never know when you’ll have the right magic item on your disposal. I think I’ve been quite vocal on that one, but there’s one thing I do like: you’re being conservative on the choice of magic items…well, mostly up to level 18th with Ring of Evasion (that thing is expensive!) Part of your build’s power is getting Aptitude weapons for Boomerang Daze, which in paper is good (attack multiple times, daze multiple times, and if you deal more damage you’ll daze even harder, meaning you neutralize enemies in more ways than one; in the table, it may not be that legal (and that’s an issue that goes right there on Elegance). I won’t deck you that much on the use of magic items because, up until 18th level, you’re pretty conservative with what you get (+1 weapons are not that hard to get at 5th level) and not making yourself so dependent on magic items (such as Blindfolds of True Darkness for the blindsight or Cloaks of Starmantle for the unique form of defense or even tomes for inherent bonuses to scores). Since part of that wealth will be consumed creating wands, it should be reasonable to expect that you’ll get as many wands as you want (of the spells you can cast, at the very least) which add a good pinch of power.


    Score: 3.5 (good use of resources, Boomerang Daze on different weapons means you work as a debuffer kind of character, but 2nd level Ranger spells could have been reached easily, turned into wands, and granted greater power. Also, a bit too far from the ideal gish which would have granted lots of cookie points.)

    Elegance
    Spoiler
    Show
    There’s many complex builds, so seeing a simple one is really refreshing. The small table on the sources area is really neat, and shows how less cluttered your build is (though some builds are even less cluttered). But that’s mostly a comment.

    What I do like is going for the simplest of options, staying true to the power of the PrCs rather than trying to play it up a bit. Knight of the Weave and Suel Arcanamach are usually steps for the all-powerful Sublime Chord class, but on their own they are very good classes (if only a bit odd because they have medium BAB for a class that seeks to be a gish, using heavy armor and generally engaging in combat). The fact that you seek more Ranger levels is also a great touch, though perhaps a bit more work would have netted a very nice class ability (namely, metamagic feats and Fast Metamagic); still, since your theme uses a lot of tracking, getting the Ranger tracking abilities seems even more fitting than an ability that would be otherwise wasted, so props for that (it also aids on the secret ingredient, so more points there).

    There are some issues, though, and that’s with Boomerang Daze. Basically, Boomerang Daze has the problem of only being useful with boomerangs (and of those, only Talenta and Xen’drik boomerangs). So namely, you could only use them with boomerangs. Now, the reading of Aptitude weapon enhancement is a bit shaky, and it allows for the oft-abused trick of Lightning Maces with non-mace weapons; the controversy behind that reading has often removed Aptitude from many books, and part of your combat strategy involves using non-boomerang weapons on that regard. That means the following: wherever Aptitude is banned or the trick disabled, your build will take a pretty serious hit, since otherwise you’ll be relying on your main damage, which is good but could be better. There will be a point reduction from that, but it’ll be minor because the trick is otherwise good, and if you went with boomerangs (which aren’t half bad, actually) you could deliver some nice damage there (Power Throw, Brutal Throw, Quick Draw and Far Shot work wonders on making Boomerang Daze all the more powerful, plus it would have given points in Originality) so the fact that you’re proficient in them doesn’t null your tactic that much (all you need to do is change your tactics, and with Rapid Shot you could reliably lock people down with daze, a very unusual tactic for a Ranger). However, that tidbit is part of your build and thus has to be marked down.

    Another thing to mark down: not all DMs use level adjustment buy-off. Usually, and this is a good reminder: most competitors place notes indicating the progression they’d use with LA buyoff. Since LA buyoff is not always certain, the build’s last level is affected a bit; that shouldn’t be so crucial since what you get is mostly +1 BAB and Swift Tracker, alongside more Fortitude and Reflex saving throws (which are pretty decent already). It’s another minor pegging, more of a gentle reminder than anything else.

    I also like what you did with entry requirements. Usually, the tough ones are the spellcasting requirement, the Str-based skill requirement and the exotic weapon proficiency requirement; those three are nicely swatted; Swim is a rather useful skill to have, the EWP option was used to qualify for something else as well (Boomerang Daze) and you’re giving some use to both your arcane and divine spellcasting (the latter much more than the former, though). Minor pegging for not making them so clear at the end, since I usually go for whether you qualify for the Str-based skill requirement first, but nothing to scoff at.

    Oh, and yes…has your character died? Most went all the way to qualify for the 10th level, but the story wasn’t that clear on that regard. Since those are very specific special requirements, you might assume that your character was revived in order to qualify, but it’s a miss that should be considered.


    Score: 4.5 (most of the concerns are minor, albeit consequential. Aptitude is the biggest quirk in here because it really doesn’t downplay your power but rather your options, considering that it would have made you a unique form of Ranger that uses throwing weapons rather than bow or sword. LA buyoff is also noticeable but not as deadly since the sweet spot was achieved some time ago.)

    Use of Secret Ingredient
    Spoiler
    Show
    Right from the start, I see that you wanted your tracking ability to be superior. The Ranger adds the Track feat, Ardent Dilettante adds the scent ability, and you top it off with Uncanny Scent and Improved Scent. That, combined with the superior bonuses to all Heightened Senses skills (Spot and Listen are huge, Survival is just as large, Search not that much but it’s not something to worry about) and how you deal with the other senses (True Seeing is very powerful but limited in moments it can be used, blindsense complements your olfactory abilities with extrasensory abilities) allows for a very surprising showcase of all five senses (six, what with Sense Link) turned into very delicate sensors. The fact that you used the feats to improve class abilities synergizes wonderfully. Did I mention you also have Detect Magic, so basically you’re inescapable regardless of what defenses your enemy might have (I think you fool even Darkstalker, congrats on that one). Then you add the Favored Enemy bonuses…yep, you generally get close to +35 on those Spot and Listen checks (not really, just a mildly exaggerate claim, but not so far from the truth, what with 23 ranks + 1 from Wis + 6 from Heightened Senses +4 from favored enemy…) So…how about the rest?

    Well…you certainly used your 9/10ths spellcasting progression to advance both arcane and divine spellcasting, so that’s good news. Good Hope helps quite a lot, given that it boosts several traits including skill checks (meaning your UMD checks are much better), and you seem to provide a very good use to getting all skills as class skills (that means more UMD, though you already had the skill as a class skill via Knight of the Weave). Blindsense, unlike other builds, has a reason to exist over here: although supplanted by spells such as True Seeing and scent, their use can either be disabled or nullified, hence allowing blindsense to serve as a last-resort option. The fact that Uncanny Scent, which would normally disable blindsense, appears one level later suggests the level isn’t killed. See it Before is the big kicker in here, because it basically makes True Seeing kinda pointless, what with having scent, sight and hearing all pointing up potential illusions. The Will save might be a tad troubling here because it’s the lowest save you have, but it allows two saves to happen, so that increases the percentage of success; the fact that you can do that before the enemy enters regular reach range means you have a good defense against illusions. See it Again is just as good as the rest, so there’s no point on mentioning that out.

    That leaves Enthrall which…I don’t see too much use, though you have a huge Charisma score to work out. The character seems quite independent but still useful to a group (as a tracker or debuffer), so suddenly gaining an enchantment doesn’t seem like the kind of ability your theme would benefit from. What’s worse, the fact that your DC is very good thanks to your Charisma doesn’t mean much, considering that the ability score could have gone somewhere else. Aside from that, and probably Lore (but the Lore ability is always interesting, and you get to use synergy abilities to enhance that), the rest of the class certainly fits. What’s most interesting about this build is that it fits seamlessly with Ardent Dilettante, given that other options would have been rather odd; it’s a class that uses Ardent Dilettante to its best, however awkward the use of Enthrall may be. Heck, it leads me to think: was Ardent Dilettante made for a bard, or actually for a Ranger? The use of scent and blindsense, which are sense-based abilities, seems to lead upon that. No use of Bard nor Rogue, a solid amount of skill points, with the only caveat of a loss of BAB (that’s what might make it not so useful for Rangers), but I find a lot of sense in adding the PrC into your build in comparison to others, or simply going full Knight of the Weave and Ranger (although more levels of Knight of the Weave wouldn’t have been bad in any case).


    Score: 5 (even though Enthrall isn’t really an ability you might use a lot, the fact that you considered it as part of your build means you thought of the class as the most important part of your build, and to your fortune it shows. I was surprised for the use of Scent, an ability I consider most builds should have if not having blindsense, blindsight or tremorsense just because melee characters need more fun.)

    Overall: 16.5 (4.125)
    There are few builds over here that showcase the utility of Ardent Dilettante. Your build has quite some utility and some usefulness regarding a team, but yours is the build that showcases a bit more of the Dilettante’s tricks. It’s a build that needs some polish in terms of its core (the ability scores), but with some well-placed effort it could do well as a useful part of a tier 3 team. It’s very simple, quite elegant, but pretty vanilla on the fluff; spiced a bit, such as giving more relevance to the boomerangs, could have given a spicy flavor. It’s certainly not that generic, but the lack of Favored Enemies is a good example of how unspecific it is as well. All in all, while a very good build, it’s not necessarily an entertaining one, but a few more minutes in the burner can definitely make a difference and a memorable PC, NPC or even villain if you decide, one that’s almost hound-like in its pursuit (and remember, not all villains have to be good, nor Good will never have differences with Good despite what Celestials have taught us).


    V’Grax
    Spoiler
    Show
    Originality
    Spoiler
    Show
    Wow, sha’ir!? You managed to make me look at the Dragon Compendium, you know… It’s a very odd form of entry to Ardent Dilettante, but one that oddly covers the part of arcane and divine spellcasting (though it’s odd not to see Savant, which really looked like THE entry way into Ardent Dilettante). Also, impressed to see Blood Magus into the fray: I’ve always wondered how useful the PrC may be, considering that it’s one class with lots of flavor and some impressive abilities (+2 to Constitution, Damage Reduction) but isn’t mentioned that much. What’s equally odd is the fact that you used the elf (because High Elf is the basic elf, while the Grey Elf is what you might consider as the true “high elf”) in a very unusual way; while taking advantage of Dexterity, you didn’t went for Ranger, Rogue or Wizard with it which makes it odd.

    Though, I’ll smack you a bit for something. I would have loved, if only the fluff, that you added something from Al Qadim. Sha’ir are from Al Qadim (if my memory isn't hazy), and while mechanical stuff has to be from recognized books, fluff is quite mutable and thus you could use a nice defining quirk from it. I like the way the story is organized, though, giving a very strong flavor that could be definitely expressed as Arabian (albeit not Muslim, but then again we’re not going for precision on that one). It was a fun and interesting read, though your efforts to remove some of the mechanics from the story have their flaws (“second echelon of spellcasting” works wonders to refluff “2nd level spells”, but I feel you could have done slightly better with Precipitate Breach refluffed into “the sheer luck brought by Salim’s magic, whom ripped a breach into a sentient demiplane” would have made the story even more unique). There’s some strength in the story, and the choice of classes and abilities is certainly unique, but it lacks just a little bit more.


    Score: 4.5 (would have loved to see more Al Qadim, but otherwise, a very unusual entry. Also, sha’ir!?)

    Power
    Spoiler
    Show
    With Dragon Magazine content, you either make a nice hit or a nice miss. I feel utterly unqualified to measure the true strength of a sha’ir, mostly because the spell selection is utterly complex. Basically, you get access to the ENTIRE sorcerer/wizard spell list (a great boon, and with the concept of being able to gather spells you don’t know it blurs the utility of the sorcerer with the versatility of the wizard), and the way you gather the spells makes it insanely strong; I’d fear the sha’ir is quite definitely a Tier 1 character just because of the sheer amount of spells at its disposal. The fact that you also get divine spells of certain categories means you also dabble on the cleric’s spell list, making your spell choices even LARGER. Those two things make the sha’ir just too powerful to behold, because if a wizard can do something with some preparation, the sha’ir needs only 6 or so minutes and a good Diplomacy score.

    BUT, the Diplomacy score comes into play. Unless your Diplomacy is off the scale, the sha’ir prized spellcasting suddenly drops out. The DC for the Diplomacy check is just absurd: at 1st level, you get mostly 4 ranks, plus whatever you get from Charisma, plus 1 for being sha’ir, plus 2 if you’re using known arcane spells, and they only last for a minute; on the other hand, asking for too many spells at the same time is just painful. Then there’s the fact of spell retrieval: can you only ask for ONE spell, or for several but the level of the spell stacks (hence, if you were to ask for at least 3 or 4 6th level spells, you’d have a modifier to your Diplomacy score of -18/-24?).

    This makes the sha’ir just as shaky as the truenamer, because their success hangs upon a single ability check. There’s also the thing that if you multiclass, you don’t gain more bonuses to that Diplomacy check because of being a pure sha’ir, so if you multiclass, your spellcasting (arguably your best feature) goes down the drain because you have to be painstakingly careful on choosing your spells (to ensure a reasonable Diplomacy check of around 5 or lower). The sheer set of variables involved in the choice of spells makes the sha’ir a true wild card, either the best class in game (period!) or a nuisance to play.

    However, the rest of the abilities have to be considered. I think a very clever move was to get Scarification, because you can effectively increase your spellcasting by choosing utility spells (those you’d use if you were a Sorcerer) and have them on demand while you send your gen familiar to get the spells you really need; it’s like having an Ultimate Magus in play, but with divine spells on top of that. The loss of two spellcasting levels (one from Blood Magus, one from Ardent Dilettante) hurts a bit, but oddly enough helps your Diplomacy requirement, so despite your power slowing down a bit (roughly at levels 6th and 14th, ironically the turning points of low-level play and semi-epic play), it doesn’t really lowers that drastically. The fact that the sha’ir casts like both a sorcerer and a wizard (spells at odd levels, but casts more spells than a Wizard) makes that loss not so earth-shattering. Blood Magus really seems to deal with gaining resilience while casting spells while attempting to minimize the loss of spell levels.

    Then there’s the situation of manipulating two more creatures; a gen familiar and a homunculus. One serves as a bizarre HP pool while the other has the functions of a spy, but neither of them are really that powerful. One of them is essential (your gen familiar is dead, you get no more spells) while the other is potentially lethal (2d10 on a character with d4 HD and Con 12 might have some problems with HP, so something that deals 11 points of damage on average definitely doesn’t help). Losing one of the two means your power is constantly threatened, something a wizard usually has little trouble with (losing the wizard’s spellbook is bad, but the contingencies they prepare mean that such a loss is minor; losing a gen familiar requires an entirely different method of contingency).

    Feat-wise, I see that there are some very good choices out there, but some far too delayed. Extend Spell at 15th level is a very bad idea, and Twin Spell at 20th is even more. Meanwhile, Anarchic Bloodline at 6th level and Power in the Blood as your 9th level bonus feat are bad choices: while you get more spells to choose at, you can already technically choose them (all you do is basically get them as spells known, making them easier to get) and the increased amount of spells you get makes slightly more sense later on. You might wonder whether Extend Spell at 6th level is a bad idea, but trust me, it’s not: by that level, you can take a 3rd level spell slot and expend a spell such as Mage Armor (which adds to your defense) for half a day, making it a very reasonable choice; same for 10 min/level spells. Twin Spell should be a potent method to increase your spellcasting potential, and thus should be roughly at the level you get Power in the Blood or slightly later. Anarchic Bloodline and Power in the Blood could be delayed, since what you get from them starts to get good at 11th level or later, which means you could get Anarchic Bloodline at 12th level, Practiced Spellcaster at 15th, and Power in the Blood probably as your 18th or 20th level feat. While this may be a situation with Elegance (feat organization), it directly affects your power as you gain access to great metamagic feats too late, while the return is not as potent as you’d like to.


    Score: 4 (the Sha’ir is potentially a Tier 1 class, but the Diplomacy and gen familiar make it a risky endeavor. Blood Magus adds a lot to your power, but the feats reduce that amount. I could easily give it a 5 just because of the sheer power of the sha’ir spellcasting, but I seem appropriate to make it 4 just because of how difficult it was to measure the power level of the class.)

    Elegance
    Spoiler
    Show
    First thing I liked was the “I Want”, “I Could Use” and “I Think” sections, as well as how you tackled the dual spellcasting requirement. For the latter, sha’ir is still a surprising option, one that wouldn’t happen if the Dragon Compendium was banned (I think this would be reason enough to ban it, what with Wizards and Sorcerers mocking the gen familiar but soiling their robes when noticing their full spellcasting ability). I’m also surprised with the way you handled returning to life (fulfilling the Blood Magus requirement); while I consider that such “Special” requirements are automatically fulfilled for purposes of qualification, I do like that the way to handle the requirement was cleverly handled by making it a requirement for something else. Using Anarchic Bloodline (though I find other feats could have worked just fine, and I really expected an elemental bloodline as per the sha’ir fluff) was another nice touch. As you said, you gained 100% return on the Ardent Dilettante progression, and it places a precedent for PrCs such as Geomancer (really; you can cast 1st level arcane and divine spells, thus you qualify and still get 100% return), and it showcases a very nice trick…which gets frustrated by the fact Sha’ir isn’t exactly legal on most tables. But it makes you think: if Dragon Compendium gets legal, Sha’ir gets even more power by just dabbling on theurge-inclined classes, and the thought of having a Sha’ir/Wizard/Ultimate Magus build is blood-shivering. However, there’s always the looming trouble of using Dragon Compendium, a source which is legal for competition but not as legal for most tables, meaning that your build can be made or broke just by allowing or disallowing one book.

    Regarding the former: using Blood Magus to gain some measure of wealth through custom-made magic items to expand your spellcasting options is close to pure genius. While not overtly depending on magic items, the fact that you can create your own from a very large list makes you have a good amount of spells almost at every moment, which with Anarchic Bloodline and Enthrall/Joie de Vivre means you’re rarely out of spells, and that’s great. The thoughts behind the choices are also elaborate and complete, showing you really thought of pretty much all the steps (I still get frustrated by the feat selection, though).

    Another thing is the simplicity: another build that has few if no dips, using a mixture of exotic (so to speak) classes with less exotic choices (Elf) and even some steps to achieve slightly greater power (namely, choosing the weights of Toughness and Great Fortitude in order to qualify for Blood Magus).

    Troubles in your build, though…I don’t seem to find that many. I still argue about the feat selection, particularly on the timing of the choices; metamagic should have appeared first because you’d get slightly more power from extended and twinned spells than from a small subset of powers, and the slight delay on CL could be offset at any moment after 14th level. This is a question of build elegance rather than complying with rules; the boost on Power you would have gotten from choosing the right feats at the right time would have made a strong difference on your Power, and hence it indirectly affects your Elegance.


    Score: 4.5 (timing, timing, timing! Timing in feat selections makes a great difference; the ability to choose more spells contrasts with the ability to enhance your spells, and that affects your Power. Otherwise, this would have been a very impressive build. Everything is well explained and detailed, just as I like it, so it’s that little spine that gives the nudge.)

    Use of Secret Ingredient
    Spoiler
    Show
    Alas, such a good build has to have an Achilles’ heel. Sadly, that’s the secret ingredient itself. Notice how many times I’ve mentioned how impressive the sha’ir was? This should have caused some concern to you, because I really didn’t saw how Ardent Dilettante aided on the sha’ir progression; what I see is how the use of both Blood Magus and Ardent Dilettante affect your sha’ir progression.

    Of what you do use…being a primarily charismatic character, Enthrall is quite definitely a strong choice. Sadly, your spellcasting brings that to play nearly four levels ago. And, your spellcasting isn’t exactly geared towards enchantment, so it showcases how little you expect to use that ability. The two things I see the most are the excellent use of an otherwise theurgic class (because sha’ir allows both arcane and divine spellcasting, but sadly that’s a thing of the sha’ir, not from Ardent Dilettante) and how important Joie de Vivre is for you (more skill checks = better Diplomacy = more spells).

    As for the rest, I see far too little use. Heightened Senses? You care little for senses, and neither your gen familiar nor your homunculus take benefit from that; the bonus applies only to the Ardent Dilettante and it’s a bonus, not effective ranks (recall that, do you?). Lore is mostly there just because; same for scent and blindsense, which see little use as you’re not the scout of the team. Seen it Before works a bit too flimsily with your gen familiar’s empathic link; while your empathic link is a sort of sense, it’s not a sense in the strictest mention of the word. What’s worse, after seeing how other classes take advantage of gaining ALL skills as class skills, not seeing that exploited is bad. What hurts the most is that the detour on Blood Magus means your Diplomacy is not properly exploited, so your Diplomacy will be low (and that affects your spellcasting). Ardent Dilettante doesn’t progress neither your gen familiar nor your homunculus, so you end up with two weights that request more care from you than the aid they may grant (and in the case of one, the aid it grants is invaluable). It really doesn’t feel like Ardent Dilettante adds anything to the build, and Blood Magus seems to add a bit more.

    But…it’s really hard to say that with the sha’ir. The class itself has things that depend greatly on class level, so multiclassing isn’t really an option. I’m surprised as to how good the spellcasting progression of the class was handled, but Blood Magus just smacks that idea out of my mind. I would have liked to see more, but really: Ardent Dilettante isn’t made for the Sha’ir.


    Score: 1.5
    (only the Good Hope SLA and the way spellcasting was handled really show here; the rest doesn’t blend on any circumstance, neither mechanically nor thematically. As other builds, this was really just to enter the competition, and not to showcase the beauty of the PrC.)

    Overall: 14.5 (3.625)
    I was quite amazed and surprised by the choice of sha’ir on the build, but this was really a build that would have taken advantage of all levels in Sha’ir instead of trying to take levels on a PrC that grants too little to advance into. You get three bonus feats; without Ardent Dilettante, you would have saved at least one feat and could have made a more conscious choice of the other two, and that’s bad because that could have been a great saving grace. In fact, Blood Magus is showcased in greater detail just because it offers a lot more to the build than Ardent Dilettante does (and if you had progressed farther, you would have gained immense benefits from it, such as Bloodseeking Spell, more HPs and the awesome Bloodwalk ability.) However, it’s a first-time showcase of a class that has lots of promise, if only because of its unique spellcasting ability; rest assured, while not showcasing the PrC, the build has great value on its own.

  3. - Top - End - #243
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    “Hazy” Vernal Equinox
    Spoiler
    Show
    Originality
    Spoiler
    Show
    A gray elf wizard going into archmage…can’t go more vanilla than that. If I go and tell you that 15 levels in Wizard and 5 levels in Archmage do the exact same effect as your build, except they grant an extra level worth of spellcasting, I wouldn’t be lying. And then you go Focused Specialist…

    Sigh.

    I really expect a bit of originality, but seeing another gray elf wizard just killed it. The other one at least had a twist; a follower of Lolth to be precise. There were other builds who were pretty vanilla but they still had some utility. This? I have a player that’s using a gray elf wizard, and that’s because it’s almost the default entry for wizard using Core mechanics (a good Dex/Int character, ability with longbow so that means it can deal decent damage on the first levels without relying on a crossbow), but what really killed it was the repetition.

    Now, I know it’s rare to see two builds whom are similar in a few aspects, but you could have at least tried something else. Going safe is good (and that will show off in Power) but not always the best move (that’ll be seen here).

    The tough part? I half-expected Virtuoso over here. Thing is, you need Perform to enter Ardent Dilettante; that’s for sure. Bard, hence, was the expected entry; not Wizard. How both blend is something best seen on Use of Secret Ingredient, but if anything, the theme could have saved it. By nixing Evocation, most of the sound spells are gone; with Enchantment, the other half is pretty much gone. That’s an entire theme gone down the drain, and the story simply doesn’t mix with the build because it’s a means to an end, not the end itself. From what I saw on an earlier build, and from what I’ve seen so far of yours, it’s not even a means to an end; it’s basically trying to hammer a square into a round hole. In fact, it’s a shocking disparity between fluff and crunch, since while the fluff suggests a sort of singing wizard, few things actually relate to singing AND wizardry. I could try, simply try, to find some sense to the build, and probably I could find it; maybe the Perform (string instrument) skill is actually useful somehow. But, and this is a big but, even trying to ignore the “it makes no sense!” voice hammering on my mind, I can’t see Perform (string instruments) as nothing less than the attempt to give some flavor to an otherwise entirely different build and trying to fulfill a requirement as well.

    Now, one thing I’ll consider, and that’s the Apprentice/Mentor feat. You’ll see a brutal hit to Elegance there, but otherwise it’s a rare feat to see. You might ask “why?”; you’ll see once I reach there.


    Score: 1 (Don’t think I have some bias against Wizard/Archmages or something; it’s just that, with so many people going with builds that used no Bard or Factotum as default entries, seeing another Wizard was really frustrating, and seeing a cookie-cutter build even more. You might argue that Sublime Chord was an expected entry; I rewarded the daring attempt to use the expected entry in a very different way, even though others might pummel Originality on that, because the other things used were truly amazing; on the other hand, a repeated character and a dissonance between fluff and crunch really don’t help on the story. Oh, and no pun intended ;) )

    Power
    Spoiler
    Show
    Of course, when speaking about Power, things differ. It’s a Wizard; hence, it’s Tier 1, and with Focused Specialist neglecting the three schools that’ll probably see the least use, alongside Archmage, you should probably expect a truly powerful character.

    Then the spells appear. The usual suspects, and with a huge amount of spells per day (with the Divination school pretty much memorized), imply that your character won’t be easy to beat (which makes the latter capture by Pazuzu highly unlikely; I mean, you have the chance of getting several Moments of Prescience and Foresights, not to mention Scrying up the wazoo!!). All chosen spells are the classic utility spells, going from the ever-useful Web, Stinking Cloud and Glitterdust to the unholy trio of Gate, Wish and Shapechange. With such a spell list, are you really, really, really sure Pazuzu tricked your character, or you merely used Wish to replace Pazuzu and the trapped character is actually the demon prince being tortured for eternity?

    That, of course, means you really don’t need the items you’ve stated. Others have gone safe and tried using Vow of Poverty (not always useful, but good attempts nonetheless) or tried to showcase their builds making items an optional choice, but you know I’m not a fan of seeing tomes as part of the “required equipment”. Sure, you’ll have an unbeatable Intelligence (which again begs the question; how the heck did you got cheated by Pazuzu!? I mean, you even have a Periapt of Wisdom, for goodness sakes!), but that doesn’t really show anything when a gray elf wizard already has enough power to essentially ignore that insane boost to Intelligence. Normally, that would be a huge hit to Power (and Elegance), but since your power is essentially unlimited, it makes no dent on it; in fact, you could be naked with your spellbook and you’d still win battles. That’s what Wizards do, no? Especially with Gates and Shapechange to become powerful creatures…


    Score: 5 (well, what else do you expect from Wizards, hunh? Then you add Archmage for CL 24th before level 20, and you can figure things aren’t gonna be harsh for you. I half-expected seeing Wish or Gate as a spell-like ability, but you really don’t need that; that’d be insult to injury.)

    Elegance
    Spoiler
    Show
    Last minute entry of the Swim skill in order to qualify, but I still err on the side of your character being unable to take Ardent Dilettante over 7th level. This is, of course, because of Spontaneous Divination. Rule of thumb: it pays to read the Errata.

    Quoting from the errata: “You can spontaneously cast any spell you know from the divination school by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level.” Any spell you know means only arcane spells, unless you know divine spells as well (Archivist, perhaps?) That alone makes your build’s last levels in Ardent Dilettante illegal, considering that the reading was flimsy in first place, and that most people know Complete Champion had errata because of Mythic Exemplar. It’s a rather simple ruling, so by the errata, you can’t cast spells from a divine source. I’d leave it as a bit of an oversight, but this is a serious one, because even without the errata the precedents that exist suggest that you don’t; besides, Detect Evil is also an arcane spell, so generally you go for that. Alternative Source Spell and Southern Magician are ways to deal with arcane <-> divine spellcasting, which while also rather flimsy ruled they do have some strong support.

    Another thing is not specifying that the required items were just suggestions. I could have worked with the fiddle, because it’s something that’s not very expensive; however, I don’t take it lightly with tomes, as I’ve stated several times they are very rare items and not something that everyone and their mother should have access to (not to mention they’re very expensive). Again, others suggested the items as optional belongings and I didn’t measure their power because of them; I didn’t measure your character’s power based on your items, since the character is powerful enough on its own. But, since most people decided to try and surprise me, I’ll make the decking minor; how’s a -.5 sound? (I presume it must taste like sh…ocolate chips made from dark chocolate and dipped in maraschino cherry elixir, with a dip of bismuth liquid on top, or probably a bit too harsh; if the latter, apologies but I have to be harsh.)

    Now, remember what I said about Apprentice and Mentor? Both feats (at least Mentor, but your choice of Apprentice – Entertainer also deals with it) suggest you eventually gain a pair of cohorts for minor services. While not Leadership in full suite, the fact that you eventually get an apprentice that you might eventually use as a cohort and also keep the Apprentice benefit of summoning a cohort of half your level (if it’s a 10th level wizard or 10th level cleric, it’s still powerful enough) leaves a bit of a bad taste on the mouth. Problem is, even without the cohorts, I see a minion-mancer on the works (Planar Binding for Babau, which are pretty nasty guys) mixed with the cohorts (which you claim you abandon, which isn’t so bad but still leaves the aftertaste; it’s like aspartame) means at any moment you could be handling three people. That’s the main course, plus a bittersweet entrée and a tangy cocktail, all in one. Leadership is banned for a good reason; while Planar Binding might be kosher, and your attempts to drop away the cohorts to prevent multiple character manipulation help a bit, the fact that Mentor (and Apprentice – Entertainer) is a mini-Leadership in the works doesn’t seem like a proper way to handle a valid need (aka, Perform as a class skill, though I recall Perform can be gained as a class skill through other means).

    Aside from that? I’m trying to figure your actual total Intelligence score. I don’t see it, though I can assume it’s over 18 because you want Int to be the highest score, and because you have Insightful Reflexes to have a superior Reflex score. That’s a bad oversight, because it doesn’t show exactly how powerful is your character, and whether it could qualify for certain feats and abilities. Placing the spells you intend to use is a good idea, because most people went for spontaneous spellcasters or left their spellbooks blank, meaning I know which spells I could ban if I were your DM (though probably I wouldn’t, because, believe it or not, I’m a pretty easygoing DM). It’s pretty evident (which is what hurts your Originality) what’s your focus, which is evidently spellcasting, because of the huge amount of boosts you seek to add to the build (Prayer Beads, Archmage, Spell Focus, etc.)


    Score: 2 (if curious, try to see if there’s errata for it, no matter how bad WotC was with errata on 3.5, and no matter how bad it may be with 4th Edition. The use of items and the suggestion of the existence of cohorts are also bad for your score. Still, I don’t hit your score any more because, aside from that and the invisible ability scores, it’s a well organized build.)

    Use of Secret Ingredient
    Spoiler
    Show
    Much like I said the other build that used a gray elf wizard; what does the Arcane Dilettante brings to the table that more levels of Wizard wouldn’t bring? Fortunately, your build gets slightly more use of the class, if only sparingly.

    First, the fact that you at least try to have a nice Spot score. Problem is, with spontaneous divinations the entire concept of Spot goes down the drain. There’s a strong point you make, though, and that is relying on otherwise common senses as a fallback when magical senses are fooled; the problem is that there’s no Listen to support that Spot, nor you make good use of Search or Survival, and the only reason you have Spot in there is because you need to make good use of Heightened Senses. It’s almost like the great use you give to Perform (string instruments).

    One thing I like, though, is how gaining all skills as class skills, plus the huge Int score, allows you to suddenly boost some skills, such as the aforementioned Spot and Autohypnosis. I would have liked to see that ability exploited a bit more, but at least it was considered.

    What wasn’t considered was the rest. By the time you get them, and with Spontaneous Divination at bay, any other sense seems redundant. Scent isn’t boosted, nor does Blindsense, and they exist only to support your already formidable divination abilities (since you get a Blessed Book chock-full of them, I suppose…) The fact that you could already use Clairvoyance/Clairaudience with your spell list doesn’t help a lot. Another thing is the fact that the inability to determine your total Charisma score means the full potential of Enthrall cannot be measured, and getting some daily uses of Good Hope seems rather inconsequential when you have such stuff like Shapechange on your hands.

    What this means is that, while you did good use of the feats and the spell progression (like everybody), the only saving grace in the use of this PrC was…well, the ability to gain Autohypnosis. Yet, when you compare it to gaining more levels on another class (say, more Wizard levels, or even Incantatrix if you really wanted to push it), AD simply can’t compare. For starters: more Wizard levels would have allowed you to have full caster level, which would have allowed you to ignore Practiced Spellcaster and still get CL 29 on your spells (if using Prayer Beads of Karma). That’s one feat slot that would have been empty, with another that could have been covered with your wizard bonus feat slots. Good Reflex saves and a higher Hit Dice don’t compare to slightly delayed spellcasting and meager abilities (in your case, because your magical senses are far better than anything else). Again; there’s merit in choosing the class, but it really doesn’t showcase why Ardent Dilettante is a better choice. Like most builds, it’s really showcasing why X or Y class is a great choice. And that’s bad, because it’s repeating the same mistakes done by the other build, meaning that choosing Wizard was really a bad idea.


    Score: 1.5 (getting Autohypnosis was pretty much the best thing you got from the class, aside from the higher amount of HP and Reflex saves. Going 1 level of Psion and then Cerebremancer would have gotten you roughly the same amount of Autohypnosis, plus 6th level psionic powers. While it’s not the best form of comparison, the fact is that you could have skipped any level of Ardent Dilettante, gotten Wizard levels, and you wouldn’t have lost anything because what you gained was not truly impressive. One sentence is not enough to change one’s mind.)

    Overall: 9.5 (2.375)
    Sometimes, the most powerful, classic or simplest choice isn’t the best. Sometimes, a bit more dedication can truly save a build from despair. Sadly, while the story is pretty nice what with all the references to old songs from the Rolling Stones and…Aerosmith, IIRC; don’t take me as a music expert in any case…doesn’t seem to fit with what the build really is: Yet Another Wizard/Archmage build ™. I will admit: Ardent Dilettante is a hard meat to please, but some effort could have been done in spicing things up a bit. Even if it would have been a bit counter-intuitive, even a dip into Virtuoso would have caused a major difference; as is, the fact that someone else did something very similar except using another DMG PrC feels like people went the easy road for an “unpleasing” PrC.



    Designate 32-20-53-65-6e-73-65-73
    Spoiler
    Show
    Originality
    Spoiler
    Show
    Warforged seem to be a popular choice nowadays, but that’s reasonable; with the loads of benefits you get, including composite plating, the immunities (energy drain comes as a good one) and the fortification. The way the race was used, though, is quite unique. So let me go carefully on this because it shocked me a bit…

    A WARFORGED WHO THINKS HE’S A DRAGON!?!??!?!? Or well, dragon-ish? I just have to laugh; that was certainly surprising, because it’s a clever way to add a draconic feel to a creature who’s just barely living. Well, it lives but for all purposes it has a life expectancy well beyond mortal comprehension, and the “barely” fits in because they’re usually short-lived (as in, no more than 2 years of existence or such, arguably 20 years at most).

    There’s another thing I liked. The base classes are quite definitely non-spellcasting based, since even the Ranger went for the spells. However, the way you got your spells (through Prestige Classes) certainly gives a different feel to the build, because there’s a unified theme behind the build (a warrior which had knowledge of special techniques, awakening draconic potential in its body and devoting almost exclusively to the dragon deities) which may or may not contrast with Ardent Dilettante (though I can figure that might not be the case, but we’ll see if that stands in.)

    What I can say, though, is that the story is a bit too short. I say this because it’s full of promise; Aasterinian is not a common deity to choose, given that it’s one best fit to bards; points for Ardent Dilettante, not enough points for sense given that the character is a warrior first and foremost. The last parts of the story seem like Designate has a really good patron, because I would have expected a joke from Aasterinian (or maybe that’s Hlal, but they’re pretty similar on that regard). I liked the idea that Aasterinian sponsors what little magic the character knows (it gives an idea that you thought well how to add Dragon Devotee to the mix of abilities), but I would have refined the backstory a bit more, possibly telling how Designate (or D32, as you wish to call the character) experienced death, what was the first experience of smell (since Warforged don’t smell), and so on. This is not a grave oversight, but one that wasn’t peculiarly exploited because the feeling of the build’s fluff was having a character who has no need to breathe, eat, smell or sense to suddenly experience those abilities.


    Score: 4.5 (the backstory was well thought, and it’s certainly a bizarre entry, but I would have really liked to see how the tale fit with the fluff of the character. I could see it as phenomenal, because while Warforged are common, the choice of a creature who has no need to sense as the race meant for a PrC that’s all about senses definitely has promise; it’s the choice, not the propensity, that matters here, and a bit more fluff would have garnished the plate so nicely. All in all, a wonderful, refreshing build.)

    Power
    Spoiler
    Show
    With two Wizards, a Knight of the Weave, a Sublime Chord and a Sha’ir, your build certainly seems the weakest of them all. Pious Templar gives a nice amount of 4th level spells, and being a chaotic character, you could certainly qualify for a non-Paladin spell list (though it’ll end up as either Paladin or Blackguard, never thinking that chaotic deities have no need for spells such as Magic Circle against Chaos or so on), meaning you’d get some of the nice spells on Spell Compendium and quite probably on other places (though Paladins outdo Blackguards on that regard.) The faster access yet more limited progression, alongside with the spellcasting you gain from Dragon Devotee (1st level Sorcerer spellcasting) means your spellcasting is not your forte.

    So, we go to the physical, and observe the mixture between Fighter and Warblade, with a very limited choice of maneuvers. That means you have, at best, 2nd level maneuvers (not 3rd level), which is a very strong hit (because most 3rd level maneuvers are awesome, plus you could have gained either Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Tactics, two amazing maneuvers that define the power of the Warblade). Most of this reflects on Elegance, but they dent your power quite well.

    Thus, when observing the power of your build, I observe that your character is basically a resilient charger build, which while decent (what with Great Falchion as a weapon, meaning a huge chance for critical hits), certainly isn’t the most powerful. This combines with the Ardent Dilettante’s poor BAB, which as you may observe means you never reach the coveted 16 BAB that most warriors seek after. Knowledge Devotion (a melee favorite) helps somewhat, but it isn’t the best way to increase your damage potential. Adamantine Body and Improved Fortification are excellent defenses, though, but not enough because you need to reinforce your non-AC defenses (Reflex and Will, specifically will because replacing with Concentration once per day is not the best defense).

    Again, while it’s not a bad build at all, the fact that others pretty much exceeded the expectations indirectly harms your build in more ways than one. It’s a good attempt, but unfortunately what you gain is not enough to ensure you’ll survive all 20 levels, considering you can only do enough without the acquisition of better maneuvers. Which…is exactly the thing: while others pretty much concentrated their power in hopes of max-ing the Power score, your build dilated that power so much with spellcasting that neither of the choices is really that good.

    Finally, there’s a thing I should mention on Elegance which will also cause problems for you…


    Score: 2 (a resilient charger when you have two entries that shatter the foundations of the world, with a third that makes the planes shake in fear, and others which have a very strong power potential hurts your build. The power of the build is diluted between melee and spellcasting, and while Pious Templar has a nice amount of spells, what you get from Dragon Devotee is not enough to justify.)

    Elegance
    Spoiler
    Show
    Let’s start with the first problem. Normally, I place this on both Power and Elegance, but this is mostly an issue of Elegance: while others mostly suggested magic items to use and boost themselves, you make them pretty much mandatory. First, you state the full amount of Strength you’d get from the Belt of Magnificence and the manual of Strength, meaning you expect to do that damage pretty much reliably. It’s just one tome compared to six, but it’s still a bad idea. Second, you depend on the Belt of Magnificence to cast your divine spells, since your Wisdom is 10 (recall that? You can’t cast spells of a specific level if you don’t have a Wisdom score of 10 + the specified level; Pious Templars don’t get 0 level spells, hence they need a minimum of 11 on the score to cast spells.) While you’d still qualify for Ardent Dilettante (you’re technically capable to, you’re just unable to do so naturally), that’s a huge hit to your Power, given that the strongest thing you have on your list are divine spells. A Strength of 14 would have solved most of those situations and given you a nicer starting Will score. However, and this is the third: some DMs may consider that the inability to actually cast 1st level divine spells makes you ineligible for the 7th level and higher degrees of Ardent Dilettante, which is generally a bad idea because most people actually did the same, albeit unintentionally (making this officially the hardest hurdle to bypass, and here I was thinking Strength-based skills were the real trouble…)

    The rest are just minor nitpicks. For example: Weapon Focus (scimitars)? Shouldn’t it be Weapon Focus (great falchions)? What’s worse is that the feat grants very little (if not anything, but hey, it’s a free +1 to your attack rolls, so what the hey…) and doesn’t seem to serve for anything in particular. This is mostly tied to what I see is a bigger problem: feat selection.

    So…I shouldn’t go and deck you because your feat selection seems poor, and I won’t, but this is mostly advice. Two levels of Fighter are nice, but two levels of Warblade were just as good; the extra level of Dragon Devotee is really what bugs me off. You see, you get four feats (two from Dragon Devotee, two from Fighter) with that, and all are considered Fighter bonus feats which assists you a lot on the power potential of your character. However, and this is what I find most disappointing, is that you could have gone without the 4th level of Dragon Devotee (you have a slam that deals just as much damage as your claws) and gone one extra level of Warblade, which would have allowed you to replace one 1st level maneuver with a 3rd level maneuver (thus allowing you to gain a crucial 3rd level maneuver), plus a 3rd level stance which would have helped a LOT on your power. Completing Ardent Dilettante in one go is not a bad idea and is actually elegant, but the way you dealt with Warblade seems to be inelegant from an optimization perspective, and…guess what, this is an optimization exercise, so it would be reasonable to deck you points for that. But things like that happen, so I won’t go and deck you for that…well, not much anyways. You already got decked for that in Power, so I won’t go and be abusive with decking in Elegance as well.

    However, the use of magic items (as I’ve stated) as if assuming you have free access to them is a no-go. Maybe a +1 weapon would be acceptable, but great falchions aren’t particularly common; you might find someone who sells that weird weapon, probably the rare smith that sells a masterwork version, but not one that sells a magic version (and much less one with a score higher than 1). And stuff like Belt of Magnificence + tomes are really disliked in my opinion as they distract a lot from the sheer power of some builds, so I can give a huge hit on that regard (given that you did quite well with Adamantine Build and Improved Fortification.)

    There’s one thing that bugs me as well: why Warblade? Is it because of the huge amount of skills you could choose? I really, really, really saw this character as a Crusader, from both a fluff and a crunch perspective. You still get Jump, you get Steely Resolve which aids a lot on your defensive capabilities, you get Devoted Spirit maneuvers which aid on your healing when you get Improved Fortification, plus you could be a Crusader/Pious Templar of Aasterinian, AND you would have gained Indomitable Soul and Zealous Surge to aid that Will save (while probably getting Insightful Reflexes, if you wanted it, for your Reflex saving throws, though personally I would have ignored Reflex entirely). That would have saved you some feats, which you could have taken on Martial Study and Martial Stance and thus increased your power with maneuvers, while making you a very solid tank (DR, high Fortification and resilience all on the first few levels), and also making you less Int-ensive (pun intended) which means your character would be less MAD, hence much more elegant IMO. But again, this is mostly a bug and not something serious.

    Aside from that…sources, sources, sources. Luckily most sources are easy to get (Tome of Battle, Player’s Handbook) but some are rarer (there are three books that have draconic content; guess which one I thought of first with Dragon Devotee? No, it wasn’t Races of the Dragon; it was Dragon Magic and that means something…) and some would be even harder to get (what are the chances that a judge knows Steadfast Determination is in Player’s Handbook II other than someone who has practically memorized the book?). Unlike others, the build seems a bit disorganized, showcasing the build nicely and the spells just as nicely but the rest just…smudged in without a bit of organization, and looking like an afterthought. That’s Elegance as well; the main course might be good, but if the garnish appears on all the wrong places and the plate’s unclean, people won’t eat the food, right? Some people “eat with their eyes”, meaning that anything that’s unpleasing to the eyes certainly won’t be enjoyed, let alone eaten.


    Score: 3 (aside from the scores and the magic items, the build mostly seems like done hastily but without serious troubles. Since I can’t figure if you’re a newbie to the competition or a battle-hardened veteran, the flaws in presentation aren’t something I should, or will, focus in. However, I can focus on some pet peeves of mine, and one of them is quite definitely trying to see if the single-most potent of your abilities is legal or not. Also, the lack of alignment means I dunno which of the lists applies, meaning your power is entirely dependent on alignment. Think about that for a bit when meditating whether minor nitpicks in Elegance are important or not.)

    Use of Secret Ingredient

    Spoiler
    Show
    Being one of the few, if not the only, character who has a clear melee focus for the build, certainly that makes it hard to analyze. The PrC wasn’t meant for melee characters, and most of the other people noticed, but there are a few things I liked that others didn’t capitalize.

    For starters, scent and blindsense. Most of the other competitors had ways to bypass those scores; you, on the other hand, while certainly capable of doing so (I mean, you could have gained Hearing the Air roughly 14 levels before you got blindsense), declined to do so, focusing mostly on hard-gained abilities. While not gaining much advantage from scent or blindsense (other than what other melee characters would, which is great but not that shocking) and not advancing either of the abilities, there’s a real feel that the abilities will be greatly appreciated by the character, since they are abilities that don’t generally exist (Warforged don’t have the ability to breathe, hence they have no sense of smell; they don’t eat, so they don’t have a sense of taste meaning they have no need to use these senses) or that have a thematic feel (because, believe it or not, dragons have blindsense as a racial ability, meaning you get one step closer to dragonkind). The only trouble is that they’re gained late, but that shouldn’t be a predicament because most characters also get it late.

    Heightened Senses sees some utility, mostly because of the options of the Warforged related to other classes. While not definitely advanced, the fact that a melee character is thinking of Spot and Listen definitely says something. The fact that, although not recommended because it’s not only a magic item but also campaign specific, you do have access to the Essence of the Scout (meaning even higher Spot and Listen checks) alongside your natural resilience (I mean, you get lots of Hit Points, Damage Reduction and decent AC) means you make a superb scout. Adding scent makes you a better scout, and blindsense works as a proximity sense for invisible characters, which while still hard to hit, won’t do much because Improved Fortification pretty much ends any troubles with critical hits (aside from Razing Strike which hurts like heck, because it doesn’t care for fortification) or sneak attacks.

    Of all builds, the fact that you don’t have other special senses makes Sense Link quite good. Since you can do a decent (if not superb, as I mentioned) scout, you can alert others through the use of Clairvoyance, serving as a sort of radio transmitter for solo missions. Since you can engage in combat reliably until the time comes where your party reunites, and given Uncanny Dodge (which is a plus for going Warblade) you can’t be surprised that easily, you can engage in a task only a few would normally do, which increases your utility in a dungeon. As well, given that you get some serious boost out of most, having limited uses of Good Hope means you have a pretty solid buff when things get rough.

    The rest, though, is what’s unsurprising. While you definitely expand your Knowledge (and thus make Knowledge Devotion even more useful), you don’t seem to exploit the ability to gain all skills as class skills, specifically getting UMD or UPD (remember, the skill is fine, since it adds to your power). You have a solid advantage in being capable of casting Paladin (or Blackguard, that depends on your alignment) and Sorcerer spells pretty much for free, but the fact that you could expand your buffs with wands or scrolls (whichever you might find) that aren’t from these two lists could have helped immensely. Still, the nice amount of Int and the fact that you complete most skills through the use of Ardent Dilettante means you make good use of the skill points, something which the Warblade gets but most of your other classes lack. The rest is just kinda meh: you won’t make great use of Enthrall because, despite your solid Charisma for spellcasting it’s not the same for DCs, Lore isn’t entirely boosted (no Knowledge – history) meaning you have as much Lore as a Loremaster or Bard, the capstone is gained far too late and you’re actually looking not to die…and well, See it Again which is hard to optimize (if possible at all). One thing I must specify is Seen it Before, because it allows a second Will save against illusions, but your poor Will saves mean you might not have the chance to exploit that (hence, why Crusader would have been better since you’d have two or three rerolls for that save, so to speak). The big predicament was the choice between Pious Templar spells or Sorcerer spells, since Dragon Devotee allowed you to gain more Sorcerer levels. That could have allowed you (Charisma notwithstanding) to gain access to Greater Magic Fang, which would have been incredibly good for your slam attacks (you do remember Warforged have slam attacks, no?) and the claws if you wished to keep them. As I see, you went for divine spells because of your predicament with Adamantine Body, but you could have gained 5th level spells which are just as good, if not better, than the few spells from Pious Templar, which would have gravitated into greater scores in Power (if only 1 point at most).


    Score: 3.5 (while not the best use of Ardent Dilettante, it has something a few other builds seem to lack; an interaction between fluff and mechanics. Scent on a Warforged and blindsense on a Dragon Devotee are things I really liked because they expand upon the strictly mechanical use of the Prestige Class, and some of the other traits were used nicely. However, the big problem is that your build has a melee chassis, which means you’ll have some troubles in your main form of combat, considering your spellcasting is not the greatest of them all and your maneuver choice is skewed.)

    Overall: 13 (3.25)
    The build definitely needs some polishing, but for a character that has almost equal amounts of fluff and crunch well intertwined, it’s a good start. A Warforged that has a desire to experiment beyond what its own body provides, developing draconic traits and then going straight for the PrC that represents the communion with senses is a rather bold move on an optimization challenge. Of course, this being an optimization challenge, the expected power definitely falters, leaving you as a charger that does surprisingly well as a scout. I can’t define whether your build is a first entry on the competition (in which case, good job) or whether you, the competitor, is an experienced individual whom just happens to desire trying something different (which is nice, but not what’s really expected on the competition), but the build has to be polished in order to take advantage of the choices it possesses, such as a good use of maneuvers and the possibility of sorcerer spellcasting. However, it makes for a superb NPC that roleplayers would love to interact, and that primary roleplaying focus makes the build certainly an interesting one to judge.


    --

    And as usual, stats and comments:
    This judging took 35 pages, 24,229 words, 138,706 characters (with 114,698 of those characters not relying on lines or spaces), 1,643 lines and 203paragraphs. Still not the largest document I've written, but certainly beats the earlier judging out of the water.

    Now, Drunken Master was hard, but this PrC was harder. What I was surprised, though, was the set of hidden treasures in the chassis: all skills as class skills with 6+Int class skills (making it a skill-monkey by definition), with 9/10ths spellcasting and d8 HD (making it great for spellcasters, though ironically the abilities just ruin that), making Rangers the clearest option (or Ranger/Bards, which would have had enough Charisma and Wisdom to take advantage of nearly everything; Factotum was clearly a close second). I noticed that most people couldn't seem to clear the hurdle of 7th level, which was slightly more stringent than the prerequisite for level 10th (which is effectively dying...) Some hurdles were cleared nicely (using Favored Soul to qualify for exotic weapons, using Elf to qualify for martial weapons, lots of people went for Swim instead of Climb or Jump), but others were big downers (such as not getting the Strength score, even though pretty much everyone went for Concentration; or the fact that they needed to get both arcane and divine spells, thinking that spell-like abilities were essentially ways to solve that), meaning that the real challenge was meeting the requirements, not trying to optimize the PrC. That might have distracted some of the people, since aside from some spectacular uses of the PrC I noticed pretty much everyone just tried to benefit from the feats, the spellcasting and See it Again. Some were easy to deal with (Bardic Knowledge/Lore for the Lore ability, Quick Reconnoiter and Guerrilla Scout for Spot and Listen, Blind-Fight for the blindsense ability; I liked the use of Imp. Scent and Uncanny Scent through bonus feats, tho) and some which were just impossible to deal with (Enthrall just blew everyone out of the water, but it was really hard to maximize other than being Charisma-SAD).

    Having said that, I presume that everybody must be anxious to point me why some scores need to be better; as usual, place that on chairman Shinken's hands. I think I was more generous than the rest of the judges, given that I've seen some really shaky scores, but maybe that's just me.
    Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
    Now with a comprehensive guide for 3.5 Paladin players porting to Pathfinder. Also available for 5th Edition
    On Lawful Good:
    Quote Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc View Post
    My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.
    T.G. Oskar profile by Specter.

  4. - Top - End - #244
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Where I live.

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    May I comment on my build yet?
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  5. - Top - End - #245
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2006

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    May I comment on my build yet?
    Tradition dictates we do not give away which build is ours until the chairman's "reveal"; if you have concerns about a judges' call, you can forward them to true_shinken.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV. Play as me!


    Spoiler
    Show

  6. - Top - End - #246
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Where I live.

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    I'll wait, then.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  7. - Top - End - #247
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    [FINAL?] TALLIES AFTER FOUR JUDGES (BEFORE DISPUTES)

    {table=head]ENTRY|PLACE|TOTALS|AVERAGE
    Arleigh Skye|GOLD|58.5|3.65625
    Snow|SILVER|57.5|3.59375
    Gabriella|BRONZE|57|3.5625
    V'grax|Fourth|52.5|3.28125
    Aesh Duan Dee|Fifth|46|2.875
    Hazy Vernal Equinox|Sixth|44|2.75
    Annette the Impure|Seventh|43|2.6875
    Designate 32-20-53-65-6e-73-65-73|Eighth|42.5|2.65625
    The Slide|Ninth|41|2.5625[/table]
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Ponies, the Kim Karsdashian of GITP.
    This is what happens when they let me DM:
    Beyond the Horizon IC / OOC
    A Time to Die: Alpha IC / Bravo IC / OOC

  8. - Top - End - #248
    Banned
     
    true_shinken's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    OK, now for disputes. I've yet to receive any votes for honorable mention this round, btw. Attention, judges - disputes for everyone!
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow vs TG
    I have every respect for Oskar's judging, and admire the detail and effort he has put into it all, but I am a little baffled by the discrepency between Use of Secret Ingredient scores. I built Snow around most of the abilities AD has to offer, whilst balancing them with a useful and powerful character, and I seem to have received a 1.5 simply because I chose Wizard as the base class, without taking into consideration the details of my build and tactics.

    My tactics do specify that Snow uses the AD abilities to act as a competent scout as well as a powerful caster, fufilling two party roles whilst making the most of the AD's class abilities. Elven skill bonuses, Heightened Senses, Scent, Blindsense and the resistance to both enchantment and illusion from being an elf and Seen It Before (not to mention excellent saves across the board) all support this character, and were listed in my build.

    Again, I have every respect for the judging, and if this has all been considered already, then so be it, but I am still slightly confused as to how the above is not showcasing the prestige class. Taking another PrC such as his examples of Archmage or Geometer (I do like Geometer) would weaken Snow's abilities as a scout and general spotter, and make him more vulnerable to the spells and attacks that will almost certainly be targetted at him as a major caster. I also assume that qualifiying for AD comes under Elegance, as I see at least one build receiving a high score in UoSI despite not qualifying for higher levels.

    Finally, I would like to add that I think my rulebook library does not extend as far as Oskar's - I was not aware that there were any other Drow gods to choose from!
    Quote Originally Posted by vs vikingofdoomn
    It's a technical point right now, since the last 2 judges seem to have moved me to 1st place, but vikingofdoom did seem to deduct points for something that was legal to do. And a half point is a half point. (shrug)

    Quote Originally Posted by vikingofdoom
    You used the SI fairly well, with the exception that you can't make a wand of Sense Link, do to it not being a spell. Otherwise, everything works.
    Incorrect. A wand can be made from Spell Like Abilities.

    Source (Also DMG, pg 215, top of right column.)

    Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

    A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arleigh vs OMG
    In the judging of Arleigh Skye, OMG mentions that it's hard for an outsider to be raised to qualify for that last level. Revive Outsider from the SpC makes this no more of an issue than for a non-Outstder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesc vs OMG
    Hi there. I believe that OMGPONIES made a few errors in his judgment of Aesc, and I'd like the chance to defend myself. If you could please pass these comments on to him in whatever manner you see fit, I'd appreciate it.

    Dear Mr. PONIES,

    While your analysis is mostly fair, I do feel the need to point out a few things. First, Aesc only uses Disciple of Thrym spells for Sanctified/Corrupt spells for exactly the reasons you mention. Second, while you're right about my ranks in Jump mysteriously disappearing between my spreadsheet and the final post (mea culpa . . . I even took Sudden Leap! I swear I had them and I don't know where they went, but since they weren't in the final build, I will make no effort to protest your ruling), Aesc is nonetheless proficient with the hand crossbow (an exotic weapon) from his rogue days. I don't know if this will sway your opinion one way or the other, but it needed to be said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Annette vs OMG
    Annette:
    (1) This may be splitting hairs, but a good argument can be made that the prostitution in question is not "exploitative or coercive." Without exploitation or coerciveness, there is no reason for an Exalted character to object to them. (2) Succubi are "Always Chaotic Evil," but the Succubus Paladin is the archetype of the Redeemed Evil. "Always" does not seem to mean "always."

    Perhaps it was just me, but I have always read UA as allowing alternate classes. Although I am not able to look now, but I am pretty sure alternate classes (like Paladin of Freedom) have been used before. This would affect Gabriella, Annette, and D32
    Quote Originally Posted by V'grax vs OMG
    If the spell retrieval method is 'a form of preparation', then isn't a Sorcerer's 'a form of preparation' as well? Both can recast spells based on spells known. That would seem to eliminate all casters from using a pair of feats that add to spells known.
    As noted, one strong draw for those feat choices was the thematic fit for both Sha'ir and Blood Magus.

    Also, I'm sorry to inform Jumilk's laptop bit the bullet and she's using a new netbook, so trophies and medals will be a bit late.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2011-02-03 at 12:25 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #249
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    vikingofdoom's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    With regards to the question regarding my ruling, I was working off of the wording in Craft Wand:
    You can create a wand of any 4th level or lower spell that you know.
    Since specific trumps general in terms of conflict, Craft Wand can't create a Wand of Sense Link. The text describing wands would support my statement of spell-like abilities not functioning in a wand.

  10. - Top - End - #250
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2010

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Ick, doesn't that wording apply to pretty much every item creation feat? Would suck for pre-12 Warlocks, I guess.

  11. - Top - End - #251
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    vikingofdoom's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    No, that wording just applies to Brew Potion, Craft Wand, and Scribe Scroll. The rest just need prerequisites met to make.

  12. - Top - End - #252
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    gbprime's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Suburban Dystopia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Arleigh vs OMG
    In the judging of Arleigh Skye, OMG mentions that it's hard for an outsider to be raised to qualify for that last level. Revive Outsider from the SpC makes this no more of an issue than for a non-Outstder.
    Actually, by SRD, Outsiders with the (Native) subtype can be raised or resurrected as normal.
    .
    Ding, You've Got Trophies!
    Spoiler
    Show

    Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist but you have ceased to live. - Samuel Clemens

    Oh, and DFTBA.

  13. - Top - End - #253
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    @Snow
    Spoiler
    Show
    If the build was made to be a decent scout (if not excellent), I might had noticed. I took a good look at the build, and nothing told me you were a good scout. For starters...

    1) A good scout has good Listen and Spot checks, and probably Track and Survival OR Search. Your base Listen and Spot checks are effectively the same as those of someone who took them as cross-class skills all the time, plus one rank. That leaves a low base score on both of them, with a 0 Wisdom modifier to add to the ranks (unless you used Owl's Wisdom, but that doesn't seem to be the case).

    2) A good scout might have some ways to improve those gained abilities. For starters, some of the builds went and improved the scent ability to make it a good proximity sense (as well as a scouting sense, nearly doubling that sensor's range); others just maxed Spot and Listen to a ridiculous degree. Thing is, they at least showed they cared for the scouting abilities, even if they didn't have other nice moves such as Invisibility. Sense Link seems somewhat like a relay, and Heightened Senses improves that, but I looked for things that a scout would take besides what the PrC has already. The only thing I might have seen was Alertness (from a familiar), and I don't recall you mentioning you had one. Quick Reconnoiter would have been just as nice; Blind-Fight would have been nice because you'd had gained the poor man's blindsight (knowing where the individual was and then having less chances to fail). Note: improving the gained scouting abilities doesn't mean entirely replacing them, which leads to...

    3) A good scout uses the best scouting abilities in its disposal. See: you can't deny someone like, say, Arleigh isn't a good scout. Having Track, a refined sense of smell, impressive Spot and Listen abilities, plus 1st level Ranger spellcasting and See Invisibility to support that means that the character thought of being a scout, and it shows on its work. Slide, on the other hand, wasn't meant to be used as a scout but used the sense abilities in an entirely different way: using them while being an object, where the senses become extremely limited, so it would be helpful to the character and to any hapless fool that drew near; Slide wasn't a scout and doesn't seem to enjoy being one, but his use of senses was definitely surprising. Those are two sides of the same coin (or in this case, PrC); either you use those new senses to become a superb scout, or you use them as a complement for senses you don't have. In your case, your scouting abilities are limited to what few things you gain from your race and skills, plus what pretty much every other Wizard has access to. Loremaster isn't a clear and defined scouting class (Horizon Walker, on the other hand...), and you don't use the secrets to take advantage of that (for example, using a secret to gain more ranks in Spot, Listen or Search, then using the other for, say, Quick Reconnoiter), which would have supported the idea of being a decent scout.

    5) Learn where each form of scouting is more worthwhile based on your class. For example: Spot-and-Listen scouting is best left for early levels, where you have no ranks in Spot OR Listen aside from the bonus you get from being an elf. Once a Wizard gains See Invisibility, scouting invisible creatures makes the greatest benefit of insanely high Spot (looking at invisible creatures and their locations) slightly redundant. Once you get Arcane Sight, you have a sense where you can detect anything under a magical effect or wielding magic items without the need for concentration (hence, you could improve that, but you start boosting Spot and Listen just around the point you enter Loremaster, meaning it's kinda late). Once you get Scrying, you can pretty much scout the entire area without leaving the safety of your sanctum. Those aren't things you got from Ardent Dilettante more than you got them from Wizard spellcasting: when you get Sense Link (a handy "walkie-talkie" for scouts), you already had Clairvoyance on your list several levels ago; when you gained sense, you already had senses that defeated the range of smell eons ago; when you gain Blindsense, you could have just used Limited Wish, pay the hard-earned XP, and duplicate the Blindsight spell from a Cleric or Druid to gain a far better ability with a larger range. Those are more "advanced" tricks for Wizards, but entirely doable, and what makes choosing Ardent Dilettante feel more like "fulfilling the competition's requirement rather than doing something greater with it".

    Trust me, had I found (aside from a mention on the tactics area) some signs that your build was a scout, I would have considered them. What I observed on first instance was a Wizard, not a scout; that doesn't mean a Wizard can't be a good scout (quite the contrary; their spells make a scout cringe) but that because of being a Wizard, your scouting abilities are strikingly different from the norm. You don't send yourself scouting; you send your familiar, well hidden behind Invisibility and Blink spells, using your link to relay information; or, you could just scry and know everything from the safety of your sanctum, forcing your enemies to build protections against your spells; or just call or summon a better scryer. Wizard spells, which you have in spades, make your secondary focus redundant, the life expectancy of your secondary talent expiring just at the moment you start to reinforce it. That's why I can't see the build as a scouter, because you already do it better without having to gain redundant abilities and bonuses to skill points (or gaining bonuses to abilities which are too weak to make a difference, or gaining bonuses to abilities which are far too easily fooled by the time they're halfway beyond decent), just by using your spells. Hence, when I ruminated through your build, the most important things I saw were "more HP, improved spellcasting, Lore, gaining a spell that the character wouldn't otherwise have access"; the rest had good reasons why they could be ignored.

    Now, I could have given you a bit more for "clever use of 'all skills as class skills' class feature", but the only thing in which you exploit it is in Tumble, and perhaps far too late to make it useful. Also: rat gives you a bonus on Fortitude, which while excellent for your saves is actually bad for the idea of making a good scout, when a bat or a hawk would have served as great aerial scouts and also boosted your ability (and made it even greater with Natural Link). So yeah, the scale's inclined to "trying to cover my weaknesses" rather than "be a good scout"; you did a nice job trying to cover your weaknesses with Favored Soul, bonuses to Fortitude, godo Reflex saving throws and decent Con, as well as scent and blindsense for when things were too close, but it didn't make a good scout or something that really could have made Ardent Dilettante a crucial choice over, say, more levels of Wizard or Loremaster.
    Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
    Now with a comprehensive guide for 3.5 Paladin players porting to Pathfinder. Also available for 5th Edition
    On Lawful Good:
    Quote Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc View Post
    My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.
    T.G. Oskar profile by Specter.

  14. - Top - End - #254
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    monkeysammich's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    I just wanted to say thank you to all the judges. I have learned a lot this first time around and look forward to using the tips and critique next time.
    Advocate for S.U.P.E.R.!
    (Society for Undersized People Earning Respect)

    Initiate Ref for the Arena! I'm Participating!

    Monkey Eating a Sandwich Avatar courtesy of Akrim.elf... Thanks!

  15. - Top - End - #255
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Where I live.

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    I learned a lot too, even though I was semi-joking around while making my entry.

    Eh, I'll take the next one seriously, though.

    But still, mad props to you all.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  16. - Top - End - #256
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Kitchener/Waterloo
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    T.G. Oskar, it's interesting that you mention how tricky it is to optimize Enthrall. Probably the only ability of Ardent Dilettante that the hippy Apostle of Peace I considered submitting optimized was Enthrall, using Vow of Nonviolence and Ability Focus to up the DC and Diplomancy to make it an SoL.
    Last edited by Urpriest; 2011-02-03 at 05:06 PM.
    Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor

    Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    One of the unwritten rules of Giantitp is that Urpriest is always right.
    Trophy!
    Spoiler
    Show


    original Urpriest (by Andraste)

  17. - Top - End - #257
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    T.G. Oskar, it's interesting that you mention how tricky it is to optimize Enthrall. Probably the only ability of Ardent Dilettante that the hippy Apostle of Peace I considered submitting optimized was Enthrall, using Vow of Nonviolence and Ability Focus to up the DC and Diplomancy to make it an SoL.
    Well, considering that you made use of two options that don't depend on actually being on Apostle of Peace, you could have added those to any build that had some serious focus on Enchantment and Divination. But it's mostly how you'd use an ability that certainly comes out of the blue regarding the PrC (Joie de Vivre relates to that "feelgood" vibe of the Society; scent and blindsense are meant to be enhanced senses along with Heightened Senses, Lore...well, you know more about how to please people and where to find the next sensation). Though, Enthrall is mostly an out-of-combat ability, what with all the requirements, and what it mostly does is halt their actions (as per the Pied Piper).

    Liked the idea of Enthrall + Diplomancy. Mix Bard in that (Enthrall -> Fascinate -> Diplomacy check) and you got one serious way to lower the required Diplomacy check (heck, do it as Exemplar and you can do it with Perform...) But yeah, it's tricky because it's pretty much an orphan feature, not supported by the class itself and requiring such devotion that it makes other class features falter in comparison.
    Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
    Now with a comprehensive guide for 3.5 Paladin players porting to Pathfinder. Also available for 5th Edition
    On Lawful Good:
    Quote Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc View Post
    My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.
    T.G. Oskar profile by Specter.

  18. - Top - End - #258
    Banned
     
    true_shinken's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    One last dispute before the reveal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Designate vs vikingofdoom
    While watching the scores, I couldn't help but notice that viking thought D32 didn't qualify for Dragon Devotee. I wonder why, because he does qualify:

    First, the race requires him to be a non-dragon (which he is, being a construct with the living construct subtype), plus he doesn't have the draconic template. What's more, the draconic template itself, while inherited (Dragon Devotee clearly ignores this statement), requires the creature only to be living AND corporeal. In that case, Warforged fits both because it's a living construct (having both traits of living, corporeal creatures and constructs) and has a body (with composite plating and so forth). This might be the biggest point of contention, but again, the point is addressed since the Prestige Class has no restrictions in that matter. Furthermore, there's no errata on Races of the Dragon that states the opposite.

    As for the rest: the BAB requirement is fulfilled by the 5 levels within Warblade and Fighter, the Knowledge (arcana) requirement is fulfilled from level 1 (having expended 4 points as a cross-class ability) and the Speak Language requirement is fulfilled through having 1 "rank" in the class; while it's not specified that the character took it on Draconic, by virtue of having 1 wild card language slot you might figure that it qualifies for such.

  19. - Top - End - #259
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    vikingofdoom's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    With regards to the challenge, I may have had a different dragon based PrC in mind with my judging, but I will need to know what book Dragon Devotee is in to figure out whether or not I am correct in my assessment.
    Last edited by vikingofdoom; 2011-02-04 at 10:53 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #260
    Banned
     
    true_shinken's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Quote Originally Posted by vikingofdoom View Post
    With regards to the challenge, I may have had a different dragon based PrC in mind with my judging, but I will need to know what book Dragon Devotee is in to figure out whether or not I am correct in my assessment.
    Races of the Dragon

  21. - Top - End - #261
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    vikingofdoom's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Updated my judging to reflect that DD is now legal, but still deducted points for not having ranks in a Con-based skill. Mark for D32 is now 13 points from me.

  22. - Top - End - #262
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Fayetteville, AR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Quote Originally Posted by vikingofdoom View Post
    With regards to the challenge, I may have had a different dragon based PrC in mind with my judging, but I will need to know what book Dragon Devotee is in to figure out whether or not I am correct in my assessment.
    Wait, you judged an entry without looking at the relevant class? You tried to recall the class from memory rather than actually opening the book? That's...

    That certainly doesn't portray your ability to judge in a positive light, to say the least.

  23. - Top - End - #263
    Banned
     
    true_shinken's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Quote Originally Posted by aethernox View Post
    That certainly doesn't portray your ability to judge in a positive light, to say the least.
    Aethernox, refrain from questioning a judges' judgement like this. Judging takes time, requires effort and the judges are making this for our enjoyment. Everyone commits mistakes every now and then. If you disagree about something a judge did, PM me and I'll tell the judge.

  24. - Top - End - #264
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Fayetteville, AR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    I didn't mean to question his judgment, per se, but rather the effort and research he put into judging Designate, at the very least. I'm not saying that he's necessarily a poor judge of characters, but it is worrisome that he didn't know which book one of the entries used, and it would have been unfair to Designate if the mistake wasn't caught.

  25. - Top - End - #265
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Quote Originally Posted by aethernox View Post
    I didn't mean to question his judgment, per se, but rather the effort and research he put into judging Designate, at the very least. I'm not saying that he's necessarily a poor judge of characters, but it is worrisome that he didn't know which book one of the entries used, and it would have been unfair to Designate if the mistake wasn't caught.
    He may have been mistaking Dragon Devotee with Dragon Disciple--a mistake I almost made myself, and a class for which D32 did not qualify. The point is, the mistake was caught, disputed and corrected. That's why we have the process that we do. Let's not make this into something ugly by questioning any judge's effort.

    Speaking of the process that we have, here are my responses to the disputes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Arleigh Skye
    In the judging of Arleigh Skye, OMG mentions that it's hard for an outsider to be raised to qualify for that last level. Revive Outsider from the SpC makes this no more of an issue than for a non-Outstder.
    Ah, a spell of which I was unaware. My apologies. Unfortunately, that was just a judge's note, and no deduction had been taken from your or any other outsider in this round. Also, gbprime, thanks for your note on native outsiders...I always forget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesc
    Dear Mr. PONIES,

    While your analysis is mostly fair, I do feel the need to point out a few things. First, Aesc only uses Disciple of Thrym spells for Sanctified/Corrupt spells for exactly the reasons you mention. Second, while you're right about my ranks in Jump mysteriously disappearing between my spreadsheet and the final post (mea culpa . . . I even took Sudden Leap! I swear I had them and I don't know where they went, but since they weren't in the final build, I will make no effort to protest your ruling), Aesc is nonetheless proficient with the hand crossbow (an exotic weapon) from his rogue days. I don't know if this will sway your opinion one way or the other, but it needed to be said.
    First of all, this is the first and awesomest time I've ever been addressed as Mr. Ponies. I love it. I did forget that the hand crossbow was exotic until seeing it in another build--my mistake for not deleting that part. Still, the missing Jump ranks are what really did you in, and my score stands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annette The Impure
    (1) This may be splitting hairs, but a good argument can be made that the prostitution in question is not "exploitative or coercive." Without exploitation or coerciveness, there is no reason for an Exalted character to object to them. (2) Succubi are "Always Chaotic Evil," but the Succubus Paladin is the archetype of the Redeemed Evil. "Always" does not seem to mean "always."

    Perhaps it was just me, but I have always read UA as allowing alternate classes. Although I am not able to look now, but I am pretty sure alternate classes (like Paladin of Freedom) have been used before. This would affect Gabriella, Annette, and D32
    In response to your first point, a good argument can be made for your case. However, in your own backstory you mentioned that some customers got violent, making me think it was still "exploitative and coercive," even if you dealt with them. Even with a lenient DM, there are other acts (lying and pretending to be a prostitute, KILLING people and raising them as your DOMINATED spawn) that are in violation of your code. Nonetheless, you weren't deducted for your code, so no change to scoring.

    In response to your second point, I'm slightly confused--you mention succubi, but I thought Annette was a wraith spawn. Straight from Emancipated Spawn, it mentions that you can revert to your alignment after your creator is slain, but while a dominated spawn, you're evil. No paladin powers, no exalted feats, no ifs ands or buts.

    In response to your final point, the Iron Chef competition does allow variant classes from UA. However, individual judges have different feelings about them. For my judging, I realize that some DMs ban anything from Unearthed Arcana. In my criteria, I mention that I won't give a 4 or higher for elegance to anything that relies on a UA variant, but I won't deduct any points if it's simply mentioned in a Notes or Adaptations section of your entry. I noted both Gabriella and D32's entries for their use of UA variants as well, FWIW.

    Quote Originally Posted by V'Grax
    If the spell retrieval method is 'a form of preparation', then isn't a Sorcerer's 'a form of preparation' as well? Both can recast spells based on spells known. That would seem to eliminate all casters from using a pair of feats that add to spells known.
    As noted, one strong draw for those feat choices was the thematic fit for both Sha'ir and Blood Magus.
    Ah, yes. It pained me to put this in my judging, and I had a feeling that it would be disputed. The main problem I have with considering sha'irs as spontaneous casters is that in Dragon Compendium itself, the parallel to a wizard is drawn. I'm at work so I don't have the Dragon Compendium reference at hand, but in the section discussing spell retrieval it says something along the lines of: "once retrieved, spells stay in your memory much like the spells in a wizard's spellbook," or something to that effect. Because of that, I had to evaluate the spell retrieval method against true spontaneous casters, and it seems to me that it's not truly spontaneous. The spontaneous casters (sorcerers, et al) say "He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time..." but the sha'ir must jump through a few hoops just to grab their spells for the day. My judging stands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Ponies, the Kim Karsdashian of GITP.
    This is what happens when they let me DM:
    Beyond the Horizon IC / OOC
    A Time to Die: Alpha IC / Bravo IC / OOC

  26. - Top - End - #266
    Banned
     
    true_shinken's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    With that, I believe our dispute round is concluded. I believe I may make the reveal now, yes? (I'm waiting a second for someone else to realize I'm missing something)

  27. - Top - End - #267
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    vikingofdoom's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    I did indeed mistake Dragon Devotee for Dragon Disciple, an event primarily caused by my not having RotD to check through. My judging is complete, and if no one raises any more concerns, I look forward to the reveal.

  28. - Top - End - #268
    Banned
     
    true_shinken's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Time for the great reveal. vikingofdoom really changed D32's position with that dispute!

    In 1st place, we have gbprime's Arleigh Skye! Looks like Akal Saris and OMGPonies are looking at some good competition for 'master of Iron Chef'!
    In 2nd place, we have Xodion's Snow.
    In 3rd place, we have kestrel404's Gabriella.
    In 4th place, we have Amphetryon's V'grax.
    In 5th place, we have monkeysammich's Designate 32-20-53-65-6e-73-65-73.
    In 6th place, we have Zaq's Aesh Duan Dee. He also gets our honorable mention award.
    In 7th place, we have The Gilded Duke's "Hazy" Vernal Equinox.
    In 8th place, we have Amechra's Anette the Impure.
    And in 9th place, we have Rancor's The Slide.
    I really enjoyed all the builds. "Hazy" had the best presentation, IMHO.
    Contratulations to all contestants! Competition was really high. Thanks to all judges, contestants and guests. Stay tuned for Iron Chef XVIII.

    As I mentioned before, trophies will be late for this one. Sorry.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2011-02-04 at 02:10 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #269
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Xodion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    UK

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Congratulations to all the other contestants, especially gbprime, a well-deserved winner . Thanks to all the judges as well, for the effort they put in.

    Having had time to reflect, I regret my dispute about scouting and the like, and Oksar's assesment was very accurate. I think I was just a bit desperate to snatch a late victory but I guess 2nd is pretty good for a first effort!
    DM: You exit the temple. Cleric, roll a knowledge(religion) check...
    Cleric: *passes* "Ah yes, now I recognise it, it was a temple to the god of traps!"
    Thief: *punches Cleric*

    Iron Chef Contest Gallery:
    Spoiler
    Show
    IC XVII: Snow (Silver)
    IC XX: Sir Karel (Bronze)
    IC XXXII: 'Aundair' Yannedge-Owens (Gold)
    IC XXXII: Sir Arminel Rayne (Bronze)
    IC XXXIX: Hardy (Bronze)


  30. - Top - End - #270
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    monkeysammich's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

    Thank you to everyone... I really enjoyed making D32 and got so carried away with the IDEA of it... that it turned out really sloppy. I now have a template I'll be using for further entries that will be much more polished... include tactics, questionable decisions... and most importantly... sources ;)

    I did have a lot of fun trying to make a Melee build out of a severly non-melee class. I started with Cloistered Cleric/Loremaster/AD... then went Rogue/Trapsmith/Temple Raider/AD ... The first didn't flow as well and the second I couldnt make "feel" right. I probably should've gone with the rogue :)

    For the Dragon Devotee thing... It's a pretty rare class and I dont mind that the mistake was made... I pointed it out to the Chairman and it was resolved. No harm, no foul...

    Thanks again to all the judges, and I look forward to trying to "wow" you all with my next entry.
    Advocate for S.U.P.E.R.!
    (Society for Undersized People Earning Respect)

    Initiate Ref for the Arena! I'm Participating!

    Monkey Eating a Sandwich Avatar courtesy of Akrim.elf... Thanks!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •